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  • What I love about Vampire is its versatility. You can hunt down arcane texts in forgotten tombs, fight your foes with katanas, pose at Elysium, steal the blood of ancient gods, plot your slow rise to power, enslave humans for your own pleasure, search for vampire nirvana, get played by elders, train a fledgling, sulk about how angsty you are, play with corpses, hunt internalists . . . The list goes on.

    V5 looks like I'll be hungry, tending to humans and focussing on my angst for most of the time. I know which game seems more appealing to me and to new players.

    By the way, I wanted to add: the layout for the new edition looks like a magazine to me. I suggest the new nickname: Vogue: The Monstering. Especially with that damned Toreador spread.
    Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 07-02-2018, 05:03 AM.

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    • Yeah, I've always found the strength of Vampire: The Masquerade, not necessarily in its focus on roleplaying, but on its flexibility. You could play any kind of vampire you wanted, drawing from any inspirational material you wanted. Bram Stoker, Ann Rice, Universal and Hammer horror, Necroscope, Lost Boys, Blade, etc. There were a few inherent mechanics that dictated common elements, sure, but they were loose enough to provide plenty of wiggle room, both from a plot and character standpoint. You could run any kind of vampire you wanted, in any kind of vampire campaign you wanted.

      V5 increasingly seems like the sentiment now is "You must play this specific kind of vampire game, with these specific kinds of vampires. We're putting game mechanics in so you CAN'T do anything else, because this is what we think vampire games should be."

      Objecting to that doesn't make fans wrong or incapable of change. It makes us justly concerned that the game whose name is "Vampire" can no longer be the one stop shop for vampire games that we liked so much. It's the same reason why Mage: The Ascension fans got split over the whole Avatar Storm business back in Revised; it didn't matter how good street level magic was, players wanted the option of also taking their mages into magical outer space, and they were shamed by the writers for wanting that.

      If New White Wolf is dead set on this course of action, that's on them. But they'll have to deal with the consequences of alienating scores of their existing fans.

      If you like what V5 is turning out to be, cool. Enjoy the new game. I wish you nothing but contentment. If you don't like where V5 is headed, though, I encourage you to not buy a product you'll be unhappy with. Your money could be better spent on stuff you DO enjoy or will find satisfaction with. I especially encourage people NOT to buy V5 out of some desire to support White Wolf, in the hopes they'll create something you DO like. That is counterproductive to your goals. If V5 is successful, White Wolf will just continue creating more games like V5, because it's what makes them money.

      You vote with your wallet; nothing else speaks louder to a company than sales figures. If White Wolf sees they aren't successful with V5, they'll reconsider where they want VtM to go. THAT is how you effect the change you want to see, not by enabling White Wolf to continue on a course you don't like.


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      • Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
        What I love about Vampire is its versatility. You can hunt down arcane texts in forgotten tombs, fight your foes with katanas, pose at Elysium, steal the blood of ancient gods, plot your slow rise to power, enslave humans for your own pleasure, search for vampire nirvana, get played by elders, train a fledgling, sulk about how angsty you are, play with corpses, hunt internalists . . . The list goes on.

        Ah,but you see,all of that will be possible. This is just the first of the three books that will be released this year,as you say right now it's all about dealing with your hunger and your relationship with yourself and the mortals,but don't forget,there's still the Anarch VS Camarilla conflict in the Corebook,you can do high stakes politics or fight to create a better society and sulk about how agnsty you are,with only with the corebook. Who knows what the Camarilla and Anarch sourcebook will bring. I do realize there'll probably be a lack of Infernalism,but that should be fixed when the Sabbat go back from their Crusade.
        And don't forget,there is a option to steal the blood of ancient gods on the last page of the preview,not only of Zapathasura,Enosch it's out and about!
        Last edited by Nicolas Milioni; 06-30-2018, 02:53 PM.

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        • Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
          Yeah, I've always found the strength of Vampire: The Masquerade, not necessarily in its focus on roleplaying, but on its flexibility. You could play any kind of vampire you wanted, drawing from any inspirational material you wanted. Bram Stoker, Ann Rice, Universal and Hammer horror, Necroscope, Lost Boys, Blade, etc. There were a few inherent mechanics that dictated common elements, sure, but they were loose enough to provide plenty of wiggle room, both from a plot and character standpoint. You could run any kind of vampire you wanted, in any kind of vampire campaign you wanted.

