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  • Unstoppable tank problem?

    So one player has Warrior Setite character that have Potence, Presence, Serpentis, Fortitude and Auspex. He lacks Celerity but it doesn't matter as he has 6 Stamina with Blood Buff, 5 Fortitude and 5 armor rating. With Serpentis it brings him in melee fight a total of 16 soak dices (as Serpentis 3 does not work on magic, fire and sunlight). With Graze (and later Majesty even nerfed to 9 max difficulty from 10) + serpentis tongue with agg damage and potence auto successses he just walks past enemies while doing strength fears and ripping them apart (like striking through their skulls with serpentis tongue + drinking blood, ripping their arms off etc. with Potence).

    The problem I have is that 16 soak dices pretty much makes him immune to anything in melee or firearms. But giving every enemy flamethrowers is just generic at some point and vampire warlocks are rare enough so I can't just have every second enemy know Lure of Flames or something simillar. He is not stupid though and in case of magic user he uses firearms with incendiary ammo.

    I think I don't have to mention that lethal damage is nothing for him too, right?

    He even tanked through werewolf and killed him in legit 1v1 fight- 16 soak dices were really enough for claws while werewolf had only Fortitude 5 and well....silver weapon.... Seriously people say how strong werewolfs are but silver kills them so fast since they can't soak them at all... Especially with Potence in melee.

  • #2
    Let him go up against a Hentai Death Machine . He will eventually be wittled down while he won't be able to hurt the person.





    English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

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    • #3
      A good question: Is this character taking the armor 5 penalties? Three dice lost to most Dex pools is pretty painful and the character, as depicted, doesn't appear to be designed around that issue. As far as "Graze" is concerned, I hope you're speaking to one of the Gazes he has access to, either from Dread Gaze or the paralyzing gaze of Eyes of the Serpent. Either way, though, he can only act on one target at a time, which means... why isn't everyone else fleeing before him, getting Molotov cocktails and such, or just plain bigger firearms?

      Also on the paralyzing effect of Eyes of the Serpent: V20 (not Dark Ages) requires the Setite player to make a diff 9 Willpower roll to affect supernatural critters and if attacked, they may use a Willpower point to break it. Also, the target must actually be able to see to be affected, unlike the Dominate rules. So, blind masters and supernaturals can get through this power pretty easily overall.

      Finally, aggravated damage mitigates six whole points of the above listed soak, and fire realistically can destroy five more of it while also being aggravated. Crinos form werewolves can have an eight strength, +2 for claws, +successes after the first... and, oh, yeah, multiple attacks for using rage... I assume the Setite won initiative and killed the werewolf in one hit, because there's not many ways to survive that even in full riot gear for soak. Oh, and a final note, taken from the "Armor Chart" sidebar: "Attackers may make targeting rolls to hit unportected portions of a defender and thus ignore the armor (Storyteller assigns difficulty penalty - typically +1 or +2)."


      "At the risk of sounding like a murder hobo"

      Attributed to Nyrufa.

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      • #4
        Problem is, depending on how you rule with armor vs agg dmg he would still have Fort+Sta dice to soak claws from a werewolf at diff 5. Plus either full armor or half armor. So that would be 5+6+5 (or 2) dice against those claws.





        English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Cadmiumcadamium View Post
          Problem is, depending on how you rule with armor vs agg dmg he would still have Fort+Sta dice to soak claws from a werewolf at diff 5. Plus either full armor or half armor. So that would be 5+6+5 (or 2) dice against those claws.

          We rule that armor protects from claws, as claws are supernatural only vs supernatural. Vs mortals it's just lethal damage. For armor it's just claws. It's vampire flesh that "reacts" that way with supernatural claws. So armor does indeed protect vs claws, bites and melee weapons, while not giving protection vs fire, sunlight or magic.

          So even if werewolf have multi attacks player has 16 total dices of difficulty 5 which grants him on average 8-10 successes to soak.

          As for penalty from armor - spending blood to buff stat according to V20 is reflexive action so there is no problem boosting that Dex in one turn by 2 points or 3, especially with Auspex just before fight starts.

          I know that molotovs and flamethrowers and Lure of Flames Tremere will be good counter to him, but it would be just overkill for the rest of party. It's not that I don't know how to counter him if needed - I just sent Tremer with Mastery of Mortal Shell + Path of Blood and paralyze him and suck his blood to 0 and left him almost in torpor.

          Thing is things like that suppose to be "rare and memorable" encounters, not regular ones. But I have problems with regular fights, because he simply tanks through it.

          I think Serpentis 3 is little bit too good...

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          • #6
            If I were this character's enemy, I would be smart about it. No doubt does he have a reputation as an unstoppable badass monstrosity. So don't fight him on that arena. There are a bunch of other arenas where he seems rather helpless:

            Use the day: send hunters, ghouls, animals or dominated servants to attack him during daysleep.

            Use politics: gather allies and resources. Create a coterie dedicated to the destruction of this threat to us all.

            Use mental powers: any malkavian worth his salt, and with higher Obfuscate than his Auspex, could wreak absolute HAVOC on this dude.

            Use magic: as you said, not everyone has magic. But most know someone who does. Hire someone to hex him to oblivion.

            Use hostages: he has to care about someone or something. Find it, threaten it, and render him harmless.

            Don't show up for the fight: like the hentai death machine above, landmines, car bombs, drones, quietus poison... There are lots of ways to inflict harm without being there for the counterattack.


            Furthermore, I believe Carthage should be destroyed.

