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  • #16
    Originally posted by Lian View Post

    Read BJD. IT has a pretty solid "Caine" or "The antedeluvians" are just a bunch of cheaters in a tradition that goes back to the dawn of humanity possibly further..



    No, they are profoundly failable in a human sense. Nothing about the Kindred condition makes you less prone to wishful thinking, cognative biases and the fact that if you tell a lie for 1000 years you probably start to believe it. More the Kindred condition probably makes one MORE suseptable to those things. So random Vampire predynastic egypt starts calling himself a "God" by the time Lower and Upper Egypt Unite he sure as hell thinks he's a God and born of the sun he's told that lie so many times...

    Or lets apply that to caine. He's just a random vampire from subsaharan africa who doesn't want to give up his power.. so he hears a local legend about "the third mortal" and starts claiming that's him. He does it for thousands of years and over time he's told the Lie so many times.. he's come to believe it in part. And then Saulot travels east and finds humans and vampires there and he's all "THIS IS BULLSHIT CAINE YOU FUCKING LIAR"(See the Transylvania Chronicles for explicit details!)

    The idea that we need something like Fog of Ages when studies have been done on normal people that if they repeat a lie enough it becomes a fact in their head....

    Memory is very fragile in general look at books you own and haven't read in 20 years. You'll remember the big parts but lots of it is lost if you give it a reread. Now go 30, 40, 50, years and your lucky you recognize the title. 2,000 years it's probably more just that it shaped your perspective slightly but really you you have no recollection what so ever. That said, it's a game. My vampires remember all
    Last edited by Vamps Like Us; 07-04-2018, 09:36 PM. Reason: Edit quoted the post since it my reply went to the next page.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Lian View Post

      Read BJD. IT has a pretty solid "Caine" or "The antedeluvians" are just a bunch of cheaters in a tradition that goes back to the dawn of humanity possibly further..



      No, they are profoundly failable in a human sense. Nothing about the Kindred condition makes you less prone to wishful thinking, cognative biases and the fact that if you tell a lie for 1000 years you probably start to believe it. More the Kindred condition probably makes one MORE suseptable to those things. So random Vampire predynastic egypt starts calling himself a "God" by the time Lower and Upper Egypt Unite he sure as hell thinks he's a God and born of the sun he's told that lie so many times...

      Or lets apply that to caine. He's just a random vampire from subsaharan africa who doesn't want to give up his power.. so he hears a local legend about "the third mortal" and starts claiming that's him. He does it for thousands of years and over time he's told the Lie so many times.. he's come to believe it in part. And then Saulot travels east and finds humans and vampires there and he's all "THIS IS BULLSHIT CAINE YOU FUCKING LIAR"(See the Transylvania Chronicles for explicit details!)

      The idea that we need something like Fog of Ages when studies have been done on normal people that if they repeat a lie enough it becomes a fact in their head....
      I have read some months ago BJD and if my memory doesnt fail me what Zao-Lat finds in Asia are Kue Jin who are "vampires" but not the same type of vampires as he is.

      Whatever my point doesnt change the books are NODcentric and I prefer to have different origins for each clan cuz the figure of the founders is too powerful to make then be dependant of the legend of Caine (Who in my headcannon still exist but he isnt the Dark Father of all clans , only 5).

      About the Fog of Ages I only mentioned it becuase not existing in masquerade makes it more easy to investigate about the founders even if there are lies in the middle than in requiem where to cite another diference there the figure of the Great Founder that i like from masquerade can be there but isnt need at all cuz generation is replaced by blood potency.To be fair I didnt expect that much debate from a simple comparison.
      Last edited by Leandro16; 07-04-2018, 09:53 PM.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post


        Memory is very fragile in general look at books you own and haven't read in 20 years. You'll remember the big parts but lots of it is lost if you give it a reread. Now go 30, 40, 50, years and your lucky you recognize the title. 2,000 years it's probably more just that it shaped your perspective slightly but really you you have no recollection what so ever. That said, it's a game. My vampires remember all
        My Vampires "Remember" alot!

