Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

V5 new preview is out!!!

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Originally posted by MarkK View Post

    I wouldn't say any of it was treated with the same contextual emphasis, is my note. I'm also not quite so thirsty (ha ha! pun!) as I were in younger days to grit my teeth and bear what I find to be really off putting things as the tax I have to pay to get to use something I otherwise like, and that seems to be a relatively common feeling (in gamers both older and newer), which likely contributes to why you're seeing people have sharper reactions to this that you find confusing or new.

    But I honestly find it a positive development of people being less willing to have to feel subjected to whatever in the name of trying to find a way to enjoy something or other. And, as you say, V20, it further shied away from such things, more or less (but frankly still did horror just fine) in favour of somewhat more differently emphasized nuances. When I talk about the idea of throughlines, that itself was one of them, a treatment of darker atmosphere that went to that in your face well in less starkly emphasized, or at least different ways, and that treatment at the very least has come to a pretty sharp halt. That change itself is going to be jarring for any number of people, and not in a pleasant way.

    It's helped aggravate things that yes, ultimately the path here is playtest, then this stuff. It makes everything feel more emphasized.
    Ah, okay I understand!

    To be fair, I do have a vague feel that the monstrous parts were there in prior editions, just blended into the writing and artworks (well, except real bad, Black Dog like stuff), while I do have a vague feeling of them being put more into the display in V5, but I have to see the final book to decide.

    Also, don't get me wrong, I acknowledge your tonal preferences and sensibilities. We are different, you preferred the V20-like, more subtle, less agressive, less in-your-face style. I, on the other hand, while liked the V20 books, they were well written and all, but always felt that missing and I prefer somewhat the Revised era both in aesthetics and writing style. Yes, it's more punkish, more in-character, less detached and the artworks are more stark, more stylized and black and white. I preferred it that way, I liked '80s and '90s dark comics and movies too. So, that on itself doesn't bother me, but we'll see if they're taking it too far, to the point of feeling forced even to me.


    If nothing worked, then let's think!

    Comment


    • #92
      Good summary btw.

      The people who are very happy about it wanted this specific kind of game, to begin with, they likely have a similar enough disposition toward Vampire and how it should be played as the developers. That's fine, but a lot of the fans don't have the same preferences. Until now, VtM could sustain very different kind of stories and playstyles, while with these rules, not so much.


      If nothing worked, then let's think!

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        No. It might have been on the lighter side of mainstream when it was first released, but it's never been rules-light or narrative. Having a rules medium bordering on heavy game that's written so poorly people ignore enough of the rules what they end up using might count as rules-light doesn't mean you have a rules-light game. It means you have a poorly designed game.
        I don't mean narrative in the sense of Fate or PbtA, I mean narrative in the "story first, rules second approach". The storyteller system always relied on a strong ST fiat, and stressed that rules should take a backseat to the story. The preview shows that this advice clearly hasn't changed. But the designers address the narrative fiats by also suggesting more concrete values to things.

        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        It's an inferior copy of Requiem's Touchstone systems from what we've seen. Requiem makes Touchstones a carrot more than a stick (having them is a bonus, not a requirement), and isn't limited to living humans (so elders can start using things like institutions as Touchstones as everyone they knew in life is long dead and all).
        Actually, I think it is superior to Requiem's approach. Humanity was a giant stick in Masquerade. Requiem introduced touchstones but really made them into something that is desireable yet cumbersome to actually portray in the game. Now, with each touchstone representing a conviction of the character, the touchstone immediately gains a personality and something to stand for. In Requiem touchstones (up to 6 per character) quickly ended up as a forgotten nuissance, except when important to regain Willpower or avoiding degeneration.

        I think it could easily be house-ruled to allow non-human touchstones, if it really bothers someone too much.

        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        That's kinda weird since they released two V5 playtests on the Internet, and IME we 'old guard' types have plenty of people that have been consciously hacking, tweaking, and trying new things out with the WoD for 25+ years. And really.... the people making V5 are "old guard" anyway (Hite's been working on games since before I was born)... so if the old guard doesn't have any new ideas, where are they getting them from?
        I think there is a difference between being a player of a game or a game designer. Hite gets paid to have fresh ideas, to know rules systems, and look beyond the storyteller system. In my experience regular players tried to "improve" the game by staying in the metrics put forth by the storyteller game. Hite isn't an old WoD Designer. He brings a fresh perspective of someone who has done lots of different design work in his life.

