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  • #31
    Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
    Ah,fascinating. It makes sense,guess i though they wete more like Nines Rodriguez and Damsel than they really are
    Well, Bloodlines took a more... let's say simplyfied picture of the VtM political landscape and the clans.

    Yes, there are many Brujah among the Anarchs (though msotly the mentioned youngsters, who will grew out of it) and the Brujah Antritribu is maybe the most numerous clan of the sabbat, behind the Lasombra and Tzimisce.

    In general, the Brujah are everywhere, they LOVE attaching to causes. It's just, most of the Cam Brujah, especially if they aren't complete neonates, are like to be in the Camarilla, or might maintain an ambigous halfway-in-halfway in the Anarch camp stance. I believe Nines and co. did that too, after all, they were on the gathering LaCroix had given at the very beggining of the game, meaning they were at least hearing out this new-fangled prince and didn't waged an all-out war against him, until shit went down.


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    • #32
      Originally posted by PMárk View Post
      Honestly, the more I'm thinking about it, the more and more I see it as the Brujah neonates, born/embraced after 2000, are leaving the Camarilla and that the write-up mostly represents them, with all the mentioning of contemporary political idelogies and movements.

      Basically, that most of the newest generation of the Brujah are from the proglib-activist scene and that's all and they brought the mentality into their unlives and thought that it is a good idea to defect the grouchy old oppressive patriarchy they likely viewed the Camarilla as.

      I'm not saying it's bad, I'm not even saying it's not a fitting interpretation of this generation of Brujah neonates. On the contrary, it's quite plausible. It's not even less stereotypical than the biker-punk Brujah of the former generation. The Brujah are like that, they're constantly seeking out new blood and ideas and fiery individuals and now, in the West, this is it.

      It's just not the Brujah I liked, though, I think fittingly, it perfectly mirrors how I feel about the whole political discussion lately.

      Which lines up with the developers talking about the most playable options being ancillae and neonates. It's also pretty easy to lean away from political countercultures and other things can become inspiration.

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      • #33
        Anything else aside (really not fond of Touchstones as a bolt on from Requiem either thematically, system wise, or what have you), the Toreador segment really put me off.

        It's difficult to see how the Toreador clan weakness doesn't make them hobbled in most situations the player can't somehow argue isn't "less than beautiful" and have the ST accept, which is to say, most situations. "Severity of clan weakness depends on fiat" is not a great look. "Anytime in less than beautiful surroundings" could be.. I mean, almost anywhere. Even the book itself comes off as stating that to be the case (the "even this really specific group can't justify city streets for avoiding the penalty"). At least previously there was a resistance roll.

        The "Toreador are entranced by decapitations and traumatized children" also seems.. kinda edgelordy for nothing more than the sake of it, frankly. I would have figured that for the Sabbat branch at minimum, not in a mainline description.

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        • #34
          I've given it a good read.

          Sadly I dislike the tone look and feel, so even the source books I doubt will appeal to me, as well as think far too much has changed to be considered the same game. I read the clan novels so who knows maybe I'll pick up a novel or two with good reviews, but I'm not switching from classic. Shame they dropped the V20 DAV20 lines.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by elmerg View Post


            Which lines up with the developers talking about the most playable options being ancillae and neonates. It's also pretty easy to lean away from political countercultures and other things can become inspiration.
            Yeah, but honestly, for my tastes, the Brujah writeup leans a bit too heavily on the poitical activist angle (at least they've made some token attempts to not being completely one-sided in representation of archetypes, but the narrative is fairly obvious). I get it, really, back then musical subcultures was the Big Thing, nowadays, the cultural civil war in the West. The Brujah was always the clan most close to these things and the youth of it mostly coming from those groups, thus representing the rebellious youth from the kine coming into a rebellious youth unlife.

            As I said, I get it, I just don't like it. I loved the former interpretation of the Brujah, this, I don't. I'd have use it, but wouldn't made 90% of it about this. I suspect the Anarch books will be the same. And I want to make it clear: it's not the "I don't want politics in my game" argument, that would be silly in WoD and I don't mind it. I just wouldn't have made it this one-directional.
            Last edited by PMárk; 06-29-2018, 12:24 AM.


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            • #36
              Originally posted by MarkK View Post
              Anything else aside (really not fond of Touchstones as a bolt on from Requiem either thematically, system wise, or what have you), the Toreador segment really put me off.

              It's difficult to see how the Toreador clan weakness doesn't make them hobbled in most situations the player can't somehow argue isn't "less than beautiful" and have the ST accept, which is to say, most situations. "Severity of clan weakness depends on fiat" is not a great look. "Anytime in less than beautiful surroundings" could be.. I mean, almost anywhere. Even the book itself comes off as stating that to be the case (the "even this really specific group can't justify city streets for avoiding the penalty"). At least previously there was a resistance roll.
              I agree that it is waaay too ambiguous. Does clothing matter? Companions?

