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  • Originally posted by Marcus View Post

    I see. I lost the level 3, 50 yards in a blink, part. Need to check better. But in the preview I found I just have powers until level 3. Where can I find disciplines above 3?

    By the way with superspeed I meant being able to multiply the speed by Celerity dots (in the same way Masquerade extra actions did or requiem active celerity do)
    The rules for movement speed aren't covered in the 27 page preview, so we don't know. The preview can be found here: https://www.worldofdarkness.com/stor...204/V5_Preview

    Comment


    • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
      Yeah, it's going to heavily depend on the actual mechanics, and right now we don't know what the mechanics are so you have some people saying, "It's not a big deal" and others who think the sky is falling.

      If the mechanics are"You're at 1/2 dice pool unless you're in art museum... and even then you'll be at 1/2 dice pool if there's a Nosferatu hanging out at the art museum," that's going to be a huge issue and essentially render the Toreador wildly ineffective for 95% of most games.

      On the other hand if the mechanics are, "You're at -1 to your dice pool when you're out on the street, and it's only in the most horrific of locations like the depths of a sewer that you'll ever find your dice pool reduced by 1/2" then it's more manageable (though hopefully the ST won't be running a Sewer Exploration chronicle in that case).
      In addition, "wildly ineffective" is somewhat inaccurate as well - the penalty only applies to rolling for disciplines and out of the nine printed Celerity powers, only two even have dice rolls (though I assume Presence might be a little more dice-heavy).

      Originally posted by thebiglarpnerd View Post
      But it clearly isn't intended to be 'lol you're at half dice pool'. You take a minus equal to the bane severity, which I wouldn't expect, y'know, 'public street' to be a -1, but at worst, a -1 on the Bane Severity.
      The question is, what is "Bane Severity"? Is it something that comes from the situation or something that comes from the vampire? Do perhaps less Human vampires get worse Banes? Or less well fed ones?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cifer View Post
        In addition, "wildly ineffective" is somewhat inaccurate as well - the penalty only applies to rolling for disciplines and out of the nine printed Celerity powers, only two even have dice rolls (though I assume Presence might be a little more dice-heavy).

        The question is, what is "Bane Severity"? Is it something that comes from the situation or something that comes from the vampire? Do perhaps less Human vampires get worse Banes? Or less well fed ones?
        Another thing we have no context on. I would assume it might have to do with Humanity like you say (which is logical; lower humanity means you're more monstrous).

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cifer View Post

          The Bane could definitely need some more exact writing - and maybe we'll get that at the point where they actually describe the rules governing them. That said, if you want to criticise it, it would also be helpful if you yourself read the paragraph in detail.
          I did, multiple times. That's exactly the lack of exactness I'm talking about. "the Soryteller decides" is not an exact rule. I doubt we'll see more exact rules for it.


          And yes, the Toreador weakness was always somewhat nebulous, but at least it said the toreador must encounters soemthing that's truly remarkable and beautiful. It was more occasional and also, the book gave rules for resisting it or snapping out of it. This version is even a lot more open to interpretation and lacking exact denominators, while my oppinion is that it'd need more of it. It's also just as much abusable as the old one.


          People are in this case the people writing the rulebook:
          We'll see if there's a nuanced approach to this one. If the storyteller only has the decision between "everything's dandy" and "let me grab half your dice pool", that's problematic - if most Toreador lose one or two dice in normal street surroundings, I don't see many complaints.
          Take a look of what people think about Background Count in Shadowrun and think about it again. There are many problems with "rules" like these.
          Last edited by PMárk; 07-08-2018, 07:19 PM.


          If nothing worked, then let's think!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Inertial Frame View Post
            Side note: The direction on which we're talking about clans suggests that it's going to be difficult, if not nigh impossible, to play against type. That's unsettling, given how I like to subvert the conventions of the clans (an agnostic spy of a Setite, for example).
            You know, I liked the idea of Compulsions, as general vampiric urges. I even liked the idea of several of them manifesting differently, depending of the bloodline, giving even more character to the clans. But you're right, if not handled by a lot of care, that could end up making playing against the type a LOT harder and the characters a lot more stereotypical.