        Usually long time fans have very specific ideas about what the game should do, and are locked in the design that has been put forth last century. To make the game fresh again, you need a different perspective on the one hand, but also honor the legacy of the game. The last part is done by sticking to the established metaplot. This is no reboot, it's a continuation using fresh ideas and concepts adjusted to the 21st century. Because honestly, the last new iteration of the game is from 20 years ago. And even that was only a gradual shift from first to revised (kind of like basic D&D shifted to AD&D 2nd Edition). Now, VtM gets the equivalent of D&D 3rd Edition.

        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        Half-assing it by starting in the open and then closing it later is pretty much the worst of both worlds.
        Yes, here I agree. That wasn't handled ideally. But a beta testing in mid-May wouldn't jhave changed anything for the system anyway. The book apparently had to go to printer by mid-June. You don't change anything major on such a short notice. When you do, you end up with known issues like examples not matching the rules, rules in two different places being contradictory. We've all seen this over the years in many different systems.

        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        I think this puts far too much stress on GenCon in a digital age. Big releases at conventions aren't what really sells a game-line even if they might sell a core book.
        The point of GenCon is marketing and being visible with the hot new stuff, and more importantly revenue. Every book sold directly from the publisher to the customer increases profits over selling through the traditional channels. And with the quantities selling at GenCon this amounts to a bigger sum of money.

        Also, there are still lots of people who are't getting their RPG books and news primarily from the net. Vampire: The Masquerade is moving back to being available on the bookshelf and in stores, and not only over the internet. Being at GenCon sends a strong signal that way.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by PMárk View Post
          Don't say me more open communication about their ideas would have been that impossible and some more advertising and more playstest and surveys would have been that hard. I don't buy it.
          I am not sure, if you are aware on just how small rpg business are apart from Paizo? WotC is in a different position. Putting out surveys like D&D Next did is a major effort. First in creating meaningful surveys (a whole science unto itself), then in going through the answers and consolidating them. Especially when you work with open questions.Then, you also have to spend time on assembling the playtest material, proof-reading and layout. Both, the pre-alpha and alpha have been exemplary in this regard compared with playtest stuff other companies put out. It's not hard to do, but time consuming.

          Also, playtests run the risk of listening to the loudest voice. This topic is a lesson on that: a few very vocal people dominating (pun intended) the discussion.

          Originally posted by PMárk View Post
          Yeah, the "old guard" wants the game to resemble the game they loved and kept playing, even when it was out of print. How dare they.
          Like it could be nothing else, but the choice between keeping everything the same, or burning it down in the name of new. Like there couldn't be a middle ground.
          Blah-blah, they wanted to make the game according to their own vision and how they prefer to play the game (and what kind of games) and the "old" fans could suck it or go where they want, that was it.
          If the preview did show one thing it's that they are not burning everything down, but are aiming at a middle ground. We still have the metaplot, seven core clans, the same discipline spread, humanity is a thing, etc

          I can understand that some players will be disappointed as they didn't get an opportunity to chime in on development or have their opinion heard by the developers. But did you actually contact White Wolf in the past 12 months? Offer your opinion? Offer to playtest? Offer to give feedback? If you care so much about a game, then by all means try to get noticed. Yes, I also understand that we have come to expected to be courted as customers, but I know a lot of game companies that are willing to listen if contacted. Or who choose only to do closed alphas and betas, thus selecting who they are listening to.

          Also, remember that we haven't seen the final game in its entirety. Maybe there are optional rules in there for people wanting a different game. At least at one convention they were talking about using a mechanic like in Nights Black Agents, where you can set rules switches according to the exact genre you want to emulate. I am still confident in the design, and will reserve final judgement until having read the complete book.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post
            I mean narrative in the "story first, rules second approach".
            Which isn't actually a narrative game in any sense of the words. Rules are more than mechanics and numbers. And when the sum total of this is "ignore the system if you like different results for the story," means you don't have a narrative system. Relying on ST fiat to create narrative is a failure at being a narrative game.

            If I told you I have this action RPG that's all about combat, but when you read it combat has almost no rules and relies almost completely on GM fiat while it has a whole dedicate system to how interpersonal relationships define your character and dictate what they can and can't do more than abstracting skill in a traditional sense, you wouldn't actually say, "this is a combat RPG!" You'd wonder why I'm trying to sell drama focused knock off of Cortex+ as an action/combat RPG.