              Honestly I have this kind of problems with the Celerity writeup too. The whole game seems to has taken a step toward rules-light narrative systems. I don't like those, precisely because of this. "The ST will decide", or "the player and the ST will work it out" is not a good answer to me in profound questions like this. I prefer internal consistency in a game, a sort of consistent simulation of the world and how powers work, etc. I damn well want to know how far I can go with Celerity or in what circumstances I'd get a dice pool penalty. "What most appropriate for the narrative" is just not the style of game I prefer.

              The "Toreador are entranced by decapitations and traumatized children" also seems.. kinda edgelordy for nothing more than the sake of it, frankly. I would have figured that for the Sabbat branch at minimum, not in a mainline description.
              'Shrug.' I'd reiterate: Revised corebook, Ventrue feeding restrictions: naked children. It's WoD, it's VtM, I'm not against edge, it's part of the menu and I won't want it not to be. Call me callous, or edgelord.
              Last edited by PMárk; 06-29-2018, 12:26 AM.


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              • #37
                A pointless, shock value thing in a previous book doesn't make a pointless, shock value thing in this book good, or really anything but looking at a previous mistake and, for reasons I personally find baffling, doubling down. I don't think we're going to manage much of a conversation on whether the idea of the baseline Toreador being so into a snuff film or messed up child that they go enrapt contributes anything worthwhile to the game.

                If that's the sort of thing you've been cool with, hey sure. I've always found it worthlessly excessive and not much more than a "hey, I'm so edgy!" declaration from a writer when I roll into that kind of thing, no matter the edition.

                edit: If that's how far someone needs to reach without being sure they've managed to create a dark or challenging enough atmosphere as far as potential play experiences, for me that mostly speaks to them as failing at their goals with anything but the crudest tools they can grab hold of.
                Last edited by MarkK; 06-29-2018, 12:52 AM. Reason: added a thing for clarity

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by MarkK View Post
                  A pointless, shock value thing in a previous book doesn't make a pointless, shock value thing in this book good, or really anything but looking at a previous mistake and, for reasons I personally find baffling, doubling down. I don't think we're going to manage much of a conversation on whether the idea of the baseline Toreador being so into a snuff film or messed up child that they go enrapt contributes anything worthwhile to the game.

                  If that's the sort of thing you've been cool with, hey sure. I've always found it worthlessly excessive and not much more than a "hey, I'm so edgy!" declaration from a writer when I roll into that kind of thing, no matter the edition.

                  edit: If that's how far someone needs to reach without being sure they've managed to create a dark or challenging enough atmosphere as far as potential play experiences, for me that mostly speaks to them as failing at their goals with anything but the crudest tools they can grab hold of.
                  You do you, I do me, WW does what they're doing. For me, the existence of monstrous things and showing them, to some extent, is part of the parcel in WoD, sorry, but not sorry. It's not because it's "cool", or because I like those things (I'm some things, but not a sicko). Yeah, that Toreador is a monstrous one, likely low-humanity, or on a Path, or something. They exist, the book just gives it as an extreme example, not saying "you have to/should play one like that".

                  It's also not pointless. It shows that the fascinations of a Toreador could go down a very dark path. Yeah, you could dance around it with a lot more subtlety, but honestly, IMO that's a bit overrated nowadays. I liked the in-your-face attitude of earlier editions, that they frequently just said "yeah, it's THAT bad". I think it has it's place. I f you don't like it, fine, for me, it's not among the things I don't like about V5.


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                  • #39
                    I have never found such things to be especially critically load bearing to the experience of the WoD such that you'd really lose much were it not put in your face. People who need or like that sort of thing don't really need help to add it in anyway. But people who are put off by reading that sort of thing are going to be put off by it, and I prefer to think it's basically reasonable to acknowledge that having that sort of subject matter as idle play experience notes might be reasonably off putting, even indeed, in a horror game. The more it is present, be it neo Nazi brujah as an example of the clan, naked kids feeding restriction as you're keen on pointing out from the revised core, the "beauty" of snuff and child trauma, and it basically just being straight up corebook stuff, the more it often feels like matters taking up a "get out of the fanbase if it bugs you so much/you never understood it/could handle it like a real mature gamer anyway" vibe. It's already a dark enough game about vampires, there's only so much help it really needs to get to the place of being one. I'm certainly hoping these bits are more or less about it, because the more this sort of thing is leaned into, it's less "extreme example" and more "this is the atmosphere of this game". It doesn't help that this is coming after stuff like the material that was in the initial playtests, for example, which at least in some quarters were received less than thrillingly. It starts to come off like an ongoing thread travelling through.

                    I've played in VtM games that went right for horror and darkness and exploring traumas effectively, evocatively and movingly just fine without needing to make a rush to dip into those particular sorts of wells.