        That doesn't mean they aren't completely fucking wrong! Its why you get a book of Nod that sounds like it was written during medieval times. Caine might legitimately remember killing his brother and that it some how got him cursed.. that doesn't mean it happened.

        Its not about what people forget its about what they "remember"

        See for example the Mandela effect.


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        • #19
          Just experience tells that. I'm close to 50, a month ago I looked at a second grade class photo. Couldn't name half of them despite going to school with basically the same class mates for years. Realistically vampires from the thousands of years ago would remember nothing past the things that continued to come up on the regular. Their name, where they were born, those closest to them. Faces to names? They don't even have photos unless that person was hugely impactfull for centuries could they pick them out of a line up after millennium? I doubt it but wheres the fun in that. Maybe it's there 7 or 8 dots of intelligence that make the difference.

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          • #20
            I like the idea that the 13 original vampires were the most powerful mages from across the lands (witches coven) who came together and gave themselves immortality sort of like the Tremere. They lived together for a long time, but with endless nights they grew restless and went their separate ways furthering their own agendas and interests. No 1st or second generation, 3rd is powerful enough. They spread the masters of life and death thing for safety.

            Or maybe the fourth generation are the ones who turned on the 13 and destroyed Enoch. Despite being the most powerful they are still quite killable by a large group of 4th and 5th gens. I dislike the whole survive nukes version. I also dislike Gehenna and think it and thirst of ages came from Queen of the Dammed and it's just a bedtime story to scare the kids. The 13 are real but some were interacting with the riffraff not 600 years ago. (I still give vamps who do diablerie thirst of ages but it's more like a heroin addiction)
            Last edited by Vamps Like Us; 07-04-2018, 10:42 PM.

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            • #21
              Yes, the books tend to treat Noddism as the one true myth and close to fact.

              Thought that said, maybe not Caine and etc, but the idea of a First City and Second City - that can all too frequently get confused or outright conflated - and lots of talk about the Antediluvians/Clan Founders.

              Enough so that one could easily say there's only the Antes at the top and tales about Caine and 2nd generation above them just a work of historical revisionism/big damn lies written by late antiquity/early medieval undead copist monks fitting facts to their christian sensibilities and way from its paganism & blood magic roots.

              In my own games even the clan founders' existence is questionable, clues and rumors having been thrown that certain antediluvians created - and destroyed - multiple clans at different periods and places through their millenia-long existences, while others never cared to make broods of their own. Damn, i have even hinted there's no 3rd gen, there's only "4th gen" and "4th gen plus", the tier of those who have transcended on either, mind, body, beast or a combination of the three.

              Not to mention my "Enoch is Tenoch(titlan), aka Mexico City", game. That was an evil one.

              It's all in what you care to make of the game with your player groups in the end.
              Last edited by Baaldam; 07-11-2018, 10:44 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                Yes, the books tend to treat Noddism as the one true myth and close to fact.

                In my own games even the clan founders' existence is questionable, clues and rumors having been thrown that certain antediluvians created - and destroyed - multiple clans at different periods and places through their millenia-long existences, while others never cared to make broods of their own. Damn, i have even hinted there's no 3rd gen, there's only "4th gen" and "4th gen plus", the tier of those who have transcended on either, mind, body, beast or a combination of the three.
                In my games i tend to do something similar , the elders from the camarilla treath the belief in the antediluvians as a myth and they promote other cults and alternate visions of the origins of the clans to make neonates confused and think of Noddism as another religion , this weakens the sabbat and gives the players the hability to choose their belief or make their own about the origin of vampirism.Only if they investigate enought are the players able to pick bits of my headcanons about the founders.Keeps the mistery and encorages the players to make theories.

