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  • I am happy to explain.

    I had no idea the blog author was just known under a pseudonym. When he shared the article over Facebook, if was as [his name] in some places. This led to a lot of people I knew who were discussing it, referring to him as [his name]. My mistake though, and I'll own it. I apologised on Twitter, I deleted the Tweets where I used his name, and I will still be trying to find out where I can apologise to him one on one.


    Matthew Dawkins
    In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing

    ~Hapax Legomenon~

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    • 1, Just chiming in to say that while I do disagree with some design decisions in V5, I don't for a second think that it is pro-alt-right, and that noone has the right to doxx anyone. Be at least moderately civil in your actions, people.

      2, Who is this Olivia Hill? I have not followed the social media thunderstorm in a teacup.


      Last edited by Herbert_West; 07-12-2018, 06:40 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by The young man in the cafe View Post

        Right Matthew Dawkins the guy who doxxed dice dog to a pair of known magic the gathering gamer gators is so civil give me a break. yeah did fat Larry not mention that that was the conversation Olivia posted?

        What the fuck are you going on about? I don't remember any of that happening.

        EDIT-Both Fat Larry and Dawkins himself have cleared things up and proven this statement of yours to be wrong.

        Also, GamerGate is dead and irrelevant. Why are you even bringing it up? It has nothing to do with this conversation.
        Last edited by Camilla; 07-12-2018, 06:14 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Herbert_West View Post
          Who is this Olivia Hill? I have not followed the social media thunderstorm in a teacup.
          A very prolific Onyx Path ex-freelancer, though she was operating in her pretransition identity for that time so you'd probably recognize her better by her deadname David Hill Jr.

          Originally posted by Camilla View Post
          What the fuck are you going on about? I don't remember any of that happening.
          The with the amount of speed and vitriol this has stirred up, keeping track of it is basically impossible in the moment, and almost everything we hear as it happens is 2nd or 3rd hand with the biases involved in that process.

          Also, GamerGate is dead and irrelevant. Why are you even bringing it up? It has nothing to do with this conversation.
          Because it really, really isn't?

          The initial instigating harassment that created GG is over (sorta, it's not like she's not still dealing with Internet harassment and people misrepresenting what happened), but the troll-cesspool harassment farm created in its wake has been rather active lately; more so after what happened with Arenanet/Guild Wars 2. Given the overlapping social media circles (Jessica Price was a TT RPG developer before doing video games full time), and a bunch of GGer trolls looking for more targets... it's unfortunately very likely they stumbled onto this and have been fanning the flames.

          This is speculation of course... but there wasn't really anything new in Dice Dog's article. The ex-Onyx Path folks have been voicing their grievance for a very long time. We've known who the core V5 development team is for a year. And... nothing managed to blow it all up until now. So I feel fairly comfortable in assuming that a bunch of GG types looking for a fresh hell to inflict on people, having a bridge from their last target to this, and the speed of how this all spiraled out of control is a sign that there's at least some GG trolling happening if only because they're exactly the asshats that would do it just to make it worse.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post



            Because it really, really isn't?

            The initial instigating harassment that created GG is over (sorta, it's not like she's not still dealing with Internet harassment and people misrepresenting what happened), but the troll-cesspool harassment farm created in its wake has been rather active lately; more so after what happened with Arenanet/Guild Wars 2. Given the overlapping social media circles (Jessica Price was a TT RPG developer before doing video games full time), and a bunch of GGer trolls looking for more targets... it's unfortunately very likely they stumbled onto this and have been fanning the flames.

            This is speculation of course... but there wasn't really anything new in Dice Dog's article. The ex-Onyx Path folks have been voicing their grievance for a very long time. We've known who the core V5 development team is for a year. And... nothing managed to blow it all up until now. So I feel fairly comfortable in assuming that a bunch of GG types looking for a fresh hell to inflict on people, having a bridge from their last target to this, and the speed of how this all spiraled out of control is a sign that there's at least some GG trolling happening if only because they're exactly the asshats that would do it just to make it worse.

            I'm not even going to argue this bullshit anymore. You believe what you want to believe. If you want to believe that GamerGate is a grandiose conspiracy and not a dead hashtag movement full of internet morons, then more power to you.

            I don't like GamerGate either, but the PC elements of the Far Left act like GamerGate is some bizarre hybrid of the Waffen-SS and the Illuminati and not just a group of idiots and harassers on the internet that ceased being relevant around 2015.