            Actually, I think it is superior to Requiem's approach. Humanity was a giant stick in Masquerade. Requiem introduced touchstones but really made them into something that is desireable yet cumbersome to actually portray in the game. Now, with each touchstone representing a conviction of the character, the touchstone immediately gains a personality and something to stand for. In Requiem touchstones (up to 6 per character) quickly ended up as a forgotten nuissance, except when important to regain Willpower or avoiding degeneration.
            This is a very specious take.

            You're basically saying that attaching a Touchstone to a specific ethical stance makes them better as NPCs to include in the game. Besides the very forced nature of each of your Convictions requiring a Touchstone ("After killing someone in a hungry frenzy, I have looked after their child to remind myself to value human life. Oh, a the child grew up and then died in a car accident, now I don't care about human life any more."), all this does is reduce flexibility. Nothing in the previews for V5 indicate that Touchstones are going to be less prone to being forgotten about than Requiem by people that don't want to engage with that aspect of the game... if anything the opposite. There's no incentive to interact with and involve V5 Touchstones, there's no reward for bringing them into the story like Requiem rewarding you WP for it, and losing them is far more damaging to your character. With what we know so far... why would anyone playing V5 want their Touchstones to be anything other than a name on a sheet than never comes into play?

            I think there is a difference between being a player of a game or a game designer.
            Great. I'm both. Lots of people are both.

            Hite gets paid to have fresh ideas, to know rules systems, and look beyond the storyteller system.
            He gets paid to make the game WW wants him to make. As far as I can tell, a lot of the major changes to the ST system were decided on before Hite came on board, and he's been paid more to polish that up than actually add fresh ideas... especially since I haven't actually seen any fresh ideas from V5 (even if they're new things for the ST family of games).

            You're also doing a lot of appeal to authority here. Someone being a professional game designer doesn't mean they've got fresh ideas, and us "mere fans" don't have any.

            IME, it's not who gets paid, or whatever. It's who tries out a lot of different things. People that have just been playing ST games since 1991 might not come up with many fresh takes. People might be big fans of the ST games, but have played dozens of other games? They're the ones that tend to come up with more fresh ideas.

            Of course the RPG world is very small, and pretty much all the professional designers started as "regular players" until they decided to try to get paid. And, speaking from personal experience, like most creative efforts, lots of people that try to go pro crash and burn instead.

            Hite isn't an old WoD Designer.
            Well, except for the work he did for the original run of the WoD and all. The majority of the team WW brought together after the pre-alpha have experience with working on WoD books. We didn't end up with a team of people dominated by outsiders that didn't have preconceptions about the game. That was, as far as I can tell, part of the point. They brought on a bunch of people because they had experience with the ST games to assure people that they understood the game being made; not any of dozens of designers that could use a chance on a major product that don't come from a WoD background.

            The point of GenCon is marketing and being visible with the hot new stuff, and more importantly revenue. Every book sold directly from the publisher to the customer increases profits over selling through the traditional channels. And with the quantities selling at GenCon this amounts to a bigger sum of money.
            GenCon simply isn't that important any more. Physical conventions only attract a tiny fraction of audiences. Being at GenCon is important for marketing, but releasing a book at GenCon? Not really. There's very little to suggest that if WW hadn't publicly set a deadline to release at GenCon, did an actual beta test at PDXCon that was opened to the Internet over the rest of spring, had a rock solid quickstart play packet for GenCon after a few months of summer, and then did the final release later, that they'd perform worse in sales.

            Also, there are still lots of people who are't getting their RPG books and news primarily from the net.
            People keep saying this... but every year it seems more and more dubious. Who the hell has the disposable income to buy higher end RPG books, and doesn't go online to look up stuff about the hobby? They're not following their favorite companies/people on social media? They haven't found Discord channels to talk to people in, or Twitch streams to watch how other people play, or podcasts to follow? All of these things seem to be regularly growing in use for RPGs.... but somehow there's some massive group of people that don't use the Internet to find out about stuff (or rely on someone who uses the Internet to find out for them)?

            I don't buy that at all. There are forums where great-grandmothers trade knitting patterns, but RPGs are some strange whole where the fans forget the Internet exists.

