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  • Originally posted by PMárk View Post
    You know, I'm thinking about how this whole "internet" thingy is becoming counterproductive for creators. Okay, that's not fair, but I really miss the days when there were books some people liked and some didn't, but much-much less histerics, overall.
    Meh, since the first primate said "Oog" when her neighbor wanted her to say "Boog" there have been people getting hysterical over words.

    I'm old enough to remember back to the dusty dark days before the internet. I would go to a library to read books I had discovered through a card-catalog. The books, they say, were made of real paper, and - for some inexplicable reason lost to the mists of time - they only worked if you were in a very, very quiet room with lots of granite and marble on the floors and the walls. Which is especially odd, since stone walls tend to amplify sound, but I digress.

    Anyway, there were always people working to ban, disparage, fearmonger, or just exhibit pout-rage over some book or another. I can personally remember when "Charlotte's Web", "Are You There, God, It's Me Margaret?", "Catcher In The Rye", "Brave New World", "Where the Wild Things Are", and "The Scarlet Letter" were banned in one place or another.

    When I was a little, little kid some people tried to ban Dr. Seuss from the local library; I dearly loved my Dr. Seuss. (Drug references? Magic? Rebellious cats freak people out? Just too groovy? No idea why.) I couldn't understand how they could ban a book so it wouldn't be there for me. For one thing, his books are marvelous, and everyone should read them everyday. For another, it wasn't possible to make the books go away, because I had already read the books. How can they ban something after people read it, and know it by heart? Such is the intensely egocentric logic of a five-year-old.

    In any case, when there was a controversy over "Lorax" my parents gave it to me as a present and said I had to read it. They explained that people don't get scared of ideas, unless the ideas are very powerful. Such was my family.

    I can also remember when, a few years later, I needed a signed permission slip to take part in my Honors English class learning about "Romeo and Juliet". This was around the time "the teen-suicide epidemic" was the moral panic of the week.

    I think that was after D&D was teaching devil worship, but before drug-dealers at the playground were holding us kids down and forcing us to try crack. I could have my timeline of moral panics wrong; it gets a little hazy somewhere between "scratch-and-sniffs are lsd" and "nursery schools are ritually sacrificing babies".

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    • Originally posted by Aleph View Post

      Nazis and alt-right aren't the only ones that are against "globalists". Far before alt-right was a thing, old leftist hippies that played Mage used to talk about "The Man" and about "Globalization". Remember?. I do remember. I remember that many splats were depicted as underdogs fighting the system with a very hippie vive about them - and, people, the system it's global.
      "The Man", as in US corporate neo-imperialism, yes - but "globalism", a concept that hinges on fear for one's own country's sovereignty, as a specter for the Western left is relatively recent and only because very very very stupid people bought into right-wing antisemitic conspiracy theories (the promoters of said conspiracy theories aren't necessarily themselves antisemites, but the theories originated with the Elders of Zion with the serial number filed off). And yes, it is woven into the fabric of Mage the Ascension ("New World Order" as a black helicopter conspiracy is an idea that arose from right-wing fears about the United Nations), and it has always made me deeply uncomfortable, even while loving a lot about Mage..
      Last edited by glamourweaver; 07-11-2018, 07:49 PM.


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      • Originally posted by PMárk View Post
        That's how the revolution eats up its own children, I guess. You just can't be pure enough if you don't toe the line in every respect and even then, you will be called out, since there are different lines and it's impossible to toe all of them.
        Happily, there are places where you can get help : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkUOwBCt_0g

        There's a certain irony in a Swedish company being plagued by trolls, but I wish they'd all go back to lurking under bridges. Like urban foxes, they're a species that's adapted to a new ecosystem by wallowing in garbage. Heaven knows, I dislike several of the key design choices that they seem to have made in the new edition, and I've said so, but driving someone off social media with personal abuse is another matter altogether. Somebody send for the third Billy Goat Gruff

        Originally posted by Cifer View Post
        Considering they're already about to continue multiple game lines, I would assume Dark Ages will be in there somewhere down the line.
        I loved DAV20 and if you'd like to run a DA game, it's what I'd choose.

        That said, despite my reservations about the V5 rule changes looking overcomplicated and limiting, I would be quite excited to see a V5 DA iteration. There does appear to be some very nice and interesting stuff in V5, enough that I would certainly buy the new DA edition to see how they applied that to the middle ages.

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        • It's shit like this latest controversy that makes me utterly despise modern politics, both left and right.

          I don't like V5 either, but Olivia Hill doxxing Matthew Dawkins (one of the most civil and respectable of all the people at NuWW) and all these trolls going after him and other WW employees is going way too far.

          Fuck those pathetic trolling asshats. If you don't like V5, do what I do and just don't buy it. Do NOT harass people online over it. It's just a freakin' game!

          Comment


          • I don´t like the direction of V5 mainly becuase of hunger dices but I am civil about it as everyone should be.

