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Alternate origins for the clans

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  • Alternate origins for the clans

    One thing i don´t like is that Noddism is 100% true no fake.I belive some mistery should be left letting the players and storytellers create their own origin stories and I think that for that instead of antediluvians and Cain the books should talk about founders with different origin stories than it was all Caine fault for example the clan toreador:

    Toreador was the most beutiful person on mesopotamia , he/she stole the virginity of the inocent goddes of beuty Ishtar who was seduced by his words and later he chose to abandom her.Enraged Ishtar sended the Bull of Heavens to kill Toreador but he/she dodged all his attacks earning his name and Ishtar seeing that she could not kill him decided to land a curse upon him:
    "You that dodge the death shall dodge it for eternity as the joy of being able to rest in peace is denied to you and in the same way you stoled my blood you will steal blood everynight"
    The Clan Toreador was born



    Of course Noddism without being 100 % real should contain certain pieces of truth and is still a thing , after all sabbat need it becuase it is sustained by the assumption that all that is written in the book of Nod it´s real and one day the antes will raise to fuck the world as a blood gods that must be stopped by them the self proclaimed sword of cain.

    Now what are your alternate origin stories?


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  • #2
    So... you're talking about Requiem?

    Noddism isn't exactly 100% true because, outside of Gehenna scenarios, not many from the beginning time are awake/alive/not wanting the wholesale slaughter of vampire kind so not exactly approachable. Ur-Shulgi is hiding something about the past and most of his contemporaries are dead or in torpor.

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    • #3
      I've got some twists on the traditional creation stories but no one which are totally divorced from Noddism. The reason is that I think that Abrahamitic mythology works so incredible well with the themes of vampires that I am entirely unwilling to divorce myself from it. The ones I have are basically based on the legends of the Nephilim, on Lilith and on each Antediluvian being individually cursed to vampirism.

      Nephilim: Essentially that some of the Nephilim survived the flood due to their magical powers and unnatural existance. Problem is that their bodies did die but they the surviving 13 Nephilim have kept after the water receded and created a brood of immortal offspring. Now you might wonder what happened to those Nephilim who did not possess the power to keep their bodies moving. Their spirits were cast into the Abyss with their angelic fathers. But at times some of them manages to find a way out of the endless darkness. Those who do are, at least in Europe and the Americas, called the Strix.

      Lilith: After escaping the Garden Lilith was cursed to see her children die but she refused and for each lover she took she had a child that she used her magic on to cheat death and make them as living dead and so created the Antediluvians. [Brujah]'s father was Caine, with the Serpent in the Garden Lilith had [Set] and [Cappadocius] with Death and so on. At times she comes in one form or another to interact with her children and their children but most have forgotten about her by now, and even her tribulations brought onto them are seldom enough these nights to make them recognize her.

      Each One Cursed: That there were essentially horrible people who terrorized the earth and brought down a great wrath. [Ventrue] set himself up as the Lord of Heaven and Earth and demanded all bow to him and slew, or did worse to, anyone who did not, [Nosferatu] sought to hunt and slay every unbeautiful creature in the world while [Assamite] was a corrupt judge who laid down terrible judgements for vices it itself engaged in at will. One by one a curse was put on them in payment for their crimes and one by one they were forced into the darkness were each sought to deal with fate in a different way.

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      • #4
        God created vampires,but not in the way you'r thinking. The first vampire was not caine,Caine is another can of worms. The first vampire was the first transhumanist,the first sentient being who decided they should be immortal. God granted their wish,in hopes they'd eventually see that immortality is now worth it

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
          So... you're talking about Requiem?

          Noddism isn't exactly 100% true because, outside of Gehenna scenarios, not many from the beginning time are awake/alive/not wanting the wholesale slaughter of vampire kind so not exactly approachable. Ur-Shulgi is hiding something about the past and most of his contemporaries are dead or in torpor.
          Yes and No

          Yes in the sense that i like what requiem did making the vampire origin unclear becuase the unknow is frigthening (Hello God Machine)

          No becuase this is masquerade and there is the mathusaleah like ur-shulgi , elders who interacted with these ancient beings and the shadows of the founders is there meaning that there are treats to follows and meanwhile in requiem we have the fog of ages making that more difficult.The difference will be the origin of those founders that can be comunal or different maybe some antes come from caine and others not , maybe the antes are powerful but not invincible blood gods etc...