            Vampire: The Masquerade is moving back to being available on the bookshelf and in stores, and not only over the internet. Being at GenCon sends a strong signal that way.
            Onyx Path is getting books back on the bookshelves and in stores.. and didn't have to have a big release at GenCon for it. OP is at GenCon to keep the hype up and all that, but it doesn't seem like releasing at GenCon specifically is what makes or breaks things.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by PMárk View Post
              I wanted to answer this to Ravnos too, but hey, since I'm already writing: yeah, it's a hard pill to swallow. I knew it'll be coming and I know the Anarch book will be the same. I get that it's fitting in this day and age and that they're trying to do the same W did back then, tying the game to real-world phenomenon. It's just, the things they're tying it with and doubling down on are not my favorite things anyway and I wouldn't made it this one sided. To be perfectly blunt: Brujah in political groups are appropriate (just read the rev. clanbook), they were even backing the Soviets! But making them revolving around one specific kind of ideology and practically making a political statement, I'm not a fan of that, I'd have preferred a more even handling, a step back and more examining them as the clan, which is, indeed, entvined in mortal politics and ideologies, academia and extremist groups and subcultures, musical and otherwise and all that. Not "the proglib activist clan", for fuck's sake.

              Okay, sorry, I'm making myself angry. Okay, the corebook writeup was stereotypical even in the former editions (but I liked punk-rocker rebellious Brujah a lot more, to be honest) and there's hope they'll add nuance in supplements, but somehow, based on the overall impression, I'm doubting it.

              But I know the majority here will disagree, these are the OPP forums, after all, the audience here will most likely like this take on the clan. I still don't and most of my acquaintances don't either.
              Personal taste I suppose. I'm honestly a bit tired that everything must be nuanced in some way. I'm starting to like a more visceral feel, this in-the-face approach. I think it is good for a corebook. It gives new players a stereotypical but strong impression, not too different from the old book.
              In clanbooks and such they'll have the chance to add all the optional nuance that fans can like.


              101 simple plot ideas for VtM

              "Ever since the Followers of Set rebranded themselves as The Ministry, I can barely keep a straight face around them." - Ramona #vamily

              Comment


              • #97
                As someone who has played V:tM since the mid 90s I can't say I've ever been more disappointed than when in one sentence Neo-Nazis were put forward as a viable concept for a PC. It reeks of trying to be edgy in order to reinforce the "you're not playing a hero" aspect, while ignoring the setting in which petty human concerns don't matter in the face of Vampiric ones, which are far more important to the actual game.

                As someone who plays in large scale games, having things like this upfront in the intro to the Clan for players is not a good thing. The only nazis in previous additions were obvious, and often ridiculous villains that, at worst, never added anything to the game. This is leagues away from the lauded nuance of something like Charnel Houses of Europe: The Shoah, and that's a shame.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  Which isn't actually a narrative game in any sense of the words. Rules are more than mechanics and numbers. And when the sum total of this is "ignore the system if you like different results for the story," means you don't have a narrative system. Relying on ST fiat to create narrative is a failure at being a narrative game.
                  Those definitions are nice, but besides the point. The argument by an other poster was that the storyteller system always had medium to heavy rules mechanic. I pointed out that the system was rules-light, because the mechanics were not working or at least ambiguously worded. Thus replaced by ST fiat. Therefore, V5 is not really a deviation from earlier iterations, but rather acknowledges that the game should be more focused on storyteller fiat.

                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  With what we know so far... why would anyone playing V5 want their Touchstones to be anything other than a name on a sheet than never comes into play?
                  Emphasis mine. That's exactly it. People making vast assumptions based on 27pages slice from a 400-page book. That's a bit more than 5% of the content. It's like ordering a five course menu, and after having the first course deciding to get up and leave the restaurant, because the first bite wasn't quite to taste.

                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  He gets paid to make the game WW wants him to make. As far as I can tell, a lot of the major changes to the ST system were decided on before Hite came on board, and he's been paid more to polish that up than actually add fresh ideas... especially since I haven't actually seen any fresh ideas from V5 (even if they're new things for the ST family of games).
                  Honestly, I leave fresh ideas (in the sense of being complete innovations) to Indie games. Mainstream games usually take Indie ideas and polish them, thus making them accessible for the masses. Again, quibbling with words: when I mean "fresh ideas", I mean ideas new to storyteller games. They don't necessarily have to be completely innovative

                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  Of course the RPG world is very small, and pretty much all the professional designers started as "regular players" until they decided to try to get paid. And, speaking from personal experience, like most creative efforts, lots of people that try to go pro crash and burn instead.
                  Because going pro requires a bit more than being creative? It requires a sound understand of the RPG business and business practices. Apparently Hite manages to successfully make a living from his work.

