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  • The more I think about it, choosing Celerity to be in the preview smacks a lot of "Look everyone, we fixed the grossly overpowered augmenting discipline!" but we can't compare it to Potence or Fortitude to know if those lost power in the final cut. I know from one of the playtests that I certainly feel Fortitude took a nerf with the other two, which seems a lot like we still have "best, OK, worst" among the three.


    "At the risk of sounding like a murder hobo"

    Attributed to Nyrufa.

    Comment


    • Beckett
      Convictions, specifically Chronicle Tenets seems like an endorsed way to allow some people to control the other players and ruin the table's fun/experience.
      On the other hand, I'd say they're a good mechanic for making sure everyone is on the same page. "Control the other players" is something that happens when not everyone has a say in how the tenets are established, which should presumably not be the case. But in a game about the moral decay of its protagonists, I think there should be a baseline on what "moral decay" actually is. In previous editions, that was the Hierarchy of Sins of Humanity. Here, it's expected that the game's participants negotiate it for themselves. And in doing so, they might arrive at a sharper picture than previous games did, particularly when it comes to extenuating circumstances. I've played in a few games where after combat I was reaching for the Conscience dice, only to be told "that was self-defense"/"that was for a good cause"/"that was against the Sabbat". With the group tenets, one can more easily pin down the kind of morality one wants for a particular type of game - and in fact do some stuff that doesn't directly concern what we'd call morality at all, like the "Nordic Gothic" example that penalizes acceptance and use of one's vampiric nature and Knowledge Man Was Not Meant To Know.
      In my opinion, it's an interesting tool. Of course, it is more useful if you're going for a game style that isn't focused on "optimizing" characters and can find joy in telling a good tragedy (and I say this as someone who usually wants his characters to do well, so no condemnation from my side if that isn't your game).
      Last edited by Cifer; 07-05-2018, 10:22 AM.

      Comment


      • So,WW had to apologize on facebook because some people thought they were condoning Nazis. I'm sorry,they were not doing that. They merely stated some Brujah can be nazis,because Brujah are passionated about all causes and some causes are evil. The lack of reading comprehension boggles the mind,i don't even know English that well and i even could see the Nazi Brujah were clearly shown to be in the wrong

        Comment


        • Plus, there's the whole "this is not a game about playing the good guys".

          Do you happen to have a link?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cifer View Post
            Plus, there's the whole "this is not a game about playing the good guys".

            Do you happen to have a link?
            Here IT is

            Comment


            • The "No Heores" thing doesn't really make it better.

              And while I agree that the Brujah write-up wasn't a significant problem in terms of some sort of secret pro-Nazi message, it is part of a trend that's persisted from their first releases until this so far; really sloppy writing that's easy to misinterpret.

              The Nazis in the Brujah write-up are in the "rebels that are hidden as part of the system," in contrast to vocal outsiders. I mean, that's a pretty strong statement. I don't entirely disagree with it, since neo-Nazis, alt-right, and etc. are currently enjoying a lot more mainstream legitimacy than I'd like right now. But it's a bit of a big deal for a lot of folks, and putting them on one side of that dividing line is... not great if you're not going to discuss things further than that. It's leaving yourself open for... well... exactly what happened (again).

              Comment


              • I know a lot of the examples listed were very millennial politics trendy with the gender studies and Neo Nazis I didn't really care. I'm not a politics obsessed type who watches hours of the same news every day (sadly I know some on both sides, it's life). I did I admit, picture a Neo Nazi assaulting Thoe Bell and a Fourth Wave feminist talking down to a Mithras type and got a good chuckle thinking it's good Brujah embrace a lot.

                Just about all the examples sounded pretty bad to me if memory serves (deleted it). I thought that was the point. They were over the top stupid kid Brujah. Didn't one guy steal from himself? No heroes indeed.

                As to Facebook if you felt the need to apologize to the 10 people who couldn't figure out Nazi's are bad on their own, your going to spend a lot of time on Facebook with the way your writing your books so far. Then again feeling the need to apologize on Facebook might explain why the Brujah sounded like millennial's.