          V5 increasingly seems like the sentiment now is "You must play this specific kind of vampire game, with these specific kinds of vampires. We're putting game mechanics in so you CAN'T do anything else, because this is what we think vampire games should be."

          Objecting to that doesn't make fans wrong or incapable of change. It makes us justly concerned that the game whose name is "Vampire" can no longer be the one stop shop for vampire games that we liked so much. It's the same reason why Mage: The Ascension fans got split over the whole Avatar Storm business back in Revised; it didn't matter how good street level magic was, players wanted the option of also taking their mages into magical outer space, and they were shamed by the writers for wanting that.

          If New White Wolf is dead set on this course of action, that's on them. But they'll have to deal with the consequences of alienating scores of their existing fans.

          If you like what V5 is turning out to be, cool. Enjoy the new game. I wish you nothing but contentment. If you don't like where V5 is headed, though, I encourage you to not buy a product you'll be unhappy with. Your money could be better spent on stuff you DO enjoy or will find satisfaction with. I especially encourage people NOT to buy V5 out of some desire to support White Wolf, in the hopes they'll create something you DO like. That is counterproductive to your goals. If V5 is successful, White Wolf will just continue creating more games like V5, because it's what makes them money.

          You vote with your wallet; nothing else speaks louder to a company than sales figures. If White Wolf sees they aren't successful with V5, they'll reconsider where they want VtM to go. THAT is how you effect the change you want to see, not by enabling White Wolf to continue on a course you don't like.
          Not really,the v5 team said that

          " Our plan for V5 also includes providing tools and techniques for adjusting the game to personal tastes. There will be techniques to deal with difficult subject matter and strong emotions. We’ll give you the means to focus your V5 chronicles on any aspect of Vampire: The Masquerade that you’ve ever enjoyed, from terrifyingly intimate scenes of very personal horror to the repulsive global power plays of the Camarilla Kindred. You’ll get expert guidance helping you to shine the spotlight on ripped-from-the-headlines realism or insidious parlor politics as you choose.
          If you prefer the bloody violence of a street-level drama set against the backdrop of vampire gang warfare and an Anarch Baron’s rise and fall, you can tell that story in V5. You can also join Beckett in his global quest to unravel hidden and forbidden Kindred secrets, or come face to face with the consequences of a modern intelligence community as instruments of government overreach while unraveling the horrifying intrigues of a Camarilla Prince. The V5 stories will scale downward, upward, and sideways as you decide."

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          • Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
            Not really,the v5 team said that

            " Our plan for V5 also includes providing tools and techniques for adjusting the game to personal tastes. There will be techniques to deal with difficult subject matter and strong emotions. We’ll give you the means to focus your V5 chronicles on any aspect of Vampire: The Masquerade that you’ve ever enjoyed, from terrifyingly intimate scenes of very personal horror to the repulsive global power plays of the Camarilla Kindred. You’ll get expert guidance helping you to shine the spotlight on ripped-from-the-headlines realism or insidious parlor politics as you choose.
            If you prefer the bloody violence of a street-level drama set against the backdrop of vampire gang warfare and an Anarch Baron’s rise and fall, you can tell that story in V5. You can also join Beckett in his global quest to unravel hidden and forbidden Kindred secrets, or come face to face with the consequences of a modern intelligence community as instruments of government overreach while unraveling the horrifying intrigues of a Camarilla Prince. The V5 stories will scale downward, upward, and sideways as you decide."
            And then they went ahead and instituted a bunch of baked in baseline rules that fly completely in the face of those promises, from the way Touchstones work, to multiple playtests at this point reinforcing things like the constant presence of Hunger dice on every roll. They made that statement after huge fan backlash from their initial stuff, and it increasingly looks like it was just a sop to make the complaints at the time stop. That statement is exactly why some people are really put off by this point. Like I said a bunch of posts ago, people kinda don't like it when they are promised they will be able to do a thing, then demonstrated that whoops no, that thing will in fact be made much harder to do.

            Anarch VS Camarilla conflict in the Corebook,you can do high stakes politics or fight to create a better society and sulk about how agnsty you are,with only with the corebook.
            After two playtests and at this point an actual look at the corebook, that currently looks actively like it is not the case, to the point of the rules reinforcing a much different focus.

