Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

V5 new preview is out!!!

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
    Well,now i'm seeing your point. what i can say is that the Hunger is an important aspect of the game,but to me that just adds the fun,it's not like a vampire can't do things like exploring an ancient temple,becoming politically powerful,falling in love with an human and protecting them from other vampires,hunting an infernalist,just because of her Hunger. But the Hunger does have to make an appeareance sooner or later,vampires have to possess dark impulses,they have to be fighting a Beast inside them. otherwise they're not vampires
    You can be a politician,detective,lover,activist and whatever you want,the Hunger is what makes you a Bruah politician,an Nosferatu,an Gangrel Lover,and a Ventrue activist
    There's a huge difference between "it shows up eventually" and "is always a factor to some degree". Similarly there are simply styles of play that focus heavily, indeed primarily, on interaction with other vampires and not really on those humans that don't really come off as possible with the Touchstone system. And, directly, as long as there are reasons to trigger frenzy, and there are, or certainly were, a variety of other reasons it triggers besides hunger, from rage to fear, there are any number of ways to remind that there is a Beast inside vampires that they are struggling with. Even something as basic as transgressions against your morals that take you closer to wassail are a reminder of that struggle just fine.

    This is really part of the problem for some people, myself included, responses like this. "Well unless you do it this way, you were never playing Vampire anyway" is as dismissive and honestly kinda insulting as the earlier "if you don't do it the way white wolf now wants you to, you were probably just some jerk looking to mega optimize the game for your own self aggrandizement" from that other dude.

    This really is the edition of vampire that seems designed to support people wanting to tell other people "well then you were always doing it wrong" more than even revised on its worst day. That, to go all punny again, sucks.

    There's nothing wrong with that you really like the idea of what this does. There's any number of things wrong with that it takes away space for doing things differently and encourages viewing doing things differently as bad and wrong anyway.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by MarkK View Post
      What does it do for anyone to take the week of nightmares and put it back in the game (the thing v5 does as per one of its loresheets)? Why re-blow up the Ravnos? What is accomplished by doing so? What do you do when do you that other than make anyone who were partial to the Ravnos go "oh, well screw this game."
      A few things. It lets us know that things like "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to" are not ok. It also lets us know that Gehenna and the elder horrors are real, and not what anyone might expect, even their loyal childer.

      I really don't understand all the hate about this. I mean, isn't the better question is what do you really loose by outright destroying an undefined portion of a barely a Clan to begin with group of mainly loners in a massive worldwide event? White Wolf was very clear that it was intentionally done to show it is all about to hit the fan, but also very specifically did not give any canon percentage of just how much of the Clan perished, when we never really had a great idea of just how many Ravnos even really existed. Honestly, what really changed as far as playing or using a Ravnos, minus maybe the exception of actually playing during the Week of Nightmares? On the other hand, it does place the surviving Ravnos in a very unique position to call BS on the Tzimizce, Lasombra, Giovanni, Tremere, Brujah, etc...
      Last edited by Beckett; 06-30-2018, 04:32 PM.


      Comment


      • Originally posted by MarkK View Post

        There's a huge difference between "it shows up eventually" and "is always a factor to some degree". Similarly there are simply styles of play that focus heavily, indeed primarily, on interaction with other vampires and not really on those humans that don't really come off as possible with the Touchstone system. And, directly, as long as there are reasons to trigger frenzy, and there are, or certainly were, a variety of other reasons it triggers besides hunger, from rage to fear, there are any number of ways to remind that there is a Beast inside vampires that they are struggling with. Even something as basic as transgressions against your morals that take you closer to wassail are a reminder of that struggle just fine.

        This is really part of the problem for some people, myself included, responses like this. "Well unless you do it this way, you were never playing Vampire anyway" is as dismissive and honestly kinda insulting as the earlier "if you don't do it the way white wolf now wants you to, you were probably just some jerk looking to mega optimize the game for your own self aggrandizement" from that other dude.

        This really is the edition of vampire that seems designed to support people wanting to tell other people "well then you were always doing it wrong" more than even revised on its worst day. That, to go all punny again, sucks.

        There's nothing wrong with that you really like the idea of what this does. There's any number of things wrong with that it takes away space for doing things differently and encourages viewing doing things differently as bad and wrong anyway.
        Oh man,i'm sorry if insulted you. it wans't my intention,i can get a little too passionated about some things i'm sorry

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Beckett View Post

          A few things. It lets us know that things like "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to" arenot ok. It also lets us know that Gehenna and the elder horrors are real, and not what anyone might expect, even their loyal childer.

