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  • Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    I have some random comments on the preview, mostly page by page stream of consciousness:

    Cover: Oooh, pretty colors. Big shiney objects please me, even if they are impossibly large chandelier earrings. Upper left-hand corner, did someone leave their mug of blood on the art before posting it? The woman shown is a vampire experiencing pleasure. Oh, wait, is she dead... a victim of a vampire in a pool of her own blood? Oh, wait! It's visual ambiguity. Irony. Okay, high-concept makes me happy. Nice visual compostion to guide the viewer through the clues. (See I can say nice things aboutV5. I'm not just an aged fanboy who hates change. Remember, that for later.)

    Intro: Good news, they have officially moved on from calling it VV. They only did it for about V minutes, but I was white-knuckling having to explain to new players that the second V was a number.

    The Top Secret Thingie:
    Good summary of Vampirism 101 for new players. Nicely done, and good visuals. Reminds me of Changeling, which was, imho, the prettiest layout of a WW game.

    The content and tone is not even close to what a professional document would look like. "Sexually deviant individuals" would be a career-killer in most government jobs. Why is there a bunch of unrelated stuff grouped under 11? Why does 13 say "N", then say "inconclusive"? If this is the level of professionalism in the Second Inquisition, I think vampires will be okay.

    One small visual quibble, if you are going to simulate hand-written marginalia, make it more easily legible. This is especially important for people who's first language is not English. This an rpg, not a word puzzle.

    Also, the comments don't match the mechanics. "Nobody dies from staking!" They do if they've been tortured for a long time, and are almost dead, then staked. A chunk of wood in your chest is still damage.

    Please, as a favor, some page numbers, please. I know it's pedestrian and looks like one of the old-timey book-things, but it is helpful. At some point, I would like to use an index to find this page during play, and how does that work without page numbers?

    Next Page:
    re: page numbers... is this page 68, or is that only in the torn off book page. Seriously, at some point I am going to be looking something up, and this layout will be pissing me the f--- off.

    Why, in fictional worlds can no one seem to make a coffee-cup that doesn't leak in a ring-shape when you set it down? Your artists have used this twice in four pages so far. It's hackneyed.

    Concepts
    So named because it presents "Concepts", rather than what the rest of the book does?

    para.1: It's a squat house attic, with a concrete floor. That is one over-engineered squat-house. What was it before it was a squat, a missile silo?

    Yay, a page number! Pie for you! (Notice how nice I am. Don't get used to it.)

    Page 34
    para 1: Actually at the end of the night, they slip into a coma and humans are okay. Save your cutesie turns of phrase for when they make sense.

    This should be the reviewers' quote of choice "... all the rules are different..."

    para 4: Grammar Nerd Time: Pick a person and stick with it. Third person is awesome. Second person is awesome. Second and a half person in one paragraph is just sloppy. The sentence with "police brutality" is... complicated from a writing standpoint. Mixed metaphor alert: highlighting something shouldn't make it darker. Upside, the editors wisely put all of this page's bad writing in one paragraph for easy reference. So, yay?

    para 6: I take that back. Somebody wrote "give of their undying blood to people", and an ambiguous pronoun in one sentence.

    para 7: "This is not a roleplaying game where you play good guys." Or good writers, it would seem.

    para 9: This paragraph ends on a comma, which I get is due to the "selected pages" thing, but creates a hilarious segue. "You can use it as a fictional space to explore terrible things," like?

    Kindred Fashion
    Oh, their fashion sense isn't that terrible of a thing.

    Why does a rose print dress say "diva"? Really, it makes me think of a Sunday school teacher.

    I enjoy this section as a fun break from heavier matters. I just hope there aren't too many of them, which could create a halting rhythm in the book. I would like to have seen a shout-out to vampires who don't adapt quite fast enough. At my age, I find myself sometimes looking around and realizing that absolutely no one is wearing what I have on. When did polo shirts begin to make people ask you for help in stores? Not every vampire is a cool kid.

    64: Brujah
    Nice portrait work, and I like the multi-name thing. One universal name everywhere for all time was one of my pet peeves before.

    65
    para 3: What is a "maladjusted immigrants rejected by the society that should protect them"? I'm not saying I dislike this, it's just I don't get it. Are they rejected from the society they left or the one they are entering? What sort of maladjusted? It sounds like a word soup.

    para 4: "On many occasions, the latter are Embraced from former gender studies or sociology students, those who have survived near-death experiences, and people who have in other ways suffered and endured great personal loss." Grammar Nerd Time again! Okay, this sentence can be read as saying that former (not current) gender studies and sociology students count - definitionally - as people who have suffered and endured great loss. (Tuition's high, but not jut for them!) And, since when do the Brujah care about NDE's? Oh, and "survived" is what differentiates near-death from death-death, so "survived" is redundant.

    65
    Finally! Brujah paper dolls! I have wanted some of those for years. I'm gonna put the blue haired girl's head on the guy with the bandanna, that way he can see. And the leopard pumps (Kitten heels! Get it?) on the skinhead. Did no one tell the boys that with New Celerity you automatically pass all balancing rolls, so you can finally fight in heels? Combat boots are sooo V20!