                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  Well, except for the work he did for the original run of the WoD and all. The majority of the team WW brought together after the pre-alpha have experience with working on WoD books. We didn't end up with a team of people dominated by outsiders that didn't have preconceptions about the game. That was, as far as I can tell, part of the point. They brought on a bunch of people because they had experience with the ST games to assure people that they understood the game being made; not any of dozens of designers that could use a chance on a major product that don't come from a WoD background.
                  Did those "dozens of designers that could use a chancde on a major product" apply for a job? Did they offer their services? If not, how should White Wolf know about them? You can always send in an application or proposal to a company. If you do it well enough, they might even be inclined to listen. You usually get things by asking for them, not by waiting for them to be handed out.

                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  GenCon simply isn't that important any more. Physical conventions only attract a tiny fraction of audiences. Being at GenCon is important for marketing, but releasing a book at GenCon? Not really.
                  That's an assertion not supported in any way by the way the big companies operate. GenCon is clearly the place and time to get out major new products. This year alone, Cubicle 7 is aiming to release the new Warhammer Fantasy Role.Play there, Ulisses North America is relaesing Wrath & Glory (the new WH40K RPG), Monte Cook Games has Numenera 2 ready, and Paizo will be publishing the Pathfinder 2nd edition Beta test there. GenCon is the marketing event in the RPG industry. Saying otherwise, is simply ignoring facts. If GenCon wouldn't matter, then the companies wouldn't care about it.

                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  There's very little to suggest that if WW hadn't publicly set a deadline to release at GenCon, did an actual beta test at PDXCon that was opened to the Internet over the rest of spring, had a rock solid quickstart play packet for GenCon after a few months of summer, and then did the final release later, that they'd perform worse in sales.
                  GenCon is media attention, an immediate access to enthustiastic buyers, and units sold at GenCon directly by the publisher have a larger profit margin (no immediaries to be paid).

                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  People keep saying this... but every year it seems more and more dubious. Who the hell has the disposable income to buy higher end RPG books, and doesn't go online to look up stuff about the hobby? They're not following their favorite companies/people on social media? They haven't found Discord channels to talk to people in, or Twitch streams to watch how other people play, or podcasts to follow? All of these things seem to be regularly growing in use for RPGs.... but somehow there's some massive group of people that don't use the Internet to find out about stuff (or rely on someone who uses the Internet to find out for them)?
                  I am pretty active in several RPG communities on the net. And I think the number of people actually engaging online is a fraction of the available player base. Usually gamemasters are the most active online participants. But there are at least 3-5 other people at an average role-playing table who don't care as much about the game. And the World of Darkness has a history of attracting casual gamers. By the way, exactly because it is pervceived as a rules-light system.

                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  I don't buy that at all. There are forums where great-grandmothers trade knitting patterns, but RPGs are some strange whole where the fans forget the Internet exists.
                  Over here, back in Europe, people are still a lot more likely to sit down and read a physical book than to purchase ebooks. The growth of the sector is there, but not nearly close to North America. White Wolf said they wanted to get back to more traditional publishing models with actual books in the shelves..[/QUOTE]

                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  Onyx Path is getting books back on the bookshelves and in stores.. and didn't have to have a big release at GenCon for it. OP is at GenCon to keep the hype up and all that, but it doesn't seem like releasing at GenCon specifically is what makes or breaks things.
                  Onyx Path has so far opted for a vastly different publication model than say WotC, Paizo, Cubicle 7. Those companies don't do Kickstarters for their flagship products. Onyx Path is heavily relying on them. That's a completely different model, I would dare say even a different audience.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post
                    Those definitions are nice, but besides the point.
                    No, they're pretty much exactly the point and you just seem desperate to not admit you're wrong.

                    I pointed out that the system was rules-light, because the mechanics were not working or at least ambiguously worded. Thus replaced by ST fiat.
                    Which, as I countered, bullshit. You can't claim GURPS and Monsterhearts are the same style of game if you just ignore enough of GURPS. The fact that a lot of people stripped the ST down to it's lightest incarnation with house rules doesn't prove that the books themselves are rules-light. They weren't even that rules-light at the time (just rules-light compared to the few other RPGs to have large scale recognition).

                    Also... I've been playing the WoD games for a long time and they - despite their flaws - are functional as written at least after 2e. The idea that there isn't a giant heavy crunchy combat system that nobody uses is just false. I've seen it used as close to as written as possible for decades.

                    Therefore, V5 is not really a deviation from earlier iterations, but rather acknowledges that the game should be more focused on storyteller fiat.
                    Which still isn't actually true. It is a deviation from earlier iterations by dropping in more ST fiat instead of trying to have systems that aren't fiat based even if popularly fiated anyway.