            I'm bowing out of this thread for good. We've reached peak insanity.
            Last edited by Camilla; 07-12-2018, 07:16 AM.

            Comment


            • Returning to the original theme of the threat becuase I don´t care at all about what all those haters say.

              What do people think about Bane Severity?
              Altrough I am completelity against Hunger Dices and I think V5 may not be for me, evolutionary clan weakness is something I houseruled long ago to happen if your humanity/self control is too low so Im fine with it

              And what about compulsions?
              I don´t like the idea becuase on one hand they limit the posibilities of roleplaying on the other hand they reinforce the bestial side of the vampire so I am thinking of the posibility of an optional system without HD mechanics where clans get a compulsion that could be resisted by rolling WP at diff 6 maybe 8 like for example giving the territorial flaw to the tzimisce clan if the one who enters in their haven is uninvited.Idoubt i will implement this but I find the discussion interesting.Thoughts?


              Hunger pool

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                I don´t like the idea becuase on one hand they limit the posibilities of roleplaying
                I think that's only the case if you use a list of pre-generated and/or randomly rolled Compulsions. If the ST and players work together to quickly come up with a fun, interesting, and appropriate Compulsion at the table, I think they would be really cool.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Fat Larry View Post
                  ...And to be fair, they have their supporters lock step with their opinions that generally back them...
                  Bringing this topic back to somewhere approaching the realm of sensibility, I often find myself wondering if this is a consequence of a generational gap of sorts. Not in terms of age necessarily, but in sensibility and experience with cWoD. For good or ill, the OPP works brought back (or introduced) a new wave of players to cWoD, most notably in this case with their "contemporary liberal" bent. It strikes me, as I stated in an earlier post, one of the common themes it seems among these newer or returning players are significant (oft-willful, in my opinion) gaps in knowledge or understanding of the underlying themes and social commentary of cWoD, which contextualize the commentary and/or world-building with which these players take issue, especially when compounded by pre-existing values and beliefs, and political/ideological orthodoxy, on their part.

                  The prototypical VtM game is about youthful upstarts with contemporary sensibilities, battling against an entrenched establishment of elders whose sensibilities irreconcilably clash with their youngers', in order to carve out a place for themselves in the society of the undead. In that, nothing's changed. What has, is that earlier editions painted the generational conflict as foolish in the long run; vampires grow old and powerful, inevitably make compromises and choices which degrade humanity, and unless they die youthful upstarts integrate into the establishment to fight the next generation of youthful upstarts. Thus, VtM is a world of clashing shades of grey, vampires more often than not are utter bastards and hypocrites (even the youthful upstarts), and politics are filthy and confusing with no bad guys or good guys, just winners and losers who vie to leverage their struggles into propaganda.

                  Where OPP diverged, is by introducing the concept neonates and ancillae in a state of arrested development are actually capable of changing the system, ostensibly for the better. There's no better explanation for their glorification of the Anarchs, who until V20 are depicted as a group of pitiable cop-outs only really capable of indulging their baser instincts under the thinnest of excuses they're waging a war of liberation for the Kindred soul, whose scant few victories were only thanks to direct intervention by the very elders they claim to want to overthrow, who were exploiting the Anarchs for the sake of personal gain, and quickly re-established the status quo even though the language justifying it differed.

                  And, it ballooned from there, all the way to BJD where suddenly bloodlines capable of committing, and willing to commit, the most heinous acts among the undead were re-framed as long-oppressed minorities plotting from the shadows to overthrow the establishment and build a new order. Mortal, not undead, identity markers such as religion, ethnicity, nationality, gender, and sexuality took the forefront, and clan/bloodline identity was employed as analog and symbol for them. Nowhere was seen the "mortal identity is meaningless to a vampire among their own kind, only age and generation. Whether or not an elder has a penis, or the color of their skin, matters when they're able and willing to rip you limb from limb in the blink of an eye if you can't tell the difference between a soup spoon and a parfait spoon, even though they can't actually eat mortal food and the distinction to them is only a matter of principle." sensibility of earlier editions, where characters like Theo Bell whose mortal identity is integral to his personality are presented as the exception rather than the rule (and he's a much better and compelling character for it).