            If nothing worked, then let's think!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Marcus View Post
              Is there a thing that I'm not understanding between the new disciplines preview (that honestly are not intriguing me too much so far): Celerity seems to not allow a "superspeed mode" anymore. Am I missing something in the new mechanics?
              It's mostly "Blink", the 3rd level power, but that's only up to 50 and in a stright line. Also, the level 2 "Fleetness" adds (celerity level) dice to non-combat dex rolls. Assuming running is one of those, that would be the average "just moving faster".


              As a sidenote, I still think that actually, the non-combat powers are the best in the preview and teh combat ones are... not really good. Interestingly, no one even really debated in any meaningful way, that, for example it's logical for Fleetness to add dice to dodging only...


              If nothing worked, then let's think!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by thebiglarpnerd View Post

                Another thing we have no context on. I would assume it might have to do with Humanity like you say (which is logical; lower humanity means you're more monstrous).
                Yeah, likely another "borrowed" idea from Requiem 2e. They must really like that game... Regardless, it's not a bad concept, I'm open to slightly less monstrous Nosferatu, for example.


                If nothing worked, then let's think!

                Comment


                • Something to consider even without the specifics of Bane Severity yet:

                  -1 to -3 dice can be utterly devastating or a minor inconvenience depending on your base dice-pool. Assuming the final system will still be a set TN of 6, and difficulty is the minimum number of successes to succeed, and discounting crits for the time being:

                  10 dice has a ~99% of beating a difficulty 2 roll. Getting knocked down to 8 dice reduces you all the way to...~96% of beating a difficulty 2 roll.

                  Meanwhile, 4 dice goes from ~69%, to 25%, on a difficulty 2 roll and a -2 penalty.

                  Even if the final rules result in a fairly small penalty, it forces Toreador to be very binary characters when it comes to what they invest in. Trying to make a well rounded or jack-of-all trades Toreador isn't going to work well if you're facing even a small penalty a lot of the time, while specialist Toreadors are going to notice this far less.

                  This isn't inherently a bad thing, since Clan weaknesses impacting characters in a fashion that's largely in keeping with the Clan's style can be good. But as discussed above, the issue is when it becomes increasing difficult to make non-stereotypical characters.

                  Comment


                  • I couldn't help, but to think about how this Celerity version could have been a lot better, only, with minor additions and clarifications and changes.

                    For example: Cat's Grace, level 1. You don't need to roll, ever. That's a bit much, IMO. Never? Like, you're balancing on a cable, dodging bullets, fighting an assasin and the cable is icy "never"?

                    What about this: the power enables you to automatically pass rolls for keeping your balance, with a difficulty up to your Celerity level.

                    There, fixed.

                    Also, Rapid Reflexes: You can dodge bullets. Fine. Why not adding "you could ingore the penalties for multiple opponents, up to the number of opponents equaling your Celerity". You have Cel 2, you can fight 3 dudes without penalties and you start to get penalties over that only.


                    If nothing worked, then let's think!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      Even if the final rules result in a fairly small penalty, it forces Toreador to be very binary characters when it comes to what they invest in. Trying to make a well rounded or jack-of-all trades Toreador isn't going to work well if you're facing even a small penalty a lot of the time, while specialist Toreadors are going to notice this far less.
                      Note that it's not "all the time", but rather "whenever you want to use disciplines that include a roll". When Toreador are just doing mundane things, their weakness does absolutely nothing to them. When they're using Celerity, the weakness impacts them on two out of nine powers (though I imagine it will come up fairly often with those as Celerity usually means traversing action sequences that are traditionally not set in art galleries *makes note to script an action sequence in an art gallery*). With Auspex and Presence, we don't have the systems yet, but I imagine they might have more rolls, yet often be situated in more civilized places.

                      Comment


                      • Nice to know that, with the Celerity in this new edition, I can have almost the same powers that Telgar homebrewed for the Discipline years ago. Except for money instead of polite gratitude!