                    Anyway, if we've reached the noting "sorry, not sorry" part of the discourse, then it's a prophecy has been fulfilled moment as far as exchange of ideas, and that's about as much as I feel worth expressing on the particular subject.
                    Last edited by MarkK; 06-29-2018, 01:52 AM.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by JezMiller View Post

                      That was what Tyler thought, and we all know how that went...
                      Surprisingly Well.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

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                      • #41
                        MarkK you do raise a great point, and I'm kinda curious if the choice to go full Black Dog in the very sparse corebook text was a good idea.

                        It could chase away more people than it draw in.
                        But then again, if it goes sideways, at least we can get Storytellers Vault products.


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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by MarkK View Post
                          I have never found such things to be especially critically load bearing to the experience of the WoD such that you'd really lose much were it not put in your face. People who need or like that sort of thing don't really need help to add it in anyway. But people who are put off by reading that sort of thing are going to be put off by it, and I prefer to think it's basically reasonable to acknowledge that having that sort of subject matter as idle play experience notes might be reasonably off putting, even indeed, in a horror game. The more it is present, be it neo Nazi brujah as an example of the clan, naked kids feeding restriction as you're keen on pointing out from the revised core, the "beauty" of snuff and child trauma, and it basically just being straight up corebook stuff, the more it often feels like matters taking up a "get out of the fanbase if it bugs you so much/you never understood it/could handle it like a real mature gamer anyway" vibe. It's already a dark enough game about vampires, there's only so much help it really needs to get to the place of being one. I'm certainly hoping these bits are more or less about it, because the more this sort of thing is leaned into, it's less "extreme example" and more "this is the atmosphere of this game".
                          To me it didn't seem like that.
                          Saying "look, there are neo-nazi Brujah in the Camarilla" seemed to me just a fast and easy way to say that Cam Brujah aren't good guys. Some of them could be, some of them aren't at all.

                          Same goes for the Toreador sicko stuff. Yeah, it's an approach "in the face" but to me worked well. Sure it's different from Toreador of old. Again much less "good guys humanity-prone vampires". It's a stronger direction no doubt. I understand fans that would dislike it. To me it makes sense in the grand scheme. In the passage of the many editions, as clans got added outside the original seven, Toreador lost a lot of... bite? (sorry, couldn't resist)

                          The newest clans weren't much subtle:
                          oooooh fleshcrafting sicko carpathian vampires with revenants families that ruled in castles of old and also have blood sorcery of sort
                          oooooh necromancer italian vampires based in Venice that diablerized their forefathers
                          oooooh the clan of assassins and diablerists from the middle-east with the super-cool discipline that lets you do aggravated damage with your bloodied sword
                          oooooh the snake corruptors worshipping an egyptian eldritch evil

                          Point is, we all liked them.

                          So to me this Toreador bolder approach (or sillier since it can be both, and also feels edgelordy to some) is a good move. It's an attempt to give an old clan, that felt old, some new bite without changing the clan too much (which fans would have hated).
                          I can't say the spread made me want to play a Toreador (the Brujah one did the trick this time), but surely gave me some inspiration for Toreador antagonists in a chronicle. Which happened only when I discovered 1st ed. It never happened in my revised edition experience where I usually threw some Toreador in otherwise the city wouldn't have enough "normal vampires"

                          I understand people can be put off by stuff like that. I'm just saying that maybe we're a bit harsh towards the developers' intentions (which we can only guess)

                          PMárk I feel bad for you. You get why your favourite clan was changed and yet you can't help it and dislike the change. I feel bad mostly because, as you said yourself, it's a development of the clan that makes sense. Especially in the context of the current "cultural civil war" of the western world. So yeah, affection to what we like can be a real pain-in-the
                          I understand Brujah are traditionally Cam and made sense within that structure as the "opposing party".
                          But I feel they can fancy themselves as rebels and stay contempt to be the "opposing party" only for so long.
                          Also it's not like the most numerous clan in the anarchs wasn't Brujah, or the most numerous antitribu wasn't the Brujah. Thinking about it... It's like always. Just part of the clan is Camarilla. Maybe 1/3?
                          Probably this is part of the more "in-the-face" approach too. Brujah never was a full-Cam clan, and they're saying it with bombs.
                          Brujah neonate: "Man, it's like it has always been. No seriously dude, it's like... really as it's always been. Only this time we blew up stuff. In your face."


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                          • #43
                            So what are the rules advancements made in V5? Did they learn from NWOD or Vampire Dark Age 20? V20 I feel should have been really delved into when considering the basics of how disciplines work. But what are the basic rules like in V5? And what are the Disciplines like?


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              So what are the rules advancements made in V5? Did they learn from NWOD or Vampire Dark Age 20? V20 I feel should have been really delved into when considering the basics of how disciplines work. But what are the basic rules like in V5? And what are the Disciplines like?
                              No one knows yet. And we probably won't until we get the full book.


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                              • #45
                                Ohh so they have been careful with the rules they release news about, interesting maybe there is hope. I know I wasn't pleased with what I heard about the Hunger rules, and blood dice.
                                Sounded like Vampires would be crippled in comparison to nonvampires due to constant hunger.


                                It is a time for great deeds!

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