    66
    Okay, umm, archetypes... I'm confused. Are these actual groups, like the Camps in Werewolf, or just social categories? In-world are people conscious of them? Going by the Brujah archetypes the clan consists of "anyone who is easily annoyed whether they act on it or not".

    Disciplines. I really like the little write-up giving a rationale for each discipline. Well-done.

    Bane. We don't know what this is, except that VtR did it already. If most of what's new in V5 turns out to be cribbed from VtR, why do both exist?

    Chain-Mail Lady Page
    1. You do not look at all comfortable in that outfit, ma'am. I hope they turned off the air-conditioning for this shoot. I highly suggest you not use Auspex in that.... I'm gonna go with dress. Also, your Mickey Mouse hat isn't on straight.

    2. I know next to nothing about the international sales of books. I am also not a prude. Really, I'm not. I was doing S&M positive, safe-sex education with ACT-UP before many of the people reading this were born. But... is nudity like this going to cause unnecessary problems with distribution? Are there potential markets where this won't be able to be on the shelf? What does this mean for bringing young people into the game? I gotta say, I have friends with teenagers and tweens, and if one of them asked me to play V5, I'd have to think about it before handing them this book. I once ran an all-ages Buffy RPG game with a neighbor family who had never played an rpg before, but loved the show. It was a hoot! I get it, I get it, Vampire is edgier than thou, but, no, on second thought, I would not hand a twelve-year-old this book. Period. Full stop.

    3. The wall is all grimy and grungey, so no disciplines for you, young lady!

    4. I would not wear a loose chain-mail dress next to an un-shaded lamp. I never thought I'd use this sentence in my life, but here we go: Madame, your dress is highly electro-conductive. If I dance around you holding large enough magnets will your gloves light up?

    87
    para 1. Better hope that model with the overdose wasn't a Touchstone. You could get away with that shit back when Humanity was a roll, and could be bought back up with experience. Now, this to-do list is much, much harder to complete in the game. In this new game you are a monster, not a hero. Do you hear me? A MONSTER!... A monster who has to be nice to four or five people and protect them and love them and send them birthday cards and watch rom-coms together and tell them that the chain-mail dress they bought for you is awesome even though it is really uncomfortable and has nowhere at all to put a wallet. Because sharing is caring! Until you kill them with a pedophiliac overdose.

    Nothing says bad writing like an uneven tone; it implies even the writer doesn't know what all this shit is about.

    para 2 and the rest: "Hi, I'm the writer. Remember those incredibly edgy things I wrote in paragraph one? Never mind. It seemed cool at the time because I like shocking people, because my parents never set limits and ignored me, and that's the only way I could get attention, but, yeah... that stuff won't work in game, so... umm, yeah, here's paragraph two, taking back what I said before. Carmelita Niellson will walk it back further while talking down to someone so old they don't know about the Camarilla. Thanks for your time!"

    Niellson's thing: "You're an incredibly ancient being so you think we spend our time in parlours. What? A parlour? Oh, it's like a living room. No, no, we don't have rooms made of living trees here in the future. No, umm, a parlour. Like a social space? Well, not a mead hall, exactly, more like a... God, I'm sorry I'm so bad at talking to an ancient. I'm even using modern English which is nothing like your language. How are we talking again?"

    88
    Toreador have a ritual for the embrace, now? Or is that just more florid writing?

    How does a stage manager and a gadabout differ? They seem the same, except for being described on a different spot on the page.

    89
    What the hell is this? Seriously. What is it? It's smack dab in the middle of a chapter. In fact, it lands in the middle of a freaking sentence! Oh, wait, I get it. Somebody dripped ink into a thick liquid, maybe mineral oil, photographed it, inverted the image, hit Adjust Contrast on photoshop, then put some MSPaint triangles over it. Why are we looking at someone's freshman graphic design project? If the artist ever met a Toreador, they'd slap them upside their head. (Unless they're a Touchstone, then they'd give them a big hug, a cup of tea, and offer to help them with their portfolio, because... happy-friendship-yay!)

    90
    Celerity doesn't work like that anymore. The should have given the writer a copy of V5.

    91
    As for the weakness, I really can't complain. It's no vaguer than the old one. Plus, I have considered using a similar flaw for the Toreador in my own game, described here in post 10.


    Enough for now, I'll ramble more later.
    Do you have any opinions on Rachel Dolium's and Beckett's writings?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
      Do you have any opinions on Rachel Dolium's and Beckett's writings?
      Yes, I do.

      Comment


      • And, that is how you build suspense. It works for a story, and for a dress. A chain-mail dress that almost shows everything is sexy, daring, and enticing... even to me who... how do I put this?... would probably enjoy the picture more if it were a guy. A dress that does show everything is paradoxically both trying too hard and taking the easy way out.