                  Theo Bell is great because he's special. When all characters are like Theo Bell, Theo Bell is no longer special. And if Theo Bell is no longer special, he's no longer great...and neither is anyone else, for that matter.

                  All in all, the cWoD OPP presented, even though it's mechanically superior to previous editions in my opinion, is less politically and socially complex because it reframed VtM as more dichotomous than it had ever been previously. In that context, the idea of a neo-Nazi Brujah becomes aberrant despite all evidence over twenty-five years' worth of publication (part of which I discussed earlier) to the contrary. In the big picture, a neo-Nazi Brujah doesn't normalize* Nazis in the way that's been claimed, because for that to occur Brujah must be "good guys" and they are definitively not "good guys". They're a horde of violent bullies who appropriate en vogue politics to excuse their brutality, whose core ideology can only be characterized as "revolutionary to take power, totalitarian once in power".

                  Honestly, it says more about the sort of person who'd view the Brujah, collectively, as "good guys" enough to even get to that point.

                  [* Of course, all this boils down to the complete, bad-faith in my opinion, misinterpretation of normalization that's become so popular among contemporary academia and social activists. As someone who's read Foucault, I can't help but call bullshit -- they conflate normalization and cultivation.]
                  Last edited by Theodrim; 07-12-2018, 12:37 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                    Returning to the original theme of the threat becuase I don´t care at all about what all those haters say.

                    What do people think about Bane Severity?
                    Altrough I am completelity against Hunger Dices and I think V5 may not be for me, evolutionary clan weakness is something I houseruled long ago to happen if your humanity/self control is too low so Im fine with it

                    And what about compulsions?
                    I don´t like the idea becuase on one hand they limit the posibilities of roleplaying on the other hand they reinforce the bestial side of the vampire so I am thinking of the posibility of an optional system without HD mechanics where clans get a compulsion that could be resisted by rolling WP at diff 6 maybe 8 like for example giving the territorial flaw to the tzimisce clan if the one who enters in their haven is uninvited.Idoubt i will implement this but I find the discussion interesting.Thoughts?
                    Bane severity seems very Requiem to me,and i enjoy it,Masquerade could learn a thing or two from Requiem
                    Compulsions are a mixed bag,but i like new challenges

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                      Returning to the original theme of the threat becuase I don´t care at all about what all those haters say.

                      What do people think about Bane Severity?
                      Altrough I am completelity against Hunger Dices and I think V5 may not be for me, evolutionary clan weakness is something I houseruled long ago to happen if your humanity/self control is too low so Im fine with it

                      And what about compulsions?
                      I don´t like the idea becuase on one hand they limit the posibilities of roleplaying on the other hand they reinforce the bestial side of the vampire so I am thinking of the posibility of an optional system without HD mechanics where clans get a compulsion that could be resisted by rolling WP at diff 6 maybe 8 like for example giving the territorial flaw to the tzimisce clan if the one who enters in their haven is uninvited.Idoubt i will implement this but I find the discussion interesting.Thoughts?
                      Just to nitpick, it's dice. Die is singular, dice is plural.

                      I like the concept of the bane severity, and have housruled something like that in before with evolving weaknesses based in Generation and Humanity rating. I look forward to seeing what it will be based from.

                      I'm also fine with compulsions. Particularly since the alpha has the player choosing them or choosing to roll on the table, or spending a Composure to psub it back. But I also like some of the rokeplay tension it can provide, like the example of staring predatorially at the mail person walking by your office for just a bit too long. And if the rules stay roughly the same roleplaying them out nets you a Composure point.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Camilla View Post
                        I'm not even going to argue this bullshit anymore. You believe what you want to believe. If you want to believe that GamerGate is a grandiose conspiracy and not a dead hashtag movement full of internet morons, then more power to you.

                        I don't like GamerGate either, but the PC elements of the Far Left act like GamerGate is some bizarre hybrid of the Waffen-SS and the Illuminati and not just a group of idiots and harassers on the internet that ceased being relevant around 2015.

                        I'm bowing out of this thread for good. We've reached peak insanity.
                        What, you don't think these are basically the same guys because of whom Kelly Marie Tran deleted her social media account last month?