            At some point "well we've only seen two playtests and 20 pages of the corebook" is really more "Yes, exactly, we've seen two playtests and 20 pages of the corebook". That's two playtests in a row of hunger being what it was, and now the Touchstone thing. If the game isn't reinforcing on its play style of, to borrow a line from a fellow posting above me*

            V5 looks like I'll be hungry, tending to humans and focussing on my angst for most of the time.
            It's certainly doing a very good job of making you think that will be the strongly reinforced play style. And if you like that playstyle, that's great, this is indeed the personal horror game you've been waiting for. If you liked other things? Well you're out of luck it would seem.

            *He puts it more dismissively than I would, mind you. There's certainly nothing wrong with a highly human scale, night to night level focused game, it's just, you know, people like doing other things too. The game has been going from "doesn't help do them" all the way to "actively discouraging".

            Of course there's also that even within that focus, the way touchstones work are limiting to the point of being surreal of what kind of personal narratives you can explore (ones of faith or ideology or the like going right out the window for how much resonance and meaning they can have)

            Who knows what the Camarilla and Anarch sourcebook will bring.
            There's also something really cynical and money grubbing about the entire affair if the strategy is indeed "buy this expensive 400 page corebook that will not really help you play the game you want to play but you need just to use it anyway, but hey! Maybe these next two expensive hardcovers will! Who knows! Buy them to find out! Ka-ching!"
            Last edited by MarkK; 06-30-2018, 03:42 PM.

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            • i reaally don

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              • Just to put something more directly as far as the "well who knows what is in the other 380 pages".

                Here's the problem.

                The thing previews are supposed to do, be they playtests or 20 page advance looks, are give you a glimpse that makes you interested, that makes you want to buy this game to indeed find out what it's going to be like. When those playtests and 20 page advance looks are instead structured in a way to present themselves as off puttingly as possible as far as some particular playstyles, interests, and dislikes of some of the previous fanbase eyeing this thing (everything from the playstyles it reinforces, to what seem like bad mechanical choices for clan flaws, to material some people just find far too extreme, or anything else anyone in this thread has found badly done), at that point it's pretty natural and reasonable that they'd feel driven off and uninterested in continuing on.

                The argument of "well you don't know, you should still buy it" is basically "it's not white wolf's fault you can't see past how terribly they promoted their game to your interests/tastes, it's your fault for having those interests/tastes."

                As an advertisement to people whose interests align with what the company wants to do, it's highly successful. But, here's the thing, all those people were going to buy this anyway, no matter what. As a promotion to people who are outside those interests, it has done, to this point, a very poor job. I am pretty confident that the crowd they are aligning this to are enthusiastic and sizable enough that it won't really hurt them for having done that, so you have to wonder if that's basically the idea.

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                • sorry,my first post got cut when i meant to say
                  but,how exactly do you feel the game doesn't work with high political stuff? The powers of manipulating minds are there,the politics are mentioned,the conflicts between sects are enhanced,what it missing?
                  There's a Second Inquisition if you want to fight vampire hunters. The game is called "A Game personal and political"" so there is politics. i'm really not seeing your point i'm sorry

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                  • MarkK Exactly.

                    That quote from White Wolf, taken in the context of recent playtest material, increasingly sounds...well, I don't want to claim White Wolf were lying, per se. I just don't believe them. Because the V5 material put out doesn't bear out their claims.

                    It certainly sounds, to me, like White Wolf were desperately trying to avoid scaring off fans with that statement. But I don't see how, say, a Sabbat PC is going to operate for long when the very ethos of the sect will run headlong against the new game mechanics, like the need to keep mortal contacts. Say what you want about Humanity and/or the Paths of Enlightenment, but they left plenty of room for a vampire to generally have as little to do with mortals as they liked (unless you were on a specific alternate Path to the Dark Ages Road of Humanity, that happened to require it). Under V5, I don't see how it's even possible to run a vampire like that, unless you modified the rules or expunged them altogether. So, by Rules As Written, V5 has no place for Sabbat games. Or, indeed, any game where the PCs aren't frequently in contact with their choice humans.

                    Obviously if you don't like Touchstones, you don't have to use them. But it's the same problem Revised edition WoD had. You could always ignore metaplot or rules changes if you didn't like the Ravnos being destroyed or the Umbra being locked off behind a screaming wall of jagged glass that cut your soul. But if you did, the new edition (Revised then, V5 now) has nothing to offer you. So why bother buying the products?