                    The preview has a few examples of explicit fiat in places that were not fiat reliant before (Bane Severity for example).

                    We can quibble over how much of a deviation it is, but as you point out yourself, this is getting into things not seen in total context.

                    People making vast assumptions based on 27pages slice from a 400-page book.
                    This applies to you as well with quite a number of your assertions about game elements.

                    Because going pro requires a bit more than being creative? It requires a sound understand of the RPG business and business practices.
                    And luck. For example my first submitted game system is stuck in forever limbo because the person who owns the IP and thus owns the work for hire, decided to change directions and use an existing system instead. He was actually nice enough to revert ownership, but since it was a group project despite my lead, doing anything with it would take getting three out of four people to all agree on it... and we all moved on anyway. Since it never got published, I never got any exposure (well, that's note entirely true, but not enough with the right people at the right time), etc. I decided to focus on a career that would do me better financially a few years later.

                    Apparently Hite manages to successfully make a living from his work.
                    Sure, wasn't arguing otherwise. Just arguing that Hite isn't some magical entity of fresh ideas that the fans cold never come up with.

                    Did those "dozens of designers that could use a chancde on a major product" apply for a job?
                    As far as I'm aware, WW didn't openly request submissions.

                    If not, how should White Wolf know about them?
                    It's a sated goal of the company to find and recruit new and more diverse voices into their games... which means being a bit more proactive about this than rely on cold submissions to a company that doesn't have a submission policy publicly stated. And having a "Submission Guidelines" style link on their website would is like, the lowest bar here.

                    And all of this is a nice big distraction for the point I was making. They selected a team that features a number of people with history with the IP. They made a big deal about their histories with the IP. It was clearly a purposeful move.

                    That's an assertion not supported in any way by the way the big companies operate.
                    Or, rather, companies that have strong links to non-RPG products like card games, board-games, miniatures, etc, where their distribution model is inherently different.

                    ...Monte Cook Games has Numenera 2 ready,...
                    Because it was behind schedule. It was supposed to be out already. So clearly not Monte's big concern here.

                    ...and Paizo will be publishing the Pathfinder 2nd edition Beta test there.
                    Wait... you mean that thing I said WW should have done with V5 instead of rushing to get the final out for it instead?

                    GenCon is the marketing event in the RPG industry. Saying otherwise, is simply ignoring facts. If GenCon wouldn't matter, then the companies wouldn't care about it.
                    Great, so we agree on that. What I'm saying is that rushing to publish a book just for GenCon isn't actually the biggest deal. Being there and having something to hype is. Playtests, games you published earlier in the year run by the creators,etc. are all part of that marketing too.

                    ...and units sold at GenCon directly by the publisher have a larger profit margin (no immediaries to be paid).
                    No more than units sold through any other form of direct sales... WW is at plenty of conventions to sell books at a slightly better profit margin.

                    And I think the number of people actually engaging online is a fraction of the available player base.
                    So, we're shifting the goal post from "get news" to actively engage.

                    But there are at least 3-5 other people at an average role-playing table who don't care as much about the game.
                    That was true before the Internet took off too. The active types stay in the loop, and news filters word of mouth to their groups that don't follow the industry news.

                    And the World of Darkness has a history of attracting casual gamers.
                    Not really? It has a history of attracting audiences that previous games didn't even try to capture. It was never aimed at casual play, and the rather large LARP contingent is a great example of it not being casual focused.

                    Over here, back in Europe, people are still a lot more likely to sit down and read a physical book than to purchase ebooks. The growth of the sector is there, but not nearly close to North America. White Wolf said they wanted to get back to more traditional publishing models with actual books in the shelves..
                    Which has nothing to do with people learning about stuff online and following RPG news on the Internet.

                    Onyx Path has so far opted for a vastly different publication model than say WotC, Paizo, Cubicle 7. Those companies don't do Kickstarters for their flagship products. Onyx Path is heavily relying on them. That's a completely different model, I would dare say even a different audience.
                    And? My whole point is that there isn't some magical formula of, "get a book out at GenCon = success." and there are other models that are proving successful without relying on the old way of being hyper focused on conventions release dates.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      The preview has a few examples of explicit fiat in places that were not fiat reliant before (Bane Severity for example).
                      The whole game system was fiat reliant before. If the top rule is the "Golden Rule" that storyteller fiat and good story trump any rules, then you basically hang the whole game system on that rule. The newest iteration at least calls out specific places and even suggest how to handle it different, if you want more crunch.