          Let´s say it´s similar and well even if noddism isnt 100% true the books tend to make at least 90% of it true and i prefer some mistery.
          Last edited by Leandro16; 07-01-2018, 11:49 AM.


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          • #6
            Hence why I said it wasn't 100% true. I know there are elders that have met the clan founders. Some of them are still undead. A good chunk of them are not awake, though, because the older a vampire gets the longer they stay in torpor. Of the 4th gen only a handful are known to be still up and running. And of those, the ones not trying to kill all kindred aren't up for talking much, if they even remember that far back.

            The books give an idea of what happened, but are told from the perspective of narrators that weren't there. They are going off a history that wasn't originally written down (unless you count the Book of Not, which may or may not be legit).

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            • #7
              I'll take a stab at it.


              Once, many years ago, there was a winter that had lasted as long as any could remember. The snow had fallen for so long that it piled up higher than the birds could fly or the sun could shine. The people learned how to survive. They drank the water melting off the mountains of ice and snow. They hunted the animals in the cold shadow of the great ice, though there were few of these, due to the forever winter.

              The people, led by Wise Mother, called Beloved Daughter of the Gods, had selected the wisest hunter and warrior among them to rule the people. The Great King was allowed to climb the ice mountain to speak with their gods and learn how to survive endless winter for another generation, as did the Great Kings before him.

              Then, in the space of only a few years, the world grew warmer. The mountains of ice began to melt. The plants, who knew how to live in cold, withered and died in summer sun. The animals, with their heavy fur for endless winters, panted and starved and died in the sweaty, long days of summer. The Great King, however, refused to allow his people to die. Great King explained that people were neither plants nor animals, for they could learn to live and even prosper in winter or summer.

              Great King issued commands, of which none of the people understood the purpose, but all followed the Great King's counsel. He commanded them to gather the dead trees and bind them with the sinew of mammoths the men had killed. He commanded the women to gather the seed of the dead plants and wrap them in the mammoth's hide, and store water in the severed horns of the mammoths.

              Then, he gave unto the people the most terrible command: "People of endless winter, climb onto these dead trees, and bind yourself, and your wives, and your parents, and your children, and your servants, and your masters, and all those you love and all those you hate, and even all those whose name you do not know. Tie all of these onto these trees, for this is called a raft. With it, I shall carry you as a father carries his infant son upon his shoulder, to land of plenty. And your bellies shall again grow large, and your children shall grow tall, if you obey"

              And the waters of the ice mountains burst forth and carried the people for the time of a full moon to a full moon and again to a half moon. And while this half moon still shone, the people washed ashore on a new land. It was a land of warmth, of forever sun, and of brown, hot dirt. They were much afraid and turned upon their Great King.

              "Thou charlatan who claim to be a Great King! You have led us away from our homes, where our ancestors are buried and where someday all of us were to join them. What great folly! What great carelessness! Oh, where have you lead us, O, King of Fools?"

              But Wise Mother stood and called out, "Indeed a King of Fools, for you are his people! Ingrates! Worthless mules! Would you be buried like your dead? Whose bodies were washed away and now feed the fish and the eel! Great King has saved us all. Now idle your venom-soaked tongues."

              And until the full moon, all with a voice were stuck mute. Neither the men, nor the women uttered a word. Neither the children, nor the servants. Neither beast, nor bird. Neither did the wind howl, nor the waves of the sea crash.

              All was silence in the land.

              Great King refused to leave his tent when speech once again came upon the people. Wise Mother came to him.

              "Great King? Why do you hide in your tent? Why do you shade yourself from the light of your people?"