          I really don't understand all the whining about this. I mean, isn't the better question is what do you really loose by outright destroying an undefined portion of a barely a Clan to begin with group of mainly loners in a massive worldwide event? White Wolf was very clear that it was intentionally done to show it is all about to hit the fan, but also very specifically did not give any canon percentage of just how much of the Clan perished, when we never really had a great idea of just how many Ravnos even really existed. Honestly, what really changed as far as playing or using a Ravnos, minus maybe the exception of actually playing during the Week of Nightmares? On the other hand, it does place the surviving Ravnos in a very unique position to call BS on the Tzimizce, Lasombra, Giovanni, Tremere, Brujah, etc...
          I don't really care about the Ravnos myself as a clan, and phrasing them as "barely a clan to begin with group of mainly loners" I much imagine you don't either, but the point would be, they had their fans, who I doubt viewed them that way. By blowing them up, you're just basically saying to such people "yeah well, meh to you". And "just because the thing you like is a fraction of itself now, doesn't mean you shouldn't enjoy playing embittered remnants we were at least generous to specify still exist in some nebulous way."

          It's one more touch that reinforces this being a game about removing play options, not giving them. And for anyone already looking at a pile of "well here's all the things I have to house rule or ignore", it's one more thing.

          As I said in my post, it's a comparatively small thing to everything else that's annoying, but it's still a thing, and it speaks to what the attitude of this edition comes off as.

          A counter argument of "in fact here's why doing this was great and made sense and also the Ravnos kinda sucked anyway" is again just "here's why anyone who didn't like the Ravnos being blowed up to a remnant was doing Vampire wrong anyway."

          And that's V5 I guess? "Vampire: The You Were Doing It Wrong." In both big ways and small ways.
          Last edited by MarkK; 06-30-2018, 04:43 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
            Oh man,i'm sorry if insulted you. it wans't my intention,i can get a little too passionated about some things i'm sorry
            Don't sweat it, I'm sure it wasn't intentional. I'm mostly at this point just observing that the advocacy for v5 choices has a sort of running theme that weaves through it.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
              Well,now i'm seeing your point. what i can say is that the Hunger is an important aspect of the game,but to me that just adds the fun,it's not like a vampire can't do things like exploring an ancient temple,becoming politically powerful,falling in love with an human and protecting them from other vampires,hunting an infernalist,just because of her Hunger. But the Hunger does have to make an appeareance sooner or later,vampires have to possess dark impulses,they have to be fighting a Beast inside them. otherwise they're not vampires
              You can be a politician,detective,lover,activist and whatever you want,the Hunger is what makes you a Brujah politician,an Nosferatu, activist,an Gangrel Lover,and a Ventrue activist
              Perhaps, but the Hunger mechanic is far different than the previous Blood Pool mechanic of previous editions.

              Hunger is far more intrusive. It is a constant reminder of how, well, hungry a character is. And it's in such a way as to mechanically impact play. The Blood Pool could eventually result in frenzy, and players were encouraged to take low amounts seriously. But the focus could shift onto any other story element the players wanted, until hunger frenzy became a problem. With V5's Hunger, you are constantly being affected by Hunger dice - at least one at base - and that turns it into a major distraction.

              Maybe you consider it appropriate, because "they're vampires and that's part of the appeal". But other players don't necessarily feel that way. Other players minimize the amount of time they think about feeding, because they consider it uninteresting. Thematically, that's just as significant, because it shows the player characters getting more jaded about the grisly act that supports their existence: drinking blood. For some players, it's entirely appropriate to handwave the act of feeding, so they can get back to their plots and the like. The first few times, Hunger will be exciting; after several sessions of keeping careful tabs on this and dealing with the oppressive weight of Hunger dice on everything they do, it will become tedious. Especially if the players weren't into the game for the sake of its personal horror. Or, contrarily, if they WERE into it, but don't actually need a mechanic to FORCE their engagement in the personal horror. For them, Hunger is a crutch they don't need, and only serves to bog them down in management of Hunger dice.

              With the blood pool, you only cared about it when you gained or lost blood, or when your blood became low. Often, this happened at the beginning of the night - when there's already a break in the action for scene transitions - when they mark off a blood point to wake. Or when they've been doing a bunch of activity, and just used a bunch of blood. Their desire to feed is reinforced through roleplay when they are reminded of it, and the desire to have a greater store of blood can organically encourage them to seek vessels. All while remaining hands off, in a manner that allows a character to go about their business and NOT think about it when they want to focus on different things.