            Now I would like to belive that all this controversy comes from bad reading comprehension but the true it´s that if somebody interprets things like being able to choose to play the paper of a Nazi as the same thing as being a Nazi (No actor in movie history played a Nazi) then we are talking about SJW without life that feel the "compulsion" to hate and create controversy were there isn´t , they are more beast than a man so shame for them and all my support to Matthew Dawkins and the rest of the WW team.

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            • Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
              I don´t like the direction of V5 mainly becuase of hunger dices but I am civil about it as everyone should be.

              Now I would like to belive that all this controversy comes from bad reading comprehension but the true it´s that if somebody interprets things like being able to choose to play the paper of a Nazi as the same thing as being a Nazi (No actor in movie history played a Nazi) then we are talking about SJW without life that feel the "compulsion" to hate and create controversy were there isn´t , they are more beast than a man so shame for them and all my support to Matthew Dawkins and the rest of the WW team.
              I'm inclined to say "it's complicated" - on the one hand, yeah, people are reading a lot of stuff into things that most likely weren't meant to be taken that way, not even in a dog-whistling way. On the other hand side, White Wolf did have some missteps along the way (see Brujah clan weakness "triggered") and masterfully avoided acknowledging that their actions were ambiguous, though I did notice them removing the word from the second playtest.
              Whether or not anyone was at fault, it is of course completely inacceptable to harass Onyx Path or White Wolf staff or any other person over this.

              Also, it might be best to refrain from using loaded terminology like SJW when trying to discuss these things calmly.

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              • Originally posted by Aleph View Post

                Indeed, I haven't read the entire debate so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I remember a controvertial lesbian character that murder/rapped Trump voters and was presented in very positive light...how it's that going to attract the Alt-Right?

                I do think WW are a bunch of edgelords but...I think that the polemical article it's wrong about several points if not most of them

                For instance: vampires being underdog antagonized by a secret globalist conspiracy

                Nazis and alt-right aren't the only ones that are against "globalists". Far before alt-right was a thing, old leftist hippies that played Mage used to talk about "The Man" and about "Globalization". Remember?. I do remember. I remember that many splats were depicted as underdogs fighting the system with a very hippie vive about them - and, people, the system it's global.

                So this whole anti-global attitude it's very old. It's very much leftist. I don't think it comes from nazi ninjas but rather as a consequence of One World of Darkness.

                A shadowy globalist conspiracy hunting mosnters?

                C'mon people. You know WoD.

                You know that Mage it's to blame



                Trolls and edgelords are like bread and butter: You can't be a good edgelord if you don't know how to troll.

                Then again, I wouldn't demand the use of *triggered* in it's correct medical aception: The idea that *triggered* jokes on the internet are somehow becoming rare it's trully new to me. Last time I checked You-Tube was full of them.
                Well said. About Mage too, and the general "fighting the MAN" theme through WoD.

                Also, I said it in a former topic and I'll say it again: Edgy and edgelord have lost its pejorative meaning to me. For one, edgy was a positive word, before some 4chan asshats started to use it negatively. For two, going along the lines of what is considered "edgy" and "edgelord-y" nowadays, come on, Vampire and the whole WoD is/was practically THE edgelord game from day one. And it is not a bad thing, at all.


                If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                • Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

                  Meh, since the first primate said "Oog" when her neighbor wanted her to say "Boog" there have been people getting hysterical over words.

                  I'm old enough to remember back to the dusty dark days before the internet. I would go to a library to read books I had discovered through a card-catalog. The books, they say, were made of real paper, and - for some inexplicable reason lost to the mists of time - they only worked if you were in a very, very quiet room with lots of granite and marble on the floors and the walls. Which is especially odd, since stone walls tend to amplify sound, but I digress.

                  Anyway, there were always people working to ban, disparage, fearmonger, or just exhibit pout-rage over some book or another. I can personally remember when "Charlotte's Web", "Are You There, God, It's Me Margaret?", "Catcher In The Rye", "Brave New World", "Where the Wild Things Are", and "The Scarlet Letter" were banned in one place or another.

                  When I was a little, little kid some people tried to ban Dr. Seuss from the local library; I dearly loved my Dr. Seuss. (Drug references? Magic? Rebellious cats freak people out? Just too groovy? No idea why.) I couldn't understand how they could ban a book so it wouldn't be there for me. For one thing, his books are marvelous, and everyone should read them everyday. For another, it wasn't possible to make the books go away, because I had already read the books. How can they ban something after people read it, and know it by heart? Such is the intensely egocentric logic of a five-year-old.

                  In any case, when there was a controversy over "Lorax" my parents gave it to me as a present and said I had to read it. They explained that people don't get scared of ideas, unless the ideas are very powerful. Such was my family.

                  I can also remember when, a few years later, I needed a signed permission slip to take part in my Honors English class learning about "Romeo and Juliet". This was around the time "the teen-suicide epidemic" was the moral panic of the week.