                About transcendence and the Antes being 4th gen+ you are giving me ideas , I use a hybrid system between Masquerade and Requiem were blood potency is a thing limited only by "generation" and the idea of Golconda is there although no as a buddist state of moral abrahamic superiority but as some kind of spiritual transformation that changes your relationship with the beast (Heck I replaced humanity with self control) so maybe I will end integrating this idea in my own way.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post
                  I like the idea that the 13 original vampires were the most powerful mages from across the lands (witches coven) who came together and gave themselves immortality sort of like the Tremere. They lived together for a long time, but with endless nights they grew restless and went their separate ways furthering their own agendas and interests. No 1st or second generation, 3rd is powerful enough. They spread the masters of life and death thing for safety.

                  Or maybe the fourth generation are the ones who turned on the 13 and destroyed Enoch. Despite being the most powerful they are still quite killable by a large group of 4th and 5th gens. I dislike the whole survive nukes version. I also dislike Gehenna and think it and thirst of ages came from Queen of the Dammed and it's just a bedtime story to scare the kids. The 13 are real but some were interacting with the riffraff not 600 years ago. (I still give vamps who do diablerie thirst of ages but it's more like a heroin addiction)
                  Some of my antes were mages too, not all of them in fact only a minority , Malkav in my headcanon is a victim of a paradox slash or is a marauder that rewrited his own reality becoming a vampire.

                  About the antes being walking blood gods ,some of my antes can wreck a city with a lot of effort but they cannot suvive a direct hit of a nuclear blast althought some of them will survive but becuase the blast never hit them to being.LaSombra could for example escape to the abyss , Zarapatsura be a illusion , Ennoia protect herself in the deeps of the earth crust etc... But a direct impact will kill them for sure as can also kill them another mathusalens but this depends on the founder and the mathusalen in cuestion as some are strongers or weaker than others (My version of Asimilard is killed by Vasilissa tricked by Baba Yaga).

                  Now talking about Gehena , I like the paronia and the kindred beliving this are the final night becuase they have been saying that since the year of their embrace but my version of Gehena is different from the Antes going full Kaiju.Gehena it´s what happens when an antediluvian dies a no one replaced him by comitting diablerie or ascending to one via golconda , a pact with a spirit of hunger or something else , the point is that when this happens the clan must fight to resist a colective frenzy as the pain of their founder is shared by the chains of blood and later they experiment the whitering until their bodies become dust.They can survive if they commit diablerie on the members of others clans chaining themselves to another founder.





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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post

                    In my games i tend to do something similar , the elders from the camarilla treath the belief in the antediluvians as a myth and they promote other cults and alternate visions of the origins of the clans to make neonates confused and think of Noddism as another religion , this weakens the sabbat and gives the players the hability to choose their belief or make their own about the origin of vampirism.Only if they investigate enought are the players able to pick bits of my headcanons about the founders.Keeps the mistery and encorages the players to make theories.
                    I tend to do things both ways, so to speak - the Noddist/biblical is sort of the norm still in the western world so to speak, due to the simple fact most elders are a product of renaissance or medieval culture, but you get alternate myths, theories and tales from remnants of pagan cultures, heretic subgroups and dedicated researchers and naysayers that come across varied sources of their own. Much of the same occurs to a greater degree in Africa, Asia and parts of the other continents.

                    And things get obviously .... complicated with ancient kindred coming from cultures with nary a bit of a biblical background to their myths and religion.
                    Meaning you get stuff like Critias* from Chicago by Night speaking of antediluvian origins in terms of atlantean demigod-kings with the blood of Poseidon in their veins straight from platonic dialogue, among other fun bits. The fact most of this stuff i came up very early in the setting, when most of the clanbooks aand lore didn't even exist, also played a role in that.

                    As an aside, i just rehashed the kue-jin as kindred in my games, exactly because i found the whole idea of "make a new system due to myth incompatibility" ludricous. Also, spontaneously risen vampires is far from unique to southeast asia, though it and the clanless do play a major role in undead society there.