                      I am not commenting anymore on your other assertions and assumptions, because clearly we both have our very different view points and we are both not willing to actually change our minds. I, for one, eagerly await the release of the complete game and it's seems as if it is shaping up to be exactly the game I want. So I am going to be a happy customer. If you don't want to play the game, then don't. But at this point complaining about the process is not going to accomplish anything. The road is set and changes won't be forthcomming.

                      Comment


                      • Because the "Golden Rule" or "Rule 0" has been bandied about as a defense, I took a look at V20's writing on it, page 245 of the core book. I won't quote the whole thing, but I will the most stressed sentence in the entire paragraph: "The rules are what you make of them." It goes on to describe the ways you can use the system, from a nearly diceless social game to something that amounts to a tactical wargame, and says this: "if the rules in this book interfere with your enjoyment of the game, change them."

                        This doesn't sound rules light by any stretch of the imagination, nor like storyteller fiat is the way to go. It mandates that a storyteller should make the decisions about how (s)he is going to run the chronicle and then not break those rules without a very good reason. In fact, one could say this is rules heavier, because it allows for said adjustments.


                        "At the risk of sounding like a murder hobo"

                        Attributed to Nyrufa.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Inertial Frame View Post
                          Because the "Golden Rule" or "Rule 0" has been bandied about as a defense, I took a look at V20's writing on it, page 245 of the core book. I won't quote the whole thing, but I will the most stressed sentence in the entire paragraph: "The rules are what you make of them." It goes on to describe the ways you can use the system, from a nearly diceless social game to something that amounts to a tactical wargame, and says this: "if the rules in this book interfere with your enjoyment of the game, change them."

                          This doesn't sound rules light by any stretch of the imagination, nor like storyteller fiat is the way to go. It mandates that a storyteller should make the decisions about how (s)he is going to run the chronicle and then not break those rules without a very good reason. In fact, one could say this is rules heavier, because it allows for said adjustments.
                          Seconded and thirded.


                          “Nobody is purely good or purely evil. Most of us are in-between. There are moths that explore the day and butterflies that play at night.”
                          - Suzy Kassem, Rise Up and Salute The Sun
                          (She/Her)

                          Comment


                          • I just finished reading through the preview.

                            I had quite a positive reaction to some things. Loresheets, for instance. They're an excellent way of expanding the options available to players by exploiting the richness and depth of the setting. Convictions, ditto. The old Humanity system was overly rigid, not reflecting the complex and nuanced ideas about right and wrong which exist in reality. Again, this expands player choices. And unlike some here, I liked the clan write-ups. If you compare them to the splat write-ups in earlier editions, they feel like a more diverse take on the clans to me. The Disciplines... while, they're a change, which always takes some getting used to, but Celerity as presently rewritten is certainly more varied and interesting than just "I can do stuff really, really fast".

                            But.

                            This is the Storyteller system. The clue is in the name. The rule set ought to be a low-maintenance, lightweight framework to help people tell stories - a wide range of stories. Convictions, Compulsions, Stains, Touchstones, Banes... maybe I'll feel differently when I read the full book, but right now it feels as if the people who wrote these rules never met a bell or a whistle that they didn't like.

                            And some of the added layers of complexity just don't make sense. Every Conviction has to have an associated Touchstone? And the Touchstone has to be a living human being? Really, guys? I can't have "I believe in democracy" as a Conviction unless I have a Touchstone who's a registered Democrat? I can't have "First, do no harm" as a Conviction unless I have a Touchstone who's a doctor? I can't believe in socialism unless I sing "Oh, Jeremy Corbyn" at regular intervals? Beliefs and convictions are shaped by peoples' life stories and experiences. It's a complex process which can seldom be traced to a single author or inspiration, and even if it is, that author/inspiration doesn't have to be alive. Saying that you can't believe in a principle unless you fixate on someone who embodies it for you is a ludicrous piece of railroading that dramatically limits your character creation choices. And if your belief in the principle is reliant on the object of your fixation, to what extent do you truly believe in the principle, per se, anyway? No, no, no. It's effectively turning all vampires into weird stalker/cultist archetypes.