              Did we also mention that "rousing" is done every time Disciplines are used? You didn't used to spend blood points for every Discipline use, so you could pull them out more often without blood being a problem. With Hunger, EVERY use of supernatural power Rouses, and thus brings the Hunger mechanic back into the forefront, regardless of what style of game you're playing or what you happened to be doing at the time. Again, distraction. It's not that you can't get into fights or delve into tombs, it's that the Hunger mechanic constantly butts in to remind you "you gotta feed right now".

              Yes, drinking blood is important for a vampire game. No, a vampire game does not need the player constantly reminded of that fact. That gets old fast.


              Comment


              • Personally, the thing I really hated about the Week of Nightmares is that someone *nuked* the Ravnos Antediluvian, and it survived, although its trenchcoat and katana both melted. Immensely powerful vampire I can live with, but that's just 50th level D&D character territory

                Comment


                • Anyone got an idea about the GenCon announcement that OPP will be making?
                  According to their Kickstarter Update there's something coming. Quote:
                  "In a little over a month, we'll be at Gen Con right next to White Wolf, and if all the omens are accurate, they'll have Vampire: The Masquerade 5th Edition for sale! Expect that we will have a cool joint VtM announcement at the con that we'll also be sharing in the rest of our social media."

                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms
                  The problem is how bloated a 400 page book is going to feel if these pages are any example. If it's 200 pages worth of game text... the previewed art and fiction do not say, "yes 200 pages of that!" to me.
                  We got 25 pages if looked past the cover and statement of intent.
                  2 pages thus 8% are BJD like "fiction via notes" pages.
                  3 pages thus 12% are "fiction via text" pages with the stuff about concepts and fashion.
                  6 pages thus 24% writeup on two clans with 8% Brujah and 16% Toreador
                  4 pages thus 16% illustration only pages
                  4 pages thus 16% mechanical write up of stuff like touchstones
                  3 pages thus 12% discipline write up for celerity
                  3 pages thus 12% are lore sheets.

                  If I compare that to previous corebooks the stuff was way more densely presented. Like,
                  Disciplines rarely spread over more than one page and a bit, all clans got 2 pages and stuff. Thus, based from the impression of the presented stuff, I don't expect it to be to densely packed.
                  Even things like Lore Sheets could be cool... but they're no great for the printed physical copy of the core book (you can only put a tiny sample in, and they take up a lot of space).
                  I prefer them very much to be the core book.
                  They do offer quite sufficient material to bring various metaplot events in.
                  Like, with the three examples I would feel confident of integrating the events.

                  To make it optional... seems like an exploitative idea which leaves the core book incomplete.
                  Like those tacky videogames that hide essential story stuff in DLC and aim to exploit the fans.
                  Which about describes my impression of those Exalted 3e Mini-PDFs/supplements (luckily I am not a fan of Exalted).
                  Originally posted by MarkK View Post
                  What does it do for anyone to take the week of nightmares and put it back in the game (the thing v5 does as per one of its loresheets)? Why re-blow up the Ravnos? What is accomplished by doing so? What do you do when do you that other than make anyone who were partial to the Ravnos go "oh, well screw this game."
                  I would assume one may chose to include the week of nightmare loresheets or not.
                  Like, if you prefer your Ravnos unnuked and India normal, don't include the loresheet.

                  If you do like some event surrounding the Ravnos, grab the loresheet and get an easy method to get your players involved.
                  Either way you'll still have to wait till you can make full use of the Ravnos as they are not yet in.

                  I think it does look like a nice method to be able to design ones game metaplot, to dose it and to make it accessible.
                  Specially if your players are new to the game and setting/metaplot but still want to engage in it meaningfully.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JezMiller View Post
                    Personally, the thing I really hated about the Week of Nightmares is that someone *nuked* the Ravnos Antediluvian, and it survived, although its trenchcoat and katana both melted. Immensely powerful vampire I can live with, but that's just 50th level D&D character territory
                    Remember,He's the greatest of all Illusionists and Charlatans,he could have created a copy of himself and that image was Nuked,while he was deep underground

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                      Remember,He's the greatest of all Illusionists and Charlatans,he could have created a copy of himself and that image was Nuked,while he was deep underground
                      I like that! Luke Skywalker versus the Walker. A *much* better explanation

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JezMiller View Post

                        I like that! Luke Skywalker versus the Walker. A *much* better explanation
                        Wait,you don't mean Walker from the Nightside ,do you?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                          Well,now i'm seeing your point. what i can say is that the Hunger is an important aspect of the game,but to me that just adds the fun,it's not like a vampire can't do things like exploring an ancient temple,becoming politically powerful,falling in love with an human and protecting them from other vampires,hunting an infernalist,just because of her Hunger. But the Hunger does have to make an appeareance sooner or later,vampires have to possess dark impulses,they have to be fighting a Beast inside them. otherwise they're not vampires
                          You can be a politician,detective,lover,activist and whatever you want,the Hunger is what makes you a Brujah politician,an Nosferatu, activist,an Gangrel Lover,and a Ventrue activist
                          How exactly do you go out and explore said temple and deal with your touchstones at the same time?