                    Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                    About transcendence and the Antes being 4th gen+ you are giving me ideas , I use a hybrid system between Masquerade and Requiem were blood potency is a thing limited only by "generation" and the idea of Golconda is there although no as a buddist state of moral abrahamic superiority but as some kind of spiritual transformation that changes your relationship with the beast (Heck I replaced humanity with self control) so maybe I will end integrating this idea in my own way.
                    I did speak of "Transcedence" for a reason - finding enlightnement and a state of balance with the urges of the Beast not exactly makes one into an automatically nicer person.

                    *As an aside, in my old chronicles i would occasionally imply the ancient Brujah was Plato's ancestor - if the athenian tyrant or his grandfather that was a contemporary of Solon, both or neither - well that could vary with the chronicle and my own mood.
                    Last edited by Baaldam; 07-12-2018, 08:43 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                      About the antes being walking blood gods ,some of my antes can wreck a city with a lot of effort
                      That's a little place where i break from the rules and yet follow canon at the same time, weird as that may sound to you people, i guess.
                      Back in 1e Chicago by Night it's established that the destruction of the roman cities of Pompeii and Herculanum was causeed by Menele's crazy/frenzied misuse of elemental summoning. that prretty much set up my personal benchmark for a Thaumaturgy 7-8 ritual and the kind of even worse stuff one might expect from high-tier disciplines. As anyone reading the books can tell, most canon powers just don't compare.

                      That said, no nuking of antes or meethuselahs, because kindred just aren't kryptonians or sayajjin to be played that blunt and straightforward anyways.

                      Either way, it doesn't change much in my games - most canon NPCs stats are so lazily made, full of overblown generations and supposed elders (with no actual examples given), i "power down" 90% of them to 8-7th generations anyway. Yes, even Mithras and Baba Yaga, i'm evil like that.
                      Last edited by Baaldam; 07-12-2018, 10:28 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

                        That's a little place where i break from the rules and yet follow canon at the same time, weird as that may sound to you people, i guess.
                        Back in 1e Chicago by Night it's established that the destruction of the roman cities of Pompeii and Herculanum was causeed by Menele's crazy/frenzied misuse of elemental summoning. that prretty much set up my personal benchmark for a Thaumaturgy 7-8 ritual and the kind of even worse stuff one might expect from high-tier disciplines. As anyone reading the books can tell, most canon powers just don't compare.

                        That said, no nuking of antes or meethuselahs, because kindred just aren't kryptonians or sayajjin to be played that blunt and straightforward anyways.

                        Either way, it doesn't change much in my games - most canon NPCs stats are so lazily made, full of overblown generations and supposed elders (with no actual examples given), i "power down" 90% of them to 8-7th generations anyway. Yes, even Mithras and Baba Yaga, i'm evil like that.
                        Well to be fair the destruction was more due the fact that the spirit Meneleus invoked was the one of the Pompeii volcano than from his own power and he had to jump in the water to not die hoist by his own petard so I don´t think that Meneleus could reach that level of destruction without a volcano near and some prep time for the ritual.Still a great feat for one of my favourites methusaleah and the reason why I said I pictured in a realistic scale of power the top of what you can expect from an ante to be a city level with some effort.

                        About the stats being lazily made I will give you all the reason but I prefer to make my own stats instead of bringing the nerf hammer might to characters I like so much like Baba Yaga or Mithras.Other cuestion is the elders without stats who may even be weak by combat standards but they have a lot of servants blood bonded and use all his pawns with intelligence in the great game called jyhad an example of this is hardestald , the elder was far more weak than the younger if you look to the stats.But this is a personal preference.