        Just to be clear, whoever this is in the picture is a lovely young woman, who clearly has an enthusiasm for both art and fashion. She is perfectly posed, and as poised as one can expect from the setting. Holding your body in near-perfect symmetry for a photo is no easy thing. So, it occurred to me that I would hate her to think this is a judgment on her if she's poking around the board somewhere.

        That said, I enjoyed the Brujah photo more because it was a portrait of a person. This is a photo of a dress and, possibly, an agenda. The photo only coincidentally has a person in the frame.

        Comment


        • Are we realy going into "Waaaah, bare skin in a book about vampires! Scandalous! Outrageous! HISSSSS!" territory?

          Honestly, these days, on rpg boards, I'm sometimes thinking "now, I get how people was thinking back then, for example, in the Victorian period." All the artificial prudishness and debauchery at the same time.

          Anyway, actually, I don't have problems with either picture. I like the Brujah one a bit better, because it's appropriate and somewhat close to the old Bradstreet artworks. The Torie one is okay, though I appreciate the whole composition and background more, than the actual model, since I'm not really into these ripped-from-the-catwalk-houte-couture stuff.

          All in all, I have to say, despite all my earlier waryness, I avtually have the least problems with the artworks, from all the things in the preview. Yeah, it's not the beloved b&w drawings that IS Vampire for me, with their gothic look, but it's okay. Honestly, I think it looks better than either the V20, or Requiem 2e books. Though I still don't like and agree with them changing the cover this dramatically, but I've talked to death these things earlier.

          So, no, the visual direction is not bad, IMO. I even like the cover picture, just not as, you 'now as the cover picture. The only piece I really disliked thus far was the Anarch cover and that's it.

          No, my problems with the preview weren't the illustrations. They were the other stuff.
          Last edited by PMárk; 07-04-2018, 06:12 PM.


          If nothing worked, then let's think!

          Comment


          • Always interesting to read opinions of the team's work! I'm glad everyone is getting a say and I hope some of you go on to enjoy the game when it's released


            Matthew Dawkins
            In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing

            ~Hapax Legomenon~

            Comment


            • I'm climbing back in my boat on the stream of consciousness. Sadly, this ride has no grammar check, so be prepared to ask, "What the hell is NSH on about this time?"

              First, old business.

              Rachel Dolium
              Watsonian Interpretation:
              I'm always a little leery of anyone who claims that every single problem in the world goes back to one easily scape-goated group, especially a group that serves as a screen on which can be projected any content the accuser desires. Who exactly are "the clans"? Is it all clans? The clan leaders? Anyone who doesn't declare themselves Caitiff? It's not like most people choose their sire, and once embraced they didn't choose to show the traits of their clans. (eg Nosferatu) This is doubly true under the new compulsion system.

              Try this thought experiment: think of a group of people. Who did you first think of? Jews? Chefs? Twenty-seven year olds? People with measles? Whatever it was, substitute that group for the word "clan", and read Dolium's screed again. Now, try it with a group you hate. Now, try it with a group you belong to. Now, does Dolium sound like someone you'd take advice from... or even want to know?

              So, no, I do not like Rachel Dolium's essay.

              Doylist Interpretation: Dolium is a moderately recognizable name to VtM fandom, and helps to create a sense of continuity with earlier editions. This may be comforting to the "Eating Pop-tarts in the Basement Brigade", of which I am proudly a member. This brief essay's inclusion points out that vampires can believe sophomorically simplistic conspiracy theories, too.

              Beckett
              Watsonian Interpretation: Good God, Beckett! You went to Aleppo, of all places, in 2015? Was the surface of the sun already all booked up? And all you learned could have been learned from the Wikipedia article. Oh, and Mr. Brilliant Scholar, you need a comma between "tools" and "and", otherwise it might imply the slaves were also made of stone. There were no Gargoyles in Enoch.

              And, maybe more importantly, what possible evidence argues that this is more likely to be Enoch than any other settlement of the time? "Comparatively" to what? Okay, yeah, Gobleki Tepe is more likely to be Enoch than, say, Livingston Island, Antarctica, or Jackson County, Missouri, but there are many, many settlements from that era in that general region. Most of them had slave labor and some underground features. Why this one? Given that it was "burnt and destroyed shortly after construction" that argues against GT being Enoch as the Book of Nod implies the city stood for a good while.

              Doylist Interpretation: Same comfort and continuity reasons for inclusion as Dolium. Plus, including that scholars are seriously homing in on where ancients are sleeping allows the creators to put the Sabbat on a bus to the Levant, thus writing them more-or-less out of continuity without having a thousand fan-boys picketing the White Wolf offices.
              New Business. Enough fluff, it's crunch time.

              page 172
              Convictions are a rule that says characters have beliefs. You should probably write them down somewhere. Are we really, after 27 years of WW players chewing the scenery, in need of being told to think about our pcs' beliefs? I thought we were past alignment mechanics. Okay, maybe somebody still needs them. Fine.