                        “Nobody is purely good or purely evil. Most of us are in-between. There are moths that explore the day and butterflies that play at night.”
                        - Suzy Kassem, Rise Up and Salute The Sun
                        (She/Her)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by AzraelFirestorm View Post
                          Nice to know that, with the Celerity in this new edition, I can have almost the same powers that Telgar homebrewed for the Discipline years ago. Except for money instead of polite gratitude!
                          Yeah, how dare these people want to feed their employees!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                            Yeah, how dare these people want to feed their employees!
                            Listen. I have nothing against game developers or professional writers. I get paid to write, too, and it's not always easy or fun. I just thought it was funny that, with all the things I seriously dislike in what I've seen of V5, Celerity (of all things!) gets a writeup that looks a lot like a (slightly broken) version of a friend's popular-among-certain-people homebrew version. The development team did one thing that I almost liked... Except for that no rolling thing at LEVEL ONE. That's just silly.
                            Last edited by AzraelFirestorm; 07-09-2018, 09:35 AM. Reason: Edited for caffeine


                            “Nobody is purely good or purely evil. Most of us are in-between. There are moths that explore the day and butterflies that play at night.”
                            - Suzy Kassem, Rise Up and Salute The Sun
                            (She/Her)

                            Comment


                            • I am in full agreement that these sorts of loosey-goosey rules are a problem. After a certain point, it becomes tiring handing out page after page of house-rules to fix vague rules in published sources.

                              It wouldn't be so bad if WW had better post-publication support. It's nice we sometimes see a member of the writing staff pop in on a board discussion to chat or answer questions. It really is quite gracious of them... and thanks to all who have done this!... but why not just have an errata/FAQ/explanatory column page?

                              That said, there are several ways to adjust the severity of the Toreador flaw. I assume more will present themselves when the full system is released.

                              Maybe Beauty Is A Foci The text of the flaw is sufficiently vague that the ST can easily tailor its intensity, even without what would technically be a "house-rule". This sort of ruling takes place in Mage all the time. If you treat "beautiful surroundings" similarly to how you would treat a Mage's foci, it might work. Want a tougher flaw? Require the sort of setting that would make the cover of Architectural Digest. Want a weaker flaw? Let the Toreador look down at her pretty ring, and get on with the game.

                              Maybe Toreador Just Need To Spend WP If the mechanics of the alphas are to be believed (no sure thing), then spending a point of Willpower allows the dice you don't like from any roll to be re-rolled. Willpower has always been the one-stat-to-rule-them-all in WW, and that seems to be both retained and extended. If the ST is generous with WP replenishment, any must-make roll will be made. Were there a bloodline with the flaw "increased difficulty on discipline rolls, which can be over-come by spending a willpower", I'm guessing it would be a fairly mid-level weakness. In the case of the Toreador, WP is only needed if they don't like the roll result.

                              Fix It In-Character Perhaps most problematically, the player may have an easy fix. If I were playing a Toreador I might ask, "Will this place trigger my flaw?" I would ask this at the start of every scene. If the answer is "yes", then leave. Now. No, really, just walk out. In-world and in-character it would be an obvious reaction to having this flaw. Does this cause more problems than it solves? Yep.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                                I couldn't help, but to think about how this Celerity version could have been a lot better, only, with minor additions and clarifications and changes.

                                For example: Cat's Grace, level 1. You don't need to roll, ever. That's a bit much, IMO. Never? Like, you're balancing on a cable, dodging bullets, fighting an assasin and the cable is icy "never"?

                                What about this: the power enables you to automatically pass rolls for keeping your balance, with a difficulty up to your Celerity level.

                                There, fixed.

                                Also, Rapid Reflexes: You can dodge bullets. Fine. Why not adding "you could ingore the penalties for multiple opponents, up to the number of opponents equaling your Celerity". You have Cel 2, you can fight 3 dudes without penalties and you start to get penalties over that only.

                                We don't know if the multiple opponent penalties are still in. Darker Days Radio seems to imply it won't as they mentioned rules for 1v1 and 1vX combat.

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