              "Mother, the people are correct. I have failed them. We must surely die in this foreign land of foreign beasts, with the bitter taste of foreign herbs upon our lips." And, given again the gift of speech, Great King used it only to wail.

              Wise Mother stuck Great King with great force upon his chest with her staff. "The people are right! You are a fool if you do not understand. We are not in a foreign land. We are in our rightful home, as if we tread with the very bones of our ancestors crunching beneath our feet as our soil. Wherever your feet tread is surely your rightful kingdom, O, Great King, for you were chosen by the Gods themselves, who will never forsake you."

              At that, the people stood crying at the tent's door. "Great King, we have again found our voice, and can tell you. In this land, terrible beasts of fang and fur and scale steal into our camp every night and take our children and elders for their dinner! Save us, O, Great King!"

              "O, people of the raft, surely you are ungrateful and of changeable mien, for now you beseech a hero to save you? How long since last you cursed me?"

              "We have never cursed you, O, Great King", lied the people.

              "Wise Mother", said the Great King, "Send me forth into the darkness, where I will protect them from the predators who steal their children, for I take pity upon the weak and the old. Never again will I walk among the people of the day, for they are vile and without honor. The fools and liars around me cower at passing clouds, and strike the air in confusion as if to wound! I will protect their land, however, as it is my land, and I cede it to none."

              "But what will you eat?" asked Wise Mother. She jabbed at his belly with her staff, and filled it full with great bounty, bulging with wealth.

              "The people, themselves, for if not by my counsel, they would surely have died. All that they have, all that they shall ever have, is rightly mine, as long as I protect them. They owe me their service, their love, and their blood."

              And, the Wise Mother made it so. She raised her staff and struck him one last time upon the chest, with all her might. She then laid with him as his body turned cold and white, and she shared with him the blood of the Gods, for it was in that season he was laid low and raised high.

              And the Great King went forth, and kept his word, as the people keep not theirs. For him, the night was as day, and blood was as food, and life was as death. And he found plants for the people to eat, and wine for the people to drink, and built walls for to keep the people safe.

              And he fought at the front of the armies of the people, for swords would shatter upon his chest as upon stone. And, he led the people forth to conquer and to enslave their enemies. But, he took no consort from these slaves, for he had sworn himself to his people and none other. Neither did he take consort among those who consorted with the foreigners among them, for the seed of these were not his to harvest, though gladly he took the fruits of their orchards and the grains of their fields to fatten his household.

              And, true to his word, he preserved the people at the cost of a few of the people among them.

              And, finally, the people were grateful.

              Thus was born the Great King of Bounty, known to this night as Ventru.

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              • #8
                Spirit Pacts
                The first vampire or vampires were beings that made pacts with powerful spirits for immortality, this means that the beast is a piece of this great spirit or set of spirits and the thirst is a blood offering that must be made through imbibing it to keep the immortality and the other various boons the spirits offer. The clan weaknesses are just what happens when you deal with malicious spirits, you take on aspects of them.

                The War For Nod
                The antediluvians cursed eachother. This began with simple slights, Lasombra being unable to see their reflection because Toreador wanted to punish them for their vanity, Ventrue was made a picky eater because the Gangrel anti thought he was a jerk, etc. A war breaks out and the founders spread out, their curses passing on to their childer.

                Set Was Right
                Exactly what it sounds like. The Settites were the first true vampires and all other offshoots are just bastardizations of the one true clan. Set was a god, and therefor the mortals he favored gained his blessings.

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                • #9
                  Cthulu type beings. There are no Antedeluvians, rather, horrors from the outer dark infected creatures, and that infection spread, but because this reality is antithetical to Chthulu types, the infection constantly weakens.

                  The Ante's each made a pact with the Devil, and are not related in any other sense. Vampires are just what you get when the Devil grants someone immortality.

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                  • #10
                    Nothing gets me more excited than thinking about new ways to "bring back the mystery" that at least some of us felt as new players.