              "Incurring Stains in the service of your Convictions mitigate some of the Stains, see p 239."... I have no idea what this means, since I am not privy to the cunningly withheld p. 239. Best case scenario: the writer didn't know what "mitigate" means. Just thinking back to an undergrad class in symbolic logic, the sentence worries me. Stripped down it says, "Increasing A decreases A."

              Maybe you can sin, if you have a good rationale? Okay, my Convictions will always be "Do what thou wilt.", "Unless you don't feel like it.", and "In which case, do something else."

              Chronicle Tenets: Okay, this sounds reasonable, if a little fakely co-operative. Whoever wrote, "invite the player to join a different troupe to explore a different chronicle entirely" instead of "kick the player out" seems like they will enjoy this sentence: "Just blue-skying this, but this section is a next-gen, plug and play paradigm shift in interactive gaming environments, and (from a data-driven perspective) it is both win-win and has the bandwidth to right-size and auto-customize narrative opportunities, so, if the storyteller can manage the optics of Tenets, they can circle back around to creative destruction vis-a-vis non-storyteller participants." Newspeak is double-plus-good. It me happy belly-feel gives!

              Oh, and near as I can tell on the interwebs, "Nordic Gothic" is only sort of a thing, mostly as translations of standard trans-European gothic writers (eg Goodreads has only 11 books in Nordic or Finnic languages listed for the genre), but focuses on deep, dark, dreary woods, and includes regional folktales, so even if it is a thing, Kareem isn't designing a game that is in the Nordic Gothic tradition. There, I have fulfilled my dream of finding a reason to tell the writers of V5, "No, sir, you are playing it wrong!"

              page 173
              Touchstones.

              Sigh. I really don't want to do this. I am so tired of reading this debate, why would I want to wade into it?

              So, I'll just post this link to a previous post of mine. It's post #95, which I tell you because I can't get it to link the individual post, just the page. In brief, "The Touchstone system is (perhaps not so) subtly built on the assumption that the only valid way to function... indeed the only way to be sane, moral, and humane... is to be connected to others." I find the assumptions embodied by this rule to be deeply judgmental, shallow in emotional depth, narrow in narrative breadth, and, personally, dismissive of people who interact with the world in ways other than extroverts.

              Never mind that it is quite reactionary and retrograde for a game that otherwise makes pained efforts to be oh-so 21st century. One need not define oneself, one's worth, and, indeed, one's very Humanity and Sanity by one's relationships, or by the (high or low) opinions of others. I am tired of this discussion, though. Maybe there's a Women's Studies major out there who I can tag out to?

              ...

              ...

              So I went and got a cuppa and watched me the trailer for the "Mamma Mia!" sequel. Seems Cher is in a 90 minute ABBA video. As a gay man, I'm pretty sure it's impossible for me to not be happy right now. No, really, it's science. There've been papers published in many, very serious Cher journals.

              Okay, now that Youtube has talked me down from my soapbox, I can make the joke I planned for this page, about how "Ambition and Desire" sounds like the title of a Jackie Collins novel. Yeah, I didn't laugh either.

              Anyway, first off... good catch, writer person, for the etymological irony in a vampire having no breath, but having aspirations. If I had glittering prizes I would send them to you for telling the joke, so nerd-land didn't have to. Wait, though, what's this in the next sentence? Vampires don't dream? But back on page 53 this game said someone had "daymares". No glittering prizes for you! Yes, I am that fickle and vindictive.

              page 174
              So. Umm. It seems when you play a roleplaying game, your pc is supposed to have things they want to accomplish. These are called Ambitions and Desires. Thank God, this book was written. I would never have come up with such a clever approach. (My Desire was to use sarcasm in a sentence; give me my free willpower point.)

              Oh, my gawd! Turn off scrolling and go to page 174. Then hit the arrows on your keyboard repeatedly, back and forth between 174 and 175. You can make the girl blink really fast like she's tweaking. That is so awesome. Dear Art Director, I take back all the nasty things I said about the chain-mail dress. (You also make Bill Sienkiewicz's drawing of Columbus Circle go all quantum indeterminate and rapidly appear and disappear, but, really, that's what always happens to his work, ever since Big Numbers.)

              page 252
              Celerity. Again, like the clans, I dig the multi-name thing.

              They say you can go faster than any natural creature. Later, they say you can't catch a car. Peregrine Falcons dive at 110kph. Make up your mind.

              "...vampires employing it actually appearing to think almost as fast as they act." I always think slower than I act. Sucks.

              "While some vampires use to slice and stab at enemies without fear of riposte..." Seems some copy editors approve text faster than they think, too. Sucks.

              "Masquerade Threat: Medium-High." Okay, no need to panic. Maybe they haven't come up with a pointless rules sub-system whereby you roll every time you use a discipline to see if you broke the masquerade. Maybe. Honestly, after reading the words "someone or some-thing named on the Relationship Map" I really can't make any promises.

              "Blood Resonance: Choleric." I haven't read a lot about humours, but Celerity sounds more like a Sanguine thing. (Let it be recorded by historians I was the first person to state on the internet that a discipline had the wrong temperament, and should be changed. That's what we'll all be wasting our weekends pointlessly arguing about in 30 page online flame wars. For the rest of our lives.)