                I still feel the problem with the game is the new mechanics and the fact that it is not at all backwards compatible so in effect it's not VTM vol 5, it's VTM 2.0. Not the same game. Guess that's why I'm still reading the thread, still sad they made bad changes I don't feel are worth the effort to overcome, and they made those changes for no good reason other than not liking people enjoying the game the way they wanted too. The new Mechanics scream you have to be a certain play style because we said so.

                The problem with going back to the meta plot is that the meta plot was so rigid and limiting (not to mention over the top) The reason I prefer the original game was it's openness and you were making your own world to your own sensibilities. In the old game eliminating certain clans, changing how the Sabbat were, all pretty easy. The mechanical changes to this game take way too much effort to scrap. I just flat out dislike the new intrusive game mechanics.

                I don't care if you don't like the way we play our games, at the same time it's not worth the effort to break out of the box your trying to shove everyone in with the obsession on feeding, human interaction and your brand of horror. I thought you could just port over the things you liked like say roads if but you've wrapped everything into a tangled mess with discipline functions and feeding, yawye, touchstones streaks banes whatever else I'm forgetting. Just too much to fix and ignore at this point to make a purchase when I thought the metaplot you are apparently back to was something to be ignored in the first place.

                You were supposed to design a game I wanted to buy. In three years when Vol 6 comes out try streamlining fixing and balancing V20, or simply put out more V20. You'll probably get my money.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  The "No Heores" thing doesn't really make it better.

                  And while I agree that the Brujah write-up wasn't a significant problem in terms of some sort of secret pro-Nazi message, it is part of a trend that's persisted from their first releases until this so far; really sloppy writing that's easy to misinterpret.

                  The Nazis in the Brujah write-up are in the "rebels that are hidden as part of the system," in contrast to vocal outsiders. I mean, that's a pretty strong statement. I don't entirely disagree with it, since neo-Nazis, alt-right, and etc. are currently enjoying a lot more mainstream legitimacy than I'd like right now. But it's a bit of a big deal for a lot of folks, and putting them on one side of that dividing line is... not great if you're not going to discuss things further than that. It's leaving yourself open for... well... exactly what happened (again).
                  I agree with you mostly, except to say it doesn't matter that the mainstream sees Nazis as similarly mainstream: it's the Nazis who believe they're rebels. That's the point. That's why Brujah Embrace them. Not because they're the growing political body, but because those bastards speak with fire and say they're going to bring sweeping changes and "dredge the swamp" of the elders.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post
                    I know a lot of the examples listed were very millennial politics trendy with the gender studies and Neo Nazis I didn't really care. I'm not a politics obsessed type who watches hours of the same news every day (sadly I know some on both sides, it's life). I did I admit, picture a Neo Nazi assaulting Thoe Bell and a Fourth Wave feminist talking down to a Mithras type and got a good chuckle thinking it's good Brujah embrace a lot.

                    Just about all the examples sounded pretty bad to me if memory serves (deleted it). I thought that was the point. They were over the top stupid kid Brujah. Didn't one guy steal from himself? No heroes indeed.

                    As to Facebook if you felt the need to apologize to the 10 people who couldn't figure out Nazi's are bad on their own, your going to spend a lot of time on Facebook with the way your writing your books so far. Then again feeling the need to apologize on Facebook might explain why the Brujah sounded like millennial's.

                    I still feel the problem with the game is the new mechanics and the fact that it is not at all backwards compatible so in effect it's not VTM vol 5, it's VTM 2.0. Not the same game. Guess that's why I'm still reading the thread, still sad they made bad changes I don't feel are worth the effort to overcome, and they made those changes for no good reason other than not liking people enjoying the game the way they wanted too. The new Mechanics scream you have to be a certain play style because we said so.

                    The problem with going back to the meta plot is that the meta plot was so rigid and limiting (not to mention over the top) The reason I prefer the original game was it's openness and you were making your own world to your own sensibilities. In the old game eliminating certain clans, changing how the Sabbat were, all pretty easy. The mechanical changes to this game take way too much effort to scrap. I just flat out dislike the new intrusive game mechanics.