                    For my part, I've significantly rewritten the backstory for the games I run precisely because I like it to be a mystery for my players (if they want... they're free to read the stuff I've written but most of them don't, preferring to rely on the lore sheets I've created over the last several decades). The way I've set it up, there are three "tablets" -- the word is in quotes because they sometimes show up as codexes or scrolls, too -- that were put into the world at various points by demonic forces. The tablets are designed to create long-term opportunities for demonic influence in the world, and each sketches out a ritual that, if successfully carried out, leads to the creation of a new vampire clan, at which point the tablet usually disappears only to surface centuries later, in another time, place, and form. They work in slightly different ways, and produce very slightly different types of vampire clans. ("Beast" clans, "Mystic" clans, and "Demonic" clans. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out which clans go where.)

                    Some clans (Sumerian Gangrel, Egyptian Setites, Hebrew Malkavians, Greek Toreador) are thus much, MUCH older than the younger clans (Spanish Lasombra, Byzantine Nosferatu, Carpathian Tzimisce, and the Tremere) and have potential"access", as it were, to much, much more powerful elders. (This gets evened out somewhat by the fact that most vampires in my version of the WoD don't make it past 1500 or so because of Beast/Humanity issues.) This also gives each clan a very specific cultural *feel*, at least in their founding. The Ventrue are the way the Ventrue are, i.e., trying to take over the world and impose order, because they are at heart Romans. The Brujah are the way they are in great part because they were founded in Carthage, worhsipped the Phoenician gods like Tanit, Baal, etc., and then were scattered to regions like southern France and coastal Spain (where they picked up their name).

                    If you want to read more about it, you can skim through the reference guide I made. It's written more as a reference guide than a generally accessible introduction, but it still has some interesting things in it, I think. It's mostly lineages till around page 60 or so, though the lineages have stories embedded within them.

                    Here's a url for it:

                    https://sabercathost.com/5cz5/Backgr..._-_CURRENT.pdf



                    (My apologies to those who have heard me go on about this before.)

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                    • #11
                      I'm feeling bored so I wrote up the names of Lilith's thirteen lovers with whom she got the Antediluvians as mentioned in my post above for the "Lilith" scenario. Some of them were inspired and some where not. Malkav, Nosferatu, Salubri and Ravnos are such that I'm a bit unsatisfied with the choices but I couldn't find anyone that worked better. And in the case of Ravnos its not even a Biblical but Gnostic figure (or at least that's what Wikipedia tells me).

                      Assamite – The Destroying/Slayer Angel (the one who does God's killing for him, like the firstborn in Egypt or the Assyrian soldiers and so on)
                      Brujah - Caine
                      Set – Serpent in the Garden
                      Gangrel - Behemoth
                      Malkav - Amalek
                      Nosferatu - Esau
                      Toreador - Samyaza
                      Salubri – Ham (Biblical person)
                      Cappdocius – Samael
                      Tzimisce - Tammuz
                      Ventrue – Baal
                      Ravnos - Abraxas
                      Lasombra – Leviathan

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                      • #12
                        Wow too much creativity here , I especially liked the Ventru one All Hail To the Bounty King and the spririt ones becuase it´s something I tend to use but every idea was great and worth of reading.

                        Here are some headcannons for my antes
                        • Malkav was a Marauder too powerful that when he belived to be a vampire he became one.The joke is that if he discovers he isnt all his clan and he will die.
                        • Ennoia was a hunter who fighted against a Hunger Spirit to save his village and ended eating the flesh of his foe to survive winning it´s powers and banes.Also his village was destroyed by she in frenzy so all was in vain.
                        • Capadoccius was a wraith that resurrected thanks to a ritual became a vampire, if you are looking for the Sargon Fragment it´s in a cave in the shadowlands.
                        • LaSombra was a Merchant who got launched into the abyss for tricking spirits , he made a deal with "whatever" was in there and now it´s a vampire.
                        • Zarapatsura is the brother of Ennoia but he didnt heredated the power of his mother , he was alone with his cunning and he used that cunning to trick the gods (True Fae) in to giving him great powers , angry for that the gods launched a curse against him that made him the bloody creature he is now,




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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post

                          Yes and No

                          Yes in the sense that i like what requiem did making the vampire origin unclear becuase the unknow is frigthening (Hello God Machine)

                          No becuase this is masquerade and there is the mathusaleah like ur-shulgi , elders who interacted with these ancient beings and the shadows of the founders is there meaning that there are treats to follows and meanwhile in requiem we have the fog of ages making that more difficult.The difference will be the origin of those founders that can be comunal or different maybe some antes come from caine and others not , maybe the antes are powerful but not invincible blood gods etc...