              Time to nitpick a power other than Vicissitude. Woohoo! It must be my birthday. (Actually, Monday was.)

              Celerity 1: First anybody notice it? The thing that's missing? No dots. Just saying. It's levels. What's a celerity cantrip look like?

              Anyway, Cat's Grace. Clearly these people have never turned the sprinklers on when a stray cat was in the yard. Yeah, not so graceful. Hilarious, but not graceful.

              Trapeze artists are more about momentum and timing, but fine.

              So you auto-succeed on ALL balance rolls? No matter what? How about dancing on the tip of the space shuttle taking off, as easily as riding a skateboard? Supporting yourself with one hand on the tip of a 1 cm wide steel post, 20 meters in the air, as easily as standing on a street corner? Doing yoga on the beach... during a Cat 5 hurricane? If I laid down on the top of my hedge, it would support my weight, so I can run across it full speed Crouching Tiger style? Can I climb on a ballista bolt and ride it to the other side of the battlefield? These, and many more extreme examples, are why games need variable difficulties... or just admit what this is: flight which requires contact with a stable object. (My new character concept: "Spidervamp! Spidervamp! Does whatever a dead spider can do!" It's a work in progress.)

              Rapid Reflexes: If you're dodging bullets, you're defying the laws of nature. No shame in that, but just admit it.

              Put together, level 1 is pretty badass. Possibly more useful than old Celerity, if used creatively.

              Celerity 2:

              Level 2 is "mastery"?

              "Their mastery of Celerity now allows the vampire to move and react with dizzying speed."? That doesn't sound good. Or do you mean it induces dizziness in others? You get that this sentence doesn't mention an observer? Which is why "shows dizzying speed" is not just a cliche; it's there for reasons. RAW, it is the user of the power who is dizzied. Level one had well-structured sentences. Level two did not. Different writers, maybe?

              We don't know how expensive disciplines are yet. I am willing, however, to bet this is the most expensive possible way of getting two more dice in your dice pool. Plus, it triggers a Rouse roll... which I assume just using two dots of Dexterity or the most commonly used skill does not.

              Is there a math-ey type person out there who can reassure me that, with Hunger dice, it is always, always, always, better to have more dice? Can this really be better than just spending a willpower to re-roll dice you don't like?

              Celerity 3:

              This is the first power to get an example. That's a sign we'll be debating how to run it on the board for years to come.

              We don't really know the combat system yet, but...
              Does this reshuffle initiative... seems reasonable for teleporting.
              Are there limits to what you can do? "I use Celerity 1 and 2 to blink to standing on my opponent's shoulders. What's my attack bonus?"

              From the example: What is a shooter's arc? I mean, I know what it is in basketball, because I know nothing at all about basketball and wikipedia exists, but what is it in this context?

              "How fast is fast?" I ran this sidebar through google translate and it came out as: "No, we do not have to tell you definitively what powers do. You should write that part of the book yourself. We're more of a right-brained creative-type than you, so we're sure you'll do a better job the piddling details anyway. We find details tiresome. Anyway, it's not like we're getting paid to write this book. What? Oh, yeah, I guess we sort of are. Well, fine be that way. Catching cars would be fun. So, obviously, no way can you do that. And, don't be afraid to make up your own rules. It's your game, and you're brilliant if you let yourself try. Oh, and you're a nerdy loser who has been having fun wrong for years."

              Why are Blink and Traversal two powers, except so there are two rouse checks?

              Celerity 4:

              First, "Drinking a Rouse Checks worth of Blood"? Thank goodness they got rid of blood-pools. This Hunger mechanic is so much less awkward and easy to explain to new players. (Excuse me for a moment while I go put three-and-a-half Yums worth of honey in my tea.) So, anyway, awesomely smooth and un-intrusive system-mechanic, guys. (Excuse me again. It's warm in here; I need to lower the air-conditioning by at least seven Brrrrs worth of cold.) Well done!

              So, here is the youtube video I want to see: someone from the White Wolf staff walks up to random, non-gamer person on a street corner and explains the Hunger system to them in under two minutes. I dare you.

              Draught of Elegance itself... oh, for god's sake. Is that really the name? Is this about a team of oxen pulling a trailer ridden upon by Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers? Is this a power that allows you to look prettier the more heavily laden your boat is? Is this the weird gust of wind that seems to magically appear anytime a photographer and a biased-cut silk dress are in the same room?

              Is this book able to do anything... anything... without pretension? I bet twenty bucks the sign in the White Wolf employees washroom that reminds them to wash their hands is in Haiku form. Using Man'yogana Old Japanese script, on acid-free, hand-crafted paper.

              Anyway, as for the actual mechanics, have we learned nothing from Visceratika? Okay, here's the plan. I'll make a pc with Celerity 4 and you guys all create pcs who are blood bound to somebody. Now, the whole party... umm, coterie... has Celerity 2 for free. Drop da mike!


              Celerity 5:

              Lightning Strike: So very many questions.