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post

                          Well to be fair the destruction was more due the fact that the spirit Meneleus invoked was the one of the Pompeii volcano than from his own power and he had to jump in the water to not die hoist by his own petard so I don´t think that Meneleus could reach that level of destruction without a volcano near and some prep time for the ritual.Still a great feat for one of my favourites methusaleah and the reason why I said I pictured in a realistic scale of power the top of what you can expect from an ante to be a city level with some effort.
                          Yes, there's bunch of situational details involved - among them that the volcano might be a requirement, ritual effectiveness being the actual reason it was roused in the first place, etc.
                          Or, more dramatically/importantly, the fact Meneleus was described as in frenzy, what by RAW would make doing any ritual impossible. So one might interpret the cataclismic scale as blown out of proportion by way of botch - one of the reasons i said 7-8, instead of straight 7. The point is more giving a sense of scale than 100% mechanic precision, as one can guess.

                          Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                          About the stats being lazily made I will give you all the reason but I prefer to make my own stats instead of bringing the nerf hammer might to characters I like so much like Baba Yaga or Mithras.
                          That's the trick -- the nerf hammer is in part a lie. Dots & dice are dime-a-dozen, i can give them back with equipments, rites and a number of other resources. The point is that those NPCs weren't truly thought with their supposed power level. Vicissitude 7 with no actual custom powers is just Vicissitude 5 with a +2 dice bonus slapped in. They overall don't live up to their meta-hype, as their "great power" is utterly undefined in tone, scale or style. So i just slap a level 6 power - one of my elder powers, the ones just a tier below district or city-wide ruin - and job done.

                          Overall i would say my 7th gen Mithras scares players more than the usual one. Specially you now have to ask yourself what a real childe of a clan founder and not a millennia-old imposter/confidence man, would actually be capable of.

                          Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                          Other cuestion is the elders without stats who may even be weak by combat standards but they have a lot of servants blood bonded and use all his pawns with intelligence in the great game called jyhad an example of this is hardestald , the elder was far more weak than the younger if you look to the stats.But this is a personal preference.
                          To be honest, i very much prefer when they give those kind of NPCs, because style and characterization are much better tools for a ST to work with, fill the dots and extrapolate from than a messy morass of hashly thrown together inconsistent stats, as the former shows some thought and care was actually given, at least... No need for systems if one does things half-hearted and half-baked.
                          Last edited by Baaldam; 07-12-2018, 12:48 PM.

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                          • #28
                            [Beckett- I found this hymn on a basalt slab in a museum storeroom in Szeged, Hungary. It was written in Linear A script. Lacking a fluent speaker of the Late Minoan language the humans could not translate it. I, of course, have greater resources. It was discovered in 1928 on the seabed of the Strait of Messina while workers were laying a cable. It has been reliably dated from 2400bce to 2200 bce. I have enclosed a photograph and 3-dimensional scan of the artifact. Feel free to share this with Lucita since it seems to involve her clan most directly. -Aisling ]


                            Princess of Siroukousi climbed down jagged rocks
                            white dress turned pink gold under falling sun.

                            Bearing offers of horse blood and salt,
                            trident and herself aloft for purity from the sand.

                            Standing proud and demure along the surf,
                            white spittle and slimy chill clinging to her toes.

                            Stares into dark distant beneath red horizon,
                            raises englyphed, gold encirled arms and intones:

                            "Son of Cronus and Rhea, Asphaleios, Tavreios,
                            Basking in your cold, wet forever midnight court!"

                            "You struck Petraios from tiny crack came white steed
                            who rides upon your back and whinnies in your depths!"

                            "I beseech you, Epoptis of storms and raiser
                            of winds, which burst from your breast..."

                            "I have lost my brother, father, husband and son
                            across your vast, wine-dark expanse."

                            "Gone to fight a war in the lands to the East, What foul
                            wind detains? What horror molests? Where? Where?"

                            Seawaves rise and crash, lift and fall, throwing forward as
                            a lover in arms, maddened and thrashing against it.

                            The Princess strides fearless into tumult, fist raised,
                            offerings held high, gasping cries and thrown-back head.

                            "Return the men to me, for I must bear a child or die."
                            "Both be done unto you" bellows from the darkness below.