                          Let´s say it´s similar and well even if noddism isnt 100% true the books tend to make at least 90% of it true and i prefer some mistery.

                          No, its profoundly unrealistic because memories are unreliable. You don't need Fog of Ages you just need natural human failings. The whole reason we write things down is because memory has all sorts of issues. This is BEFORE dealing with the fact.. Kindred LIE. We know for a fact Ur-Shulgi is a profound liar and is manipulating his clan for hisown gains.. any statement one gets from him is dubious at best.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lian View Post


                            No, its profoundly unrealistic because memories are unreliable. You don't need Fog of Ages you just need natural human failings. The whole reason we write things down is because memory has all sorts of issues. This is BEFORE dealing with the fact.. Kindred LIE. We know for a fact Ur-Shulgi is a profound liar and is manipulating his clan for hisown gains.. any statement one gets from him is dubious at best.
                            Of course Kindred Lie it´s their second nature if not first but that´s not the point.The point it´s WE the players and STs have the books which gives us more information than the elders themselves have about the jyhad and all those books are promoting NODcentrism and killing the mistery which is the reason i made this theme cuz I wanted to see alternate Origins that weren´t all was Cain Fault (That being said Caine is an interesting character but I dislike him being the center of ALL in vampire).

                            And about human failings , the ones that know some small piece of truth (Not All) even if they aren´t gonna tell it are the methusaleahs and they have little of human , they are superhuman and they defenitely don´t suffer Alzeimer to the point of forgotting something so important as their clan origins or if they aren´t that old the moment of their embrace and who their sire is.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post

                              Of course Kindred Lie it´s their second nature if not first but that´s not the point.The point it´s WE the players and STs have the books which gives us more information than the elders themselves have about the jyhad and all those books are promoting NODcentrism and killing the mistery which is the reason i made this theme cuz I wanted to see alternate Origins that weren´t all was Cain Fault (That being said Caine is an interesting character but I dislike him being the center of ALL in vampire).
                              Read BJD. IT has a pretty solid "Caine" or "The antedeluvians" are just a bunch of cheaters in a tradition that goes back to the dawn of humanity possibly further..

                              And about human failings , the ones that know some small piece of truth (Not All) even if they aren´t gonna tell it are the methusaleahs and they have little of human , they are superhuman and they defenitely don´t suffer Alzeimer to the point of forgotting something so important as their clan origins or if they aren´t that old the moment of their embrace and who their sire is.
                              No, they are profoundly failable in a human sense. Nothing about the Kindred condition makes you less prone to wishful thinking, cognative biases and the fact that if you tell a lie for 1000 years you probably start to believe it. More the Kindred condition probably makes one MORE suseptable to those things. So random Vampire predynastic egypt starts calling himself a "God" by the time Lower and Upper Egypt Unite he sure as hell thinks he's a God and born of the sun he's told that lie so many times...

                              Or lets apply that to caine. He's just a random vampire from subsaharan africa who doesn't want to give up his power.. so he hears a local legend about "the third mortal" and starts claiming that's him. He does it for thousands of years and over time he's told the Lie so many times.. he's come to believe it in part. And then Saulot travels east and finds humans and vampires there and he's all "THIS IS BULLSHIT CAINE YOU FUCKING LIAR"(See the Transylvania Chronicles for explicit details!)

                              The idea that we need something like Fog of Ages when studies have been done on normal people that if they repeat a lie enough it becomes a fact in their head....

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