              You attack with a difficulty of 1. In V5, do you roll for a difficulty 1 action? Oh, wait, does this break the every action has the same difficulty concept? Is that gone entirely for the system as a whole? This may or may not be a major change in the mechanics since play-test. How does a difficulty of 1 work mathematically in the system? Wouldn't it just be all successes?

              The theory behind this power is that you move so fast targets can't evade or dodge, thereby giving you a pile of auto-successes. So, does it work with inanimate objects, like breaking down a door? Moving that fast should have some inertial power. This would mean that RAW someone with this power could be a death-machine with people, but not objects. What about people who are bound, staked or unconscious? Would it work on a person who can't take evasive action? What about someone who falls prone to the ground, passive resistance style, choosing to not resist? So, it's easier for a character with Celerity 5 to hit a whirling ninja than the side of a barn? This seems... wrong.

              It says the duration is "one attack". So, it can only be used in combat. Does this mean no sucker-punches or ambushes, since combat hasn't technically initiated?

              This is only with "fist or melee weapon". Mark my words. This phrase will cause debates. Is a kick a fist? Is raking with claws a fist? A head-butt? Is a large rock or a table-lamp a melee weapon, since they weren't designed as weapons? What if you throw a knife? Hit someone with your gun? Can this be used to trip someone by sticking out your foot? Can this be used at all when in a Protean 4 form? Does this include stakes.. because, wow?

              Split Second: Ever write a term paper at the last minute, and it's not a bad paper, but it just kind of fades out into vague incomprehensibility by the end of it? Yeah, that's this.

              Okay, if the developmers have decided to just give up on crunchy mechanics after they get tired, I can do that, too. I've officially given up hoping for clear mechanics from this edition. All I have left is prayer.

              So, everyone, please join hands.

              "Please, O Saint Gary Gygax, Blessed Story-Spinner by the Sacred Lake and thou of the Holy Polyhedrals, I beseech thee, inspire the authors of this book to write some competent and easily understood mechanics, and not just vague, yet highly evocative descriptions of mechanics we, ourselves, will eventually need to write. This I ask in the name of my love for an entirely sedentary hobby which allows me feel like a highly attractive warrior. And give us this Saturday afternoon our weekly Mountain Dew and Tostitos. And forgive us our railroading of our players, as we forgive those players who randomly send their pcs on side-quests with no warning whatsoever. At the game store, as it is in my rec room. Forever and ever, or until we botch, Amen."


              -30-

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                Oh man :<,you will by any chance give the mechanics and the You Are What you Eat a chance?

                Probably not, the new Hunger mechanics do not look appealing to me. Neither do Touchstones. I can accept Touchstones in Requiem to a point, but not in Masquerade.

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                • Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                  You attack with a difficulty of 1. In V5, do you roll for a difficulty 1 action? Oh, wait, does this break the every action has the same difficulty concept? Is that gone entirely for the system as a whole? This may or may not be a major change in the mechanics since play-test. How does a difficulty of 1 work mathematically in the system? Wouldn't it just be all successes?
                  -30-
                  Based on the alpha, Diff is the number of successes you need to get for accomplishing, no? Which, in combat, is the numbr of successes rolled by the other participant. In this case, they don't get to roll, so you roll against diff 1, so, yeah, as I wrote in my assesment, it's almost assuredly one-shot-one-kill, or nothing, if the other one has cel 5 too.


                  "Please, O Saint Gary Gygax, Blessed Story-Spinner by the Sacred Lake and thou of the Holy Polyhedrals, I beseech thee, inspire the authors of this book to write some competent and easily understood mechanics, and not just vague, yet highly evocative descriptions of mechanics we, ourselves, will eventually need to write. This I ask in the name of my love for an entirely sedentary hobby which allows me feel like a highly attractive warrior. And give us this Saturday afternoon our weekly Mountain Dew and Tostitos. And forgive us our railroading of our players, as we forgive those players who randomly send their pcs on side-quests with no warning whatsoever. At the game store, as it is in my rec room. Forever and ever, or until we botch, Amen."
                  And that is, good sir, why I can't stand narrative games. At least one of the reasons. F*ck narrative, give me solid mechanics to work along with and building up a narrative in a reasonably (or at least, internally consistent) working world and that narrative will be a hundred ties more believable and satisfying.

                  Like, Cel 2 allows you to add your level of Cel to Dodge rolls with Athletics, but not to parries and blocks, when defending with melee or brawl? And it can't add extra dice to attacks? Why on Earth is that logical???

                  Otherwise, agree with most of your points. And had a good laugh, thanks!

                  PS: I also can't really understand the narrative games' obsession about mapping up relationships and giving more mechanics to what are the character's goals and whatnot than to, you know, how things work physically, in the game's world? Like, it's not like those things are the like that the player should come up with regardless, yes? I sometimes get the impression that narrative games assume very unmotivated players... Or players who ever played MMOs and/or dungeon crawls and need to be teached of the One True Way of roleplaying.
                  Last edited by PMárk; 07-04-2018, 07:39 PM.