                        Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                        And what about compulsions?
                        I don´t like the idea becuase on one hand they limit the posibilities of roleplaying on the other hand they reinforce the bestial side of the vampire so I am thinking of the posibility of an optional system without HD mechanics where clans get a compulsion that could be resisted by rolling WP at diff 6 maybe 8 like for example giving the territorial flaw to the tzimisce clan if the one who enters in their haven is uninvited.Idoubt i will implement this but I find the discussion interesting.Thoughts?
                        I must say I like the idea (though I'm still somewhat uncertain about the implementation - but we've already seen them evolve from pre-alpha to alpha).
                        The trouble with frenzy is that it's all-or-nothing. You're either in frenzy or perfectly in control. And there's really no way to safeguard against frenzy by your behaviour when it's just governed by self-control, a stat that always stays the same.

                        Take a vampire. She wakes up, fresh as the new dusk, goes to Elysium where she meets with several thoroughly unpleasant people who proceed to . She goes out and is ambushed by some Sabbat thugs who proceed to murder her favorite ghoul in front of her. She gets help by the Sheriff who still lets slip how the worst thing about this situation is him having to make sure there's no masquerade breach
                        Somewhere in this nightly disaster, there's that guy who gets in her face and doesn't let off on how 'her kind' should stay in their home country where they belong.
                        Roll for frenzy. Strangely, it doesn't matter whether she meets that guy at the beginning of her night or at the end after having been through all the other stuff - she still rolls exactly the same dice. The Compulsion mechanic where you can pull yourself together when it comes to the little stuff at the cost of being more vulnerable to the Beast in its big moments sounds pretty good.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cifer View Post

                          I must say I like the idea (though I'm still somewhat uncertain about the implementation - but we've already seen them evolve from pre-alpha to alpha).
                          The trouble with frenzy is that it's all-or-nothing. You're either in frenzy or perfectly in control. And there's really no way to safeguard against frenzy by your behaviour when it's just governed by self-control, a stat that always stays the same.

                          Take a vampire. She wakes up, fresh as the new dusk, goes to Elysium where she meets with several thoroughly unpleasant people who proceed to . She goes out and is ambushed by some Sabbat thugs who proceed to murder her favorite ghoul in front of her. She gets help by the Sheriff who still lets slip how the worst thing about this situation is him having to make sure there's no masquerade breach
                          Somewhere in this nightly disaster, there's that guy who gets in her face and doesn't let off on how 'her kind' should stay in their home country where they belong.
                          Roll for frenzy. Strangely, it doesn't matter whether she meets that guy at the beginning of her night or at the end after having been through all the other stuff - she still rolls exactly the same dice. The Compulsion mechanic where you can pull yourself together when it comes to the little stuff at the cost of being more vulnerable to the Beast in its big moments sounds pretty good.
                          Now that's a very interesting argument. My initial thought when I saw Compulsions was "We Are All Malkavians Now". This is the first time I've seen any kind of upside to them.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                            I must say I like the idea (though I'm still somewhat uncertain about the implementation - but we've already seen them evolve from pre-alpha to alpha).
                            The trouble with frenzy is that it's all-or-nothing. You're either in frenzy or perfectly in control. And there's really no way to safeguard against frenzy by your behaviour when it's just governed by self-control, a stat that always stays the same.

                            Take a vampire. She wakes up, fresh as the new dusk, goes to Elysium where she meets with several thoroughly unpleasant people who proceed to . She goes out and is ambushed by some Sabbat thugs who proceed to murder her favorite ghoul in front of her. She gets help by the Sheriff who still lets slip how the worst thing about this situation is him having to make sure there's no masquerade breach
                            Somewhere in this nightly disaster, there's that guy who gets in her face and doesn't let off on how 'her kind' should stay in their home country where they belong.
                            Roll for frenzy. Strangely, it doesn't matter whether she meets that guy at the beginning of her night or at the end after having been through all the other stuff - she still rolls exactly the same dice. The Compulsion mechanic where you can pull yourself together when it comes to the little stuff at the cost of being more vulnerable to the Beast in its big moments sounds pretty good.
                            Well in the old system the Storyteller could adjust the frenzy difficulties acording to the circunstances so what you said was posible furthermore even if you get one succes you still need to roll until you get 5 success with could be done if you have self control 5 and too much luck so I won´t say frenzy was over with one roll.