                          Option A: Leave them at home while you're gone for weeks or months, and who knows what that causes mechanically. Oh, and there's that distinct possibility some enemy of yours offs them while you're out playing Indiana Jones.
                          Option B: Bring them with you into who knows what horrors mortals were not meant to know. And venomous critters. And random accidents. And unhappy blood deity you may awaken. And all the other dangers of such a trip..

                          It seems to me there are some things White Wolf is advertising that aren't going to work as well as they suggest.


                          "At the risk of sounding like a murder hobo"

                          Attributed to Nyrufa.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MarkK View Post

                            You've reminded me of something that's been bugging me on a smaller scale in the face of, say, neo-Nazi brujah as baseline, toreador snuff film rapture, the Touchstone rules, two playtests worth of hunger working exactly the same, a badly presented clan flaw as far as having any confidence in the mechanics...

                            But it's still bugging me

                            What does it do for anyone to take the week of nightmares and put it back in the game (the thing v5 does as per one of its loresheets)? Why re-blow up the Ravnos? What is accomplished by doing so? What do you do when do you that other than make anyone who were partial to the Ravnos go "oh, well screw this game."

                            Yes, I know. "Then ignore it". Past a certain point of piling up a bunch of "then ignore that" "then house rule that" "then ignore that" "then house rule that", you're left with "why am I even buying this." It's just one more thing to stack onto someone's pile of reasons.

                            Because V5 isn't building from the metaplot-agnostic V20. You should just really not even think about V20 in relation to V5 until we see something that references anything written specifically for V20 like Anarch Sorcery or those Justicars and such. They've stated that V5 is building from the end of Revised, where that did happen.

                            And I don't get this whole 'having hunger and having to deal with humans makes political play/running around with Beckett/etc. inviable'. I just... don't get it. People talk about Hunger like you're going to be at Hunger 5 ALL THE FUCKING TIME. And you will if you're Rousing left, right and indifferent. Just like you'd be Hungry and have to deal with Frenzy if you spent vitae left, right and indifferent. But on average unless you're in the middle of combat and having to use active Disciplines (and hey, we've already seen that passive Disciplines do lots of cool stuff and don't Rouse Hunger) a LOT, or use Disciplines to solve all your problems... well, that's on your playstyle, not the game itself. One or two Hunger is not the end of the world that people make it out to be.

                            Also, it was stated in this very thread that we don't know how often you have to interact, or in really what way, with Touchstones in the final version, but everyone here is acting like you have to go to dinner with them every fucking night to make them matter. We don't have context of how often you have to deal with them. And honestly, part of vampire fiction has always been protecting your resources; it's a great story hook for something like a rival threatening a Touchstone.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by elmerg View Post
                              And I don't get this whole 'having hunger and having to deal with humans makes political play/running around with Beckett/etc. inviable'. I just... don't get it. People talk about Hunger like you're going to be at Hunger 5 ALL THE FUCKING TIME. And you will if you're Rousing left, right and indifferent. Just like you'd be Hungry and have to deal with Frenzy if you spent vitae left, right and indifferent. But on average unless you're in the middle of combat and having to use active Disciplines (and hey, we've already seen that passive Disciplines do lots of cool stuff and don't Rouse Hunger) a LOT, or use Disciplines to solve all your problems... well, that's on your playstyle, not the game itself. One or two Hunger is not the end of the world that people make it out to be.
                              But you will be rousing left, right, and indifferent, as you say, because there are useful disciplines out there that at one time didn't cost vitae to use but now every time a discipline is used, its user is roused. Specifically, Auspex is going to become a problem discipline, because there is no reason whatsoever that rousing should be involved in any of its powers.


                              "At the risk of sounding like a murder hobo"

                              Attributed to Nyrufa.

                              Comment


                              • Oh,just a heads up. The Neo-Nazi Brujah Thing and the Toreador Liked Snuff filmes is not an clan wide phenoma. It's just meant to remind the reader that Brujah are sometimes passioned for evil causes,and that toreador may be entranced by evil stuff. It's a reminder evil is a part of their world

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X