                            Shadows of leviathan writhe and swirl in the distance as
                            the deluge rises to engulf the calm princess.

                            "Give my city her men and take me in their stead!"
                            "Both be done unto you" bellows from the darkness below.

                            Grasping tentacles tug and pull her into the depths,
                            cold is felt warm as the seminal sea pours through her.

                            "Take me King of Depths, take me Prince of Tides"
                            "I am not he" bellows from the darkness below.

                            She struggles and tears at her dress, kicking and
                            reaching for the dancing moon hanging above the surface.

                            "Then what monster you, who molests a daughter of Po-se-da-wo-ne?"
                            "Daughter of the Wanaks? No, I thought you a mortal!"

                            "No matter, Princess of Drowned Hopes, for now my line is your line
                            I writhe in the corners of your sea. I hide in rocks and depths and

                            lurk in the souls of men who know not what depths there are.
                            I am cold and scaly, yet hot and virile. I am woman of priapus."

                            "But, your name! I deserve to know who twists my hair
                            and pushes upon my neck. Who interrupts my father's prayer..."

                            "You deserve nothing. Prideful daughter. I am a serpent, a storm,
                            mother of Echidna, wife of Phorcys. None may fight me who knows not my..."

                            "Name you I shall. I am not of this place, but of another.
                            On the pearl covered shores of my father we know of Κητώ!"

                            "Foul beastress of ocean depths and foul watery serpents.
                            I command you back under the rock you rolled over to arrive!"

                            "Ah, a learned child" and the sea turned warm and soft.
                            "So, you know my intent, that what bursts from chaos?"

                            I do, and I demand you return the men of my city, for
                            I must be with child or my household will surely die.

                            "Silly child. It is already done. So, I ride the smoky darkness
                            of the sea, as a swimming shadow in the corner of fishermen eyes.

                            Princess gasps and sputters on the shore, a vast black
                            miasmic shape flowing off-shore, away from the broken vessel.

                            She stands and sees the moon above the horizon as
                            wind is stilled and birds cease their cry in the darkness.

                            A silver apple gently falling into the wine-dark sea
                            Echoes of light dance on the now still and secretive surface.

                            It obscures all sight of that which waits below and behind.
                            None may see the darkness amid the darkness on a smooth surface.

                            Princess holds her stomach tightly and feels the warmth of death,
                            made of the coldness of life growing deeply and strongly within her.

                            She smiles that her plan has worked, and her father will be
                            disinherited. She will place her son high in the depths, indeed.

                            The Princess, called Mother of Shadows, climbs the rocks and prepares a nursery
                            for her prince. She washes his brow with blood and hides him from the day.

                            None may see him in reflection, nor know the chaos with which he shall
                            spawn many kingdoms. One after the other, like a flood in a valley.

                            She hushes the child and sings to him of his destiny,
                            to find the lost men, and kill them that he may rule this city.

                            He will summon chaos and bind it to his service as a man
                            may ride upon the back of a serpent or a shark, fearfully, yet brave

                            Then, in the final days, when the moon has surrendered to the blood
                            and the earth trembles beneath great roars, he shall usher in the chaos.

                            And through him, not for him, it shall allow him to reign over all whom
                            he sees, and feast upon the hearts' blood of those too weak to serve.

                            So was born the Lord of Shadows.




                            [Aisling- Thank you for that little ditty. Problem is, when sung aloud, in the Minoan, it's in Dactylic Hexameter, a form which didn't exist for another 1000 years. You've been duped old friend. -Beckett]

                            [Beckett- Thank you for ccing me Aisling's little poem. I'll file it alongside the poetry my housemaid's eleven-year-old daughter wrote about how sad rain is. It was hilarious, if an obvious fake. Thank you for making an old corpse laugh. -Angelique]

                            [Master Lazarus- I will begin searching for a safe means to contact this "Ceto" immediately. I am aware of a small circle of Chakravanti on Crete who may be able to help. -Angelique]

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