                            I suspect that the fanbase is going to houserule the straitjacket into shreds and WW will eventually get rid of it and find a way to make it optional. It looks as if there will be a lot of good stuff in the new edition, enough that I don't regret my decision to go with the 3-book slipcase and am genuinely looking forward to seeing the full book. But I can't ever see myself running a game using it without doing some major surgery on the rules.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Inertial Frame View Post
                              It mandates that a storyteller should make the decisions about how (s)he is going to run the chronicle and then not break those rules without a very good reason.
                              Sigh... so rule 0 asks you for rulings (or even whole cloth house rules). ST fiat (at least in my opinion) doesn't mean "random decision", but consistent decisions according to what feels right to the ST overall. Same as in any other game out there, where not every contigency is covered by the rules.

                              Originally posted by Inertial Frame View Post
                              In fact, one could say this is rules heavier, because it allows for said adjustments.
                              So, if a game allows for rulings and decisions not based on the rulesbook, it is rules-heavy? It might be a game that is rulings-heavy and that requires informed decisions by the ST, but it's not by any stretch of the word as complicated and complex as GURPS, Rolemaster, Pathfider, D&D 3rd edition - games that are truly rules-heavy. The storyteller system has few really few rules in the book as oppossed to those games. What you choose to make out of them at your own table is a completely different matter. So, yes, if the ST prefers they can write hundreds of pages codifying their rulings into house-rules, but that's not a feature of the corebook.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post
                                So, if a game allows for rulings and decisions not based on the rulesbook, it is rules-heavy? It might be a game that is rulings-heavy and that requires informed decisions by the ST, but it's not by any stretch of the word as complicated and complex as GURPS, Rolemaster, Pathfider, D&D 3rd edition - games that are truly rules-heavy. The storyteller system has few really few rules in the book as oppossed to those games. What you choose to make out of them at your own table is a completely different matter. So, yes, if the ST prefers they can write hundreds of pages codifying their rulings into house-rules, but that's not a feature of the corebook.
                                A) It's certainly not rules light, as you have consistently stated. After all, they have rules there with which to run everything.
                                B) By your definition, no game is rules-heavy, because there are always going to be cases in every game that require rulings or decisions not based on the book. No one can possibly foresee every option a player, or a group thereof, will do, and sometimes that can go off the rails.
                                C) There are still base rules there to use. And let's just think about how Vampire's combat system, Potence, and Celerity all interrelate. It's on the extreme end of rules heavy and fiddly, as written.
                                D) It says you CAN go rules light. It does not say you MUST go rules light. The very options presented in the V20 core book go from nearly diceless to tactical wargaming.
                                E) As a long-time player of GURPS, D&D, and Storyteller system, they all really have about the same amount of rules. Of the three, I'd say Second Edition AD&D and earlier were, core book for core book, far more rules light and DM fiat.
                                F) The Storyteller system might be a bit lighter in the Abilities/Skills/Proficiency system, because it falls under a single rule of "Take the relevant Attribute and the relevant Ability, make a dice pool from those, the storyteller gives a difficulty. Every die that is that number or above is a success."
                                G) If one has to do what you state in your last sentence, how did the designers of the game get paid for the job? That reeks of bad design and development, and if it's not a feature, it must be a bug.
                                H) I don't know of any game that has ever been run straight from the book without some modification to the liking of the person running it. It may be something minor, but every game I've played in or run has been ever so slightly changed, heavily modified, or somewhere in between. V5 is going to be no different, and my bet is on, as JezMiller said, "surgery on the rules" occurring. Most of the people I know running or playing are not going to want to deal with the Touchstone rules as written, for example.
                                I) An interesting thing I've noticed while writing this... More Storyteller fiat is going into a lot of it, but a ton of hard, new mechanics are governing mortal interaction and morality. Is this really where they needed to focus the mechanical changes?

                                Suffice to say, based on what I currently know, I won't be playing or running V5 without a lot of modification. I think the Humanity/Path system, for all its flaws, is better until I see a way Convictions and Touchstones do not stifle character creation. I can tell you that most characters I've created could not work under the new system up to and including Social primary, mortal influencing Kindred.

                                Also, an aside about how this is supposed to work that was kind of brought up before. Lore of the Clans talks about how the Ventrue fledge their new childer. Under the new system, what, they get to make a phone call early in the evening one a week to Mom? And when the new Ventrue childe never comes home after like 30 years of being gone and just making that phone call once a week, can they still say Mom's a Touchstone? Yep, a question for the full book, but seriously, something they should have seen coming given the information that's been out there for years.


                                "At the risk of sounding like a murder hobo"

                                Attributed to Nyrufa.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X