                  I think that was after D&D was teaching devil worship, but before drug-dealers at the playground were holding us kids down and forcing us to try crack. I could have my timeline of moral panics wrong; it gets a little hazy somewhere between "scratch-and-sniffs are lsd" and "nursery schools are ritually sacrificing babies".
                  I might add, it's somewhat tought-inducing that the USA seems to be prone to these wild moral panics and histerics. Also, why is it that half the games coming from European authors would be, or very well are "too much" for the US audience nowadays? While at the same time the US gave us very dark movies, comics, books and yes, even WoD? As a Hungarian, I'm really scratching my head about the social dynamics here.


                  Regardless, as fo my initial point: of course i recognize the myriad positive sides of the internet and for creators too. Just take crowdfounding. But I think it has its very counterproductive sides too. Small bands of haters and wild critics just had lesser voice back then (well, aside from mentioned, society-wide histerics).


                  If nothing worked, then let's think!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                    I might add, it's somewhat tought-inducing that the USA seems to be prone to these wild moral panics and histerics. Also, why is it that half the games coming from European authors would be, or very well are "too much" for the US audience nowadays? While at the same time the US gave us very dark movies, comics, books and yes, even WoD? As a Hungarian, I'm really scratching my head about the social dynamics here.
                    There is a small but incredibly vocal group who have the same feeling for all the dark stuff that 1920's prohibitionists had for alcohol and Victorians had about sex. The "moral panics" of which you speak are not actually much of a panic for most of the country. Most of us have a lot more tempered feelings about these things, or will take time to do the research.


                    "At the risk of sounding like a murder hobo"

                    Attributed to Nyrufa.

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                    • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                      Specifically, Olivia Hill shared an email without scrubbing it under the assumption that it was a publicly associated email account (it was one Matthew has openly associated with in interviews/etc.), and has apologized and taken that down..
                      Yes, it was such a heartfelt apology, that Olivia CONTINUES to double down posting more screen caps of Matthew's facebook account, and other assorted information. Such a calm and level-headed woman she is...

                      EDIT: I noticed they(Facebook) forced Olivia to take down a recent post she made where she was engaging in more harassment of Matthew. Good. Although, I find it funny that she thinks she's the victim in all of this. Can't say I'm surprised, however.


                      PENTEX SUCKS.

                      I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

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                      • Originally posted by Fat Larry View Post

                        Yes, it was such a heartfelt apology, that Olivia CONTINUES to double down posting more screen caps of Matthew's facebook account, and other assorted information. Such a calm and level-headed woman she is...

                        EDIT: I noticed they(Facebook) forced Olivia to take down a recent post she made where she was engaging in more harassment of Matthew. Good. Although, I find it funny that she thinks she's the victim in all of this. Can't say I'm surprised, however.
                        And so this shit spirals out of control. Good gravy. Got any links for posterity's sake?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by thebiglarpnerd View Post

                          And so this shit spirals out of control. Good gravy. Got any links for posterity's sake?

                          I saw she(Olivia Hill) deleted the posts so I can't access them. But she DID make a post stating how it was deleted.

                          The posts were screen caps showing conversations Matthew had on social media.

                          It's...it's actually really, REALLY fucking disturbing. But hey, her followers are eating it up. So, cool, right?

                          ...


                          PENTEX SUCKS.

                          I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

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                          • Originally posted by Camilla View Post
                            It's shit like this latest controversy that makes me utterly despise modern politics, both left and right.

                            I don't like V5 either, but Olivia Hill doxxing Matthew Dawkins (one of the most civil and respectable of all the people at NuWW) and all these trolls going after him and other WW employees is going way too far.

                            Fuck those pathetic trolling asshats. If you don't like V5, do what I do and just don't buy it. Do NOT harass people online over it. It's just a freakin' game!
                            Right Matthew Dawkins the guy who doxxed dice dog to a pair of known magic the gathering gamer gators is so civil give me a break. yeah did fat Larry not mention that that was the conversation Olivia posted?


                            Despite the user name I am actually bigender.

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                            • Originally posted by The young man in the cafe View Post

                              Right Matthew Dawkins the guy who doxxed dice dog to a pair of known magic the gathering gamer gators is so civil give me a break. yeah did fat Larry not mention that that was the conversation Olivia posted?
                              This is definitely not how things went down. I mean, feel free to run with that story, but you'd be wrong. Olivia Hill has been posting nothing but anti-Onyx Path and Anti-White Wolf hatred for MONTHS. MONTHS. She was the one who initially brought Matthew into the conversation. He has been nothing but civil the ENTIRE time, while she's thrown more and more wood into the flames--despite apologizing and stating that she was wrong for doing so. She's simply doubled down.

                              She(and one more person who I won't name) has carried on a vendetta against Onyx Path and White Wolf for over a year, and it's frankly disturbing. But hey, see what you will.
                              Last edited by Fat Larry; 07-11-2018, 10:10 PM.


                              PENTEX SUCKS.

                              I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

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                              • Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post

                                I would pick up the DAV20. It's a great book and all you need really.
                                I'm afraid not. I'm kind of short on cash and so must spend what I can on games wisely,

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