                    I don't care if you don't like the way we play our games, at the same time it's not worth the effort to break out of the box your trying to shove everyone in with the obsession on feeding, human interaction and your brand of horror. I thought you could just port over the things you liked like say roads if but you've wrapped everything into a tangled mess with discipline functions and feeding, yawye, touchstones streaks banes whatever else I'm forgetting. Just too much to fix and ignore at this point to make a purchase when I thought the metaplot you are apparently back to was something to be ignored in the first place.

                    You were supposed to design a game I wanted to buy. In three years when Vol 6 comes out try streamlining fixing and balancing V20, or simply put out more V20. You'll probably get my money.

                    This guy gets it.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Stannis View Post
                      I agree with you mostly, except to say it doesn't matter that the mainstream sees Nazis as similarly mainstream:
                      It doesn't matter to the rationale of why Brujah might embrace people from those circles, but it does matter to how the presentation comes off to the audience.

                      There is a meaningful discussion to be had about the psychology of victims, whether actual victims or people that simply perceive themselves as victims, and how it feeds into the rebelliousness that the Brujah are attracted to. That's lost in the breakdown of outsider vs. insider rebels.

                      Comment


                      • People getting pissy at the mere suggestion a Brujah might be a neo-Nazi, when it's literally canon the Soviet Union was a state of, by, and for Brujah. I'd love to hear alternative theories from some of these people about 1%'er Brujah that form the clan stereotype that don't include neo-Nazism and Nazi iconography.

                        Of course, these are the same people circle jerking over including of non-binary genders and whatnot "starting with the 20th Anniversary line"...when the reality is Vykos among other characters and even entire groups have been explicitly depicted as such for over twenty years now.
                        Last edited by Theodrim; 07-05-2018, 10:29 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Theodrim View Post
                          People getting pissy at the mere suggestion a Brujah might be a neo-Nazi, when it's literally canon the Soviet Union was a state of, by, and for Brujah. I'd love to hear alternative theories from some of these people about 1%'er Brujah that form the clan stereotype that don't include neo-Nazism and Nazi iconography.

                          Of course, these are the same people circle jerking over including of non-binary genders and whatnot "starting with the 20th Anniversary line"...when the reality is Vykos among other characters and even entire groups have been explicitly depicted as such for over twenty years now.

                          OF course people are Upset the Brujah are Nazis. That's for Malkavians and Tremere. STop stealing other people's shit you Rabble!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Lian View Post
                            OF course people are Upset the Brujah are Nazis. That's for Malkavians and Tremere. STop stealing other people's shit you Rabble!
                            Ironically, one idea I'm toying with in my TC game is a story where the PC's have to deal with a chantry in a concentration camp, and the ensuing fallout.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Theodrim View Post

                              Ironically, one idea I'm toying with in my TC game is a story where the PC's have to deal with a chantry in a concentration camp, and the ensuing fallout.

                              Berlin By Night had SOOOOOOOOOOO many Nazi vampires... you'd think no one was tried at Nurenburg in the WOD

                              Comment


                              • Nicolas Milioni
                                Thanks for the link. That said, it didn't read like an apology (and it shouldn't have been one, of course), more of an explanation.

                                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                                The "No Heores" thing doesn't really make it better.

                                And while I agree that the Brujah write-up wasn't a significant problem in terms of some sort of secret pro-Nazi message, it is part of a trend that's persisted from their first releases until this so far; really sloppy writing that's easy to misinterpret.

                                The Nazis in the Brujah write-up are in the "rebels that are hidden as part of the system," in contrast to vocal outsiders. I mean, that's a pretty strong statement. I don't entirely disagree with it, since neo-Nazis, alt-right, and etc. are currently enjoying a lot more mainstream legitimacy than I'd like right now. But it's a bit of a big deal for a lot of folks, and putting them on one side of that dividing line is... not great if you're not going to discuss things further than that. It's leaving yourself open for... well... exactly what happened (again).
                                Eh, I really don't see what's to misinterpret. You said it yourself: The likes of Martin Sellner of the Alt-Right currently are far too popular to be classified as true outsiders.

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