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                    • by the way,i can't speak for anyone else but i'm not saying "Hey,there are more page". i'm basing my argument on what we've seen so far. And i really do believe there are many playstyles supported by the previews

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                      • Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                        sorry,my first post got cut when i meant to say
                        but,how exactly do you feel the game doesn't work with high political stuff? The powers of manipulating minds are there,the politics are mentioned,the conflicts between sects are enhanced,what it missing?
                        There's a Second Inquisition if you want to fight vampire hunters. The game is called "A Game personal and political"" so there is politics. i'm really not seeing your point i'm sorry
                        Because, anything else aside, the rules themselves to this point require focusing on your hunger and maintaining your mortal relationships as a primary game focus if you want to do things like not deal with big piles of hunger dice (of course you'll still generally have at least one on every single roll, because it's inescapable, and if you like that more power to you, but it regardless means what it means) and also exist with anything resembling a basic guiding code of anything?

                        Because especially within the framework of the latter, there are concepts now that just don't really work?

                        That's just off the top of my head.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by the v5 team
                          You can also join Beckett in his global quest to unravel hidden and forbidden Kindred secrets, or come face to face with the consequences of a modern intelligence community as instruments of government overreach while unraveling the horrifying intrigues of a Camarilla Prince.
                          Based on the review, I'll likely be skipping V5.


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                          • Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                            Based on the review, I'll likely be skipping V5.
                            ok,that was funny

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                            • Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                              MarkK Exactly.

                              That quote from White Wolf, taken in the context of recent playtest material, increasingly sounds...well, I don't want to claim White Wolf were lying, per se. I just don't believe them. Because the V5 material put out doesn't bear out their claims.

                              It certainly sounds, to me, like White Wolf were desperately trying to avoid scaring off fans with that statement. But I don't see how, say, a Sabbat PC is going to operate for long when the very ethos of the sect will run headlong against the new game mechanics, like the need to keep mortal contacts. Say what you want about Humanity and/or the Paths of Enlightenment, but they left plenty of room for a vampire to generally have as little to do with mortals as they liked (unless you were on a specific alternate Path to the Dark Ages Road of Humanity, that happened to require it). Under V5, I don't see how it's even possible to run a vampire like that, unless you modified the rules or expunged them altogether. So, by Rules As Written, V5 has no place for Sabbat games. Or, indeed, any game where the PCs aren't frequently in contact with their choice humans.

                              Obviously if you don't like Touchstones, you don't have to use them. But it's the same problem Revised edition WoD had. You could always ignore metaplot or rules changes if you didn't like the Ravnos being destroyed or the Umbra being locked off behind a screaming wall of jagged glass that cut your soul. But if you did, the new edition (Revised then, V5 now) has nothing to offer you. So why bother buying the products?
                              You've reminded me of something that's been bugging me on a smaller scale in the face of, say, neo-Nazi brujah as baseline, toreador snuff film rapture, the Touchstone rules, two playtests worth of hunger working exactly the same, a badly presented clan flaw as far as having any confidence in the mechanics...

                              But it's still bugging me

                              What does it do for anyone to take the week of nightmares and put it back in the game (the thing v5 does as per one of its loresheets)? Why re-blow up the Ravnos? What is accomplished by doing so? What do you do when do you that other than make anyone who were partial to the Ravnos go "oh, well screw this game."

                              Yes, I know. "Then ignore it". Past a certain point of piling up a bunch of "then ignore that" "then house rule that" "then ignore that" "then house rule that", you're left with "why am I even buying this." It's just one more thing to stack onto someone's pile of reasons.

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                              • Originally posted by MarkK View Post

                                Because, anything else aside, the rules themselves to this point require focusing on your hunger and maintaining your mortal relationships as a primary game focus if you want to do things like not deal with big piles of hunger dice (of course you'll still generally have at least one on every single roll, because it's inescapable, and if you like that more power to you, but it regardless means what it means) and also exist with anything resembling a basic guiding code of anything?

                                Because especially within the framework of the latter, there are concepts now that just don't really work?

                                That's just off the top of my head.
                                Well,now i'm seeing your point. what i can say is that the Hunger is an important aspect of the game,but to me that just adds the fun,it's not like a vampire can't do things like exploring an ancient temple,becoming politically powerful,falling in love with an human and protecting them from other vampires,hunting an infernalist,just because of her Hunger. But the Hunger does have to make an appeareance sooner or later,vampires have to possess dark impulses,they have to be fighting a Beast inside them. otherwise they're not vampires
                                You can be a politician,detective,lover,activist and whatever you want,the Hunger is what makes you a Brujah politician,an Nosferatu, activist,an Gangrel Lover,and a Ventrue activist
                                Last edited by Nicolas Milioni; 06-30-2018, 04:17 PM.

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