                            Now about the compulsion I feel that they could have been an OK idea to denote the instintual and feral nature of the beast taking over your self-awareness if they didn´t have a mechanic as intrusive as Hunger Dices behind.Something like if you don´t get enought sucesses in the frenzy check you must choose between taking a compulsion (if it´s posible to realize) or enter in frenzy.Other option will be if you are present with the oportunity to realize your clan compulsion you must roll WP diff 6/8 to control yourself , or make the number of success needed in the next frenzy check increase if you have compulsions to resolve etc...



                            Hunger pool

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                              What do people think about Bane Severity?
                              The general concept is fine. The VtM and VtR 1e weaknesses being static was frequently a problem in applying them to the game. VtR 2e using variable severity banes plays really well.

                              Of course that runs into the "how much are they borrowing from VtR 2e here?" thing all over again.

                              A lot of it is going to come down to what controls Bane Severity, and how well it's applied across the Clans. Making the banes variable doesn't fix things alone. The unevenness of the VtM weaknesses can easily still exist even if there's a variable knob attached to it; especially if Bane Severity is more ST based than linked to something else.

                              The VtM weaknesses have lots of problems. Some are vague, leading them to be extremely inconsistent in experience because of different interpretations; Bane Severity doesn't address that (we already have the Toreador Bane to demonstrate this). Some are exceedingly specific circumstances that are easily mitigated, leading to tension for STs where they want to bring those weaknesses into play but it feels too contrived to do so regularly (a lot of the classic vampire weakness ones like extra sunlight damage are like this); which isn't something a variable will change much unless it's well integrated into some sort of incentive. This also has issues with some of these being "all or nothing" weaknesses where they might never go off, but when they do they're much harsher for it. Some weaknesses are omnipresent (Nosferatu and Malkavians esp.) and hard to juggle because they always have to be accounted for, though Bane Severity probably helps the most here as long is it doesn't get too weird like a Nosferatu's looks changing a lot because of however Severity is determined.

                              And what about compulsions?
                              They seem rather... superfluous at this point. I mean, I do actually like the idea of a states between "normal" and "frenzied," but every preview seems to add more things that fill the role compulsions seem to be intended to fill, and the composure vs. willpower thing (assuming that's still there) adds to the feeling that it's more work than it's worth.

                              The idea of having both Clan Banes and Clan specific compulsions seems iffy (how many downsides do Clans need to establish that part of their character?), Messy Crits also do some of the "Beast leaks out and makes a mess" stuff and does so without the "you freeze in the middle of combat and die" risks, and there has to be some room for whatever Stains are that's going to enter into the same space since the preview implies they're part of the consequences of doing "bad things."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Camilla View Post


                                I'm not even going to argue this bullshit anymore. You believe what you want to believe. If you want to believe that GamerGate is a grandiose conspiracy and not a dead hashtag movement full of internet morons, then more power to you.

                                I don't like GamerGate either, but the PC elements of the Far Left act like GamerGate is some bizarre hybrid of the Waffen-SS and the Illuminati and not just a group of idiots and harassers on the internet that ceased being relevant around 2015.
                                If this is what you think people think is happening, you both have a poor understanding of how these sort of groups work and grasping what people are getting at. Which is just surprising, given your context.[/sarcasm]

                                The thing about the people who make up GG, Sad Puppies, a good base of the people who are screaming about "SJW cucks" on White Wolf's facebook page-they were always there. A lot of the people who popped up with the surgeance of GamerGate were not new to the arguments they were making, but instead people who already had an axe to grind-and that didn't go away once GamerGate became a somewhat tired reference. The same is true of those tentpole characters and communities that did spring up as a result of the cresting of GamerGate's influence-they lost the mask, but the cults of personalities and the people at the center of them remained, and have just latched onto new tags and identifiers to keep up their own shit flinging.

                                This isn't to suggest a concerted conspiracy, but rather that communities and people of influence on the internet are tenaciously persistent in their views, and that any flag will do for a "war" for them. THey wear movements like masks and discard them just as easily, keeping their core problems in tact while movie from spot to spot. Look across the Star Wars Boycotts, the most vitriolic V5 supporters, the old GamerGaters, the Sad Puppies and more, and you find a trend of repeating faces.

                                THese are a group of idiot harrassers on the internet. The problem is that you are associating the costume with the actor and denying the perpetuity of assholes as a result.

                                So, in short, Camilla, you pay too much attention to the surface and not enough to the substance, which is. Well, not surprising, given your long standing way of viewing things.


                                Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                                Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.
                                Currently Working On: Memento Mori(GtSE)

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