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            • #7
              16 soak dices mean 8 average successes of soak...I've seen many vampire builds that can do average damage in the 10s from the get go. Maybe your antagonists just need more Potence, and use Celerity for the extra dextrety dice rather than multiple actions. Use surprise attacks so he get's aggravated damage before using Serpentis 3 (a favorite of Urban Gangrels with Obfuscation)

              And yes, Serpentis 3 it's quite potent.

              But then, maybe you're taking the wrong angle here: If a player makes a super warrior, then he wants to be good at fighting. Thus it's fitting that only memorable encounters should be able to put up with him: Heck, they would end being memorable just 'cause of that!.

              Let your player have fun, and also make treaths that can be dealt better with the skills and powers of the other players (i.e, if someone it's good at research, make hidden enemies that you need to discover first and attack latter).

              On the other hand, if all players are warrior types and the problem it's that the Setite it's just a lot better...the other players may need either a power up or the chance to diversify. Maybe you can drop them a little candy, like the chance to earn a potent multi-discipline power or something like that.
              Last edited by Aleph; 07-05-2018, 10:41 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Viben View Post


                We rule that armor protects from claws, as claws are supernatural only vs supernatural. Vs mortals it's just lethal damage. For armor it's just claws. It's vampire flesh that "reacts" that way with supernatural claws. So armor does indeed protect vs claws, bites and melee weapons, while not giving protection vs fire, sunlight or magic.

                So even if werewolf have multi attacks player has 16 total dices of difficulty 5 which grants him on average 8-10 successes to soak.
                You read the part in the Fortitude description in which agg damage is not soakable by Stamina, right? V20, page 158, the "System" paragraph.


                "At the risk of sounding like a murder hobo"

                Attributed to Nyrufa.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Inertial Frame View Post
                  You read the part in the Fortitude description in which agg damage is not soakable by Stamina, right? V20, page 158, the "System" paragraph.
                  Note the usage of Serpentis 3. Serpentis 3 essentially makes it so you *can* soak Agg with Stamina, except for "Fire, Sunlight and other supernatural energies". Claws and fangs are even explicitely mentioned as being soakable with Stamina on usage.

                  It's essentially the killer discipline that makes this tank so special.
                  Last edited by Ambrosia; 07-05-2018, 11:05 AM.


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
                    Note the usage of Serpentis 3. Serpentis 3 essentially makes it so you *can* soak Agg with Stamina, except for "Fire, Sunlight and other supernatural energies". Claws and fangs are even explicitely mentioned as being soakable with Stamina on usage.
                    Dammit, and I recently had a Follower of Set.


                    "At the risk of sounding like a murder hobo"

                    Attributed to Nyrufa.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Viben View Post
                      He even tanked through werewolf and killed him in legit 1v1 fight- 16 soak dices were really enough for claws while werewolf had only Fortitude 5 and well....silver weapon.... Seriously people say how strong werewolfs are but silver kills them so fast since they can't soak them at all... Especially with Potence in melee.
                      I take it you're using Vampire's rules for werewolves? Because in the actual Werewolf, werewolves do have abilities that boost their soak further and work against silver too.

                      serpentis tongue with agg damage and potence auto successses
                      I assume you know Potence has been downgraded to usually only provide dice and hand out auto-successes only when you spend a blood point?

                      and 5 armor rating
                      Where do you play? Depending on the setting, 5 armor is extremely conspicuous. Either he lugs it around all the time, which may well alert cops that someone is planning a private war, or he needs time to don it.

                      I think the most useful thing enemies might do in that scenario (if they know him) is to troll the Setite. Have him think there's a big confrontation coming up, then just run and hide - and suddenly, he's spent five or so blood and a WP on pumping up for a fight that never happens. Wait a scene, repeat. The third time, he'll be very wary of spending too much blood before stuff actually goes down and thus needs to actually activate some of his buffs while combat is already underway.

                      That said, it sounds like he's made fairly heavy investments to get where he is (you mentioned 5 disciplines, several of which seem to be pretty high rank), so I agree with Aleph: Maybe normal combat just shouldn't be something that challenges him anymore. Just assume most fights won't be a significant hindrance to the characters and be happy they don't take away too much table time from the story. Perhaps the more important thing is: Is there a second character with a combat focus who now feels overshadowed?

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                      • #12
                        Drain and dry. Fortitude doesn't protect from a vampire or multiple ones latching on and draining his blood pool.

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                        • #13
                          He obviously spent a lot of time building himself into the team-tank, so let him be the team-tank. I'm opposed to creating situations that utterly negate a role a player clearly enjoys. Just make the game fairly political so that the Team Tank doesn't hog the spotlight from players with other specialties. Let everyone have fun.

                          Speaking as someone who has largely stopped playing WOW precisely because classes I've enjoyed got hit with the nerf-bat too many times, lay off the nerf-bat if you don't want your players to get depressed and frustrated.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                            Perhaps the more important thing is: Is there a second character with a combat focus who now feels overshadowed?
                            This is generally the biggest problem IME with these things.

                            If I'm the ST, I can always make something that can take a 16 dice, 5 diff, Soak machine (esp. if werewolves or mages using their own rules are on the table) down, or just avoid them. But such NPCs have a nasty tendency to devastate let optimized PCs. If it's just one combat heavy PC, it's not that hard to deal with in many ways as noted above. If another PC wants to get in on the combat fun, or the non-combat PCs are getting dragged into the fight... then a lot of those methods don't work as well.

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                            • #15
                              Please don't spam post. Darksider
                              Last edited by Darksider; 07-06-2018, 10:58 PM.

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