                  If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                  • Looking at the Preview, I'm still on the fence.

                    I like that they've gone back to the old metaplots and moved them forward. That was something I always loved in the previous editions and the few elements I disliked either never happened or were lessen (E.g. House Goratrix is greatly weakened but still around).

                    The mechanic is where I'm more on the edge. It feels "eclectic". Some old, some new, some reworked/updated and some element seems to be taken straight from CofD (maybe a good thing as it might make it easier if you want to poach stuff from Requiem). I'm willing to give it a fair try and see if I like it.

                    Worse case, it will be like 3rd and 5th ed D&D: Harvested for all it has to offer me (Plot, setting, NPC etc.) while using the mechanic I enjoy and that make "sense" to me.
                    Last edited by Boneguard; 07-04-2018, 08:00 PM.


                    Project consolidation:
                    Rough Draft: Dhole Shifters, Ottawa By Night, Tribebook Bunyip, Garou Variant
                    In redaction: Lasombra Bloodline

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                    • Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                      And that is, good sir, why I can't stand narrative games. At least one of the reasons. F*ck narrative, give me solid mechanics to work along with and building up a narrative in a reasonably (or at least, internally consistent) working world and that narrative will be a hundred ties more believable and satisfying.
                      Indeed. It's the sort of problem where you know, deep in your soul, that this system is going to start fights. Not the good kind of fights, either, that happen in the context of the game, and requires players to roll initiative. I'm talking about vehement, sometimes mean-spirited fights between participants at the game table. Vague rules about how conflicts get resolved only function when everyone is on board and agrees with the rulings. If that doesn't happen - and it's going to come up eventually - it's going to start fights. Heated words will be exchanged, feelings will be hurt, and everyone is going to be left with a not-fun time. Games have concrete rules, so that the players and storytellers know, at the very least, the way conflicts are resolved are consistent.

                      Moreover, there's just some measure of Verisimilitude that is lost when there are no hard and fast rules about how something works. A game with rules for how characters do actions or how processes in the world play out feels more real, even if the rules themselves are arbitrary or not entirely consistent with the Real World.

                      This is also why I don't necessarily agree with giving Celerity powers dependent on level (other than Elder powers, obviously). I find just giving the characters more dice to Dexterity rolls is more helpful, since you can simulate a bunch of the powers this edition describes just by having more dice to roll. Having a higher Dex + Athletics pool will naturally make you better at balancing, while your attacks naturally get more effective with more dice.

                      The old Celerity rules adjudicated mechanics, while allowing players and storytellers describe what that means or looks like in the narrative. V5 makes it so the narrative elements are baked into the game, while seeming disinterested in how exactly they work. And, like with the point below, I think that takes too much away from players and storytellers.

                      PS: I also can't really understand the narrative games' obsession about mapping up relationships and giving more mechanics to what are the character's goals and whatnot than to, you know, how things work physically, in the game's world? Like, it's not like those things are the like that the player should come up with regardless, yes? I sometimes get the impression that narrative games assume very unmotivated players... Or players who ever played MMOs and/or dungeon crawls and need to be teached of the One True Way of roleplaying.
                      Yeah, I don't really understand the appeal of abstracting out roleplaying into their own systems. Aren't players and storytellers supposed to be, you know, playing a role? Abstracting character interaction seems contrary to the goals of playing an RPG. Because if you really don't care who your character is and why they do things, why bother with simulations of roleplaying in the first place?

                      This sort of brings me back to an idea I came upon way back during the earlier V5 playtest: V5 sounds like it functions far more like a Board Game than an RPG. Like, if you put all these new game mechanics onto types of cards that are drawn from various decks, it wouldn't change much. Your character has to keep track of their Touchstone cards - with are always portraits of people - and the player loses if they run out of them. Every time they use a vampire power, they take a Rouse token. Too many Rouse tokens, and they have to grab a card from the Compulsion deck. Etc, etc.

                      V5 seems less like "the new edition of Vampire: The Masquerade", and more like "Vampire: The Masquerade - The Board Game". Complete with simplified rules and abstracted social interaction and combat, and the narrative is super simplified (no Sabbat, no Ravnos, all Camarilla, all Fox, Final Destination).

                      And hell, if White Wolf just decided to make V5 into a board game, that would be one thing. I imagine it would be pretty fun, in the sense that the Arkham Horror board game is fun. Great for what it is, but not a replacement for the actual Call of Cthulhu RPG.


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                      • i'm really failing to understanding the complaint that celerity is too narrative,i mean,most of the powers still have dice rolls based on attributes your character has. The last power is indeed narrative,but they put limitations in place.
                        And i don't think the sidebar is saying the player should decide what each dot does,it clearly says each dots means 9 kilometers per hour. It just says that you can change that if you want,but there is a baseline,the baseline is 9 kms. so i dont get the complaints,sorry.
                        Last edited by Nicolas Milioni; 07-04-2018, 08:39 PM.

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                        • Oh, they’ve a new Masquerade edition? Great, I’ve been interested in the newer WoD editions and WoD stuff in general lately, and-

                          * wades through 13 pages

                          So, it seems that people like and Like more when posts call the writers idiots and stuff they wrote as bullshit. Huh.


                          MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                          • Nosimplehiway
                            Celerity 2:

                            Level 2 is "mastery"?

                            "Their mastery of Celerity now allows the vampire to move and react with dizzying speed."? That doesn't sound good. Or do you mean it induces dizziness in others? You get that this sentence doesn't mention an observer? Which is why "shows dizzying speed" is not just a cliche; it's there for reasons. RAW, it is the user of the power who is dizzied. Level one had well-structured sentences. Level two did not. Different writers, maybe?

                            We don't know how expensive disciplines are yet. I am willing, however, to bet this is the most expensive possible way of getting two more dice in your dice pool. Plus, it triggers a Rouse roll... which I assume just using two dots of Dexterity or the most commonly used skill does not.

                            Is there a math-ey type person out there who can reassure me that, with Hunger dice, it is always, always, always, better to have more dice? Can this really be better than just spending a willpower to re-roll dice you don't like?
                            The Willpower is just one roll, this gets you a whole scene. It also gets better with every further level of Celerity - someone with Celerity 5 gets 5 dex dice for one rouse. And as long as the new dice aren't Hunger dice, having more dice is always better.

                            Celerity 4:

                            First, "Drinking a Rouse Checks worth of Blood"? Thank goodness they got rid of blood-pools. This Hunger mechanic is so much less awkward and easy to explain to new players. (Excuse me for a moment while I go put three-and-a-half Yums worth of honey in my tea.) So, anyway, awesomely smooth and un-intrusive system-mechanic, guys. (Excuse me again. It's warm in here; I need to lower the air-conditioning by at least seven Brrrrs worth of cold.) Well done!

                            So, here is the youtube video I want to see: someone from the White Wolf staff walks up to random, non-gamer person on a street corner and explains the Hunger system to them in under two minutes. I dare you.

                            Draught of Elegance itself... oh, for god's sake. Is that really the name? Is this about a team of oxen pulling a trailer ridden upon by Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers? Is this a power that allows you to look prettier the more heavily laden your boat is? Is this the weird gust of wind that seems to magically appear anytime a photographer and a biased-cut silk dress are in the same room?

                            Is this book able to do anything... anything... without pretension? I bet twenty bucks the sign in the White Wolf employees washroom that reminds them to wash their hands is in Haiku form. Using Man'yogana Old Japanese script, on acid-free, hand-crafted paper.

                            Anyway, as for the actual mechanics, have we learned nothing from Visceratika? Okay, here's the plan. I'll make a pc with Celerity 4 and you guys all create pcs who are blood bound to somebody. Now, the whole party... umm, coterie... has Celerity 2 for free. Drop da mike!
                            First, it's not really free when someone has to get Celerity 4 for it. Second, you only have it until you feed the next time. Third, with You Are What You Eat it seems you can sometimes get at least one dot in a discipline "for free" anyway if you find the right meal - unless you'd rather stick to your Cel 4 buddy. And fourth, Blood Bonds really suck and a "free" discipline doesn't make up for it. It does however make Sabbat packs pretty scary...
                            I must say this is really the power I like the most because it ties in with the other new mechanics so nicely - the question "My favorite meth junkie is currently in rehab, can't I just sip from our speed freak Toreador?" is bound to come up and receives a good answer here.


                            All in all, while I share quite a bit of your criticism, it seems like your chosen format makes it rather easy to veer off towards the worst possible (and sometimes impossible) interpretation of a text or rule.

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                            • Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                              Nosimplehiway

                              All in all, while I share quite a bit of your criticism, it seems like your chosen format makes it rather easy to veer off towards the worst possible (and sometimes impossible) interpretation of a text or rule.
                              Exactly this. For the sake of pretty poor comedy this person is delivering a review that doesn't address much about the preview's content. I'm glad they're not a writer at least.

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                              • I think one of the bigger things that bugs me about the preview is just how generic it feels. Why nothing about the Gangrel, Malkavians, Tremere or whatever? The Brujah write up is just plane bad and disappointing, while the Toreador one is kind of meh.

                                Convictions, specifically Chronicle Tenets seems like an endorsed way to allow some people to control the other players and ruin the table's fun/experience. Convictions, while I like the idea, I'm not really sure needs to be handled by rules, and my intuition is telling me they did it more to fill in a rather empty character sheet. Just my guess.

                                Which is also odd that the character sheet was not previewed. All in all, it all looks and feels very vague, which means we can't really form any opinion of stuff, even based off of the playtest material, as it likely changed very much. Not good, for me at least, as I'm coming from a place where they really need to dig themselves out of the hole to sell me, and this just doesn't do it.

                                It feels like there is so much wasted space, and so much is just vague or almost goes without saying. Add in the bias, and that presumably this was the portion that was hand picked, so likely the part they felt was amongst the better of the material, I just walk away rather disappointed with the preview.

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