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  • #46
    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
    Rather than try to beat the tank, I would suggest them to improve the combos they already have: Extreme damage very fast can be quite OP - get some way to do Aggravated on top of that and you're set (I think that there is an Anarch Discipline that combines Celerity and Potence to cause aggravated with your punches. Maybe your monk would like to look at it?. It seems like the kind of power he would want to learn).
    That combination discipline is Burning Wrath, page 49 of Lore of the Clans, in (appropriately) the Brujah write-up.


    "At the risk of sounding like a murder hobo"

    Attributed to Nyrufa.

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    • #47
      Don't have any books on hand so lets see how I would take this guy down

      Brujah/Gangrel/Nossie generation doesn't matter.
      Equipment. Remote control flood lights, flashbangs, and/or high wattage strobe lights. Fire bombs, flare guns and industrial strength steel cable ( Preference goes to the ones used as moor lines)
      Disciplines. Potence and celerity needed for at level 3+. Obuscafe and Protean would be nice

      Blind the Warrior and watch as he is unable to move or find his target. Hit him close with the flare gun and watch him fear the SUN!!. Use the cable to tie the armor joints down. Hide. Rince and repeat till he is dead or unable to move.

      Your Unstoppable Tank now can't move and his assassin can just drag his ass out to met the sun

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      • #48
        The werewolf wasn't properly run. And I don't mean not Using W:TA rules. The rules right out of v20 say they soak agg even Silver readily with their Stamina, it also says they DOUBLE all their attributes in Beast-man form, so you have So they should be having a soak of about 8 and adding Fortitude equivalent on top of that is one of the suggested so NPCs werewolves with soak of 15 for everything is not outside the pure V20 rules. More if you had werewolf armor.

        This is not counting Dex 6-10 before abilities to hit/dodge, 3 auto actions at minimum. WIth the armor he's wearing He'd be lucky to EVER hit the werewolf much less have it soak.

        They are also given access to Potence equivalently via purely v20, so anything but the rawest pup werewolf should have more stats than him in soaking, dodging and hitting.

        You also can explicitly add other discipline effect, but the raw "They get skin of the adder for free and double stats" should make them scary.

        So werewolf spend a willpower to act for one round to break his Majesty and it should hurt since its probably going first.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Lian View Post
          The werewolf wasn't properly run. And I don't mean not Using W:TA rules. The rules right out of v20 say they soak agg even Silver readily with their Stamina, it also says they DOUBLE all their attributes in Beast-man form, so you have So they should be having a soak of about 8 and adding Fortitude equivalent on top of that is one of the suggested so NPCs werewolves with soak of 15 for everything is not outside the pure V20 rules. More if you had werewolf armor.

          This is not counting Dex 6-10 before abilities to hit/dodge, 3 auto actions at minimum. WIth the armor he's wearing He'd be lucky to EVER hit the werewolf much less have it soak.

          They are also given access to Potence equivalently via purely v20, so anything but the rawest pup werewolf should have more stats than him in soaking, dodging and hitting.

          You also can explicitly add other discipline effect, but the raw "They get skin of the adder for free and double stats" should make them scary.

          So werewolf spend a willpower to act for one round to break his Majesty and it should hurt since its probably going first.

          Quoting V20:

          "Wolfsbane avails nothing against the Lupines,
          though silver is indeed their downfall. Werewolves
          cannot soak damage from silver weapons, and cannot
          regenerate such wounds as quickly as those from normal
          weapons
          ."

          So it was correct according to V20 rules. Also there is always that one thing in RPG- dices. He just straight up beat me in dices by huge margin. You can release even biggest Gaoru badass on player- in the end- luck will decide. Werewolf didn't even last 2 turns (Veteran Lupine from V20 corebook). It's all about dices in the end

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Viben View Post


            Quoting V20:

            "Wolfsbane avails nothing against the Lupines,
            though silver is indeed their downfall. Werewolves
            cannot soak damage from silver weapons, and cannot
            regenerate such wounds as quickly as those from normal
            weapons
            ."

            So it was correct according to V20 rules. Also there is always that one thing in RPG- dices. He just straight up beat me in dices by huge margin. You can release even biggest Gaoru badass on player- in the end- luck will decide. Werewolf didn't even last 2 turns (Veteran Lupine from V20 corebook). It's all about dices in the end

            NO IT ISN'T

            NPCs aren't just cannon fodder/ idiots. There going to plan and think, they hunt and prep. This guy you describe is joke to take out.

            Brujah with Potence and Celerity 3 with fire bombs, strobe lights and mooring steel cable. Your unstoppable tank is meeting the sun
            Toreador with Auspex 2 and Celerity, rifle able to fire HEIAP. Dead before he even hears the gunshot.
            Ventrue/ Presence only or Dominate only, enjoy having your free will stripped way
            Tremere Movement of the Mind at level that would pick him up toss into bonfire

            Quit thinking this is dice pool vs dice pool. This is roleplaying game not rollplaying game. Let your NPCs think and see how many different ways this armoured tank can be stopped with next to no effort

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            • #51
              The problem it's not to kill the character, though, but to make so the other two warriors can catch up with him.

              Fire bombs may harm the tank, but they're going to ash the glass cannons. The Toreador it's interesting if it can be dodged and detected by the other two. The Ventrue it's reasonable, he can't just Dominate everyone in a single turn. Running away from Dominated Tank should be easy with high levels of Celerity. OP has already done Tremere, doesn't want to overuse them.

              The goal here, I think, it's to uplift the Toreador and the Brujah. To make chalenges where their powers can shine. Not to punish the Setite.

              Still, I agree in that this isn't a matter of dice but of tactics.
              Last edited by Aleph; 07-06-2018, 02:12 PM.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                The problem it's not to kill the character, though, but to make so the other two warriors can catch up with him.

                Fire bombs may harm the tank, but they're going to ash the glass cannons. The Toreador it's interesting if it can be dodged and detected by the other two. The Ventrue it's reasonable, he can't just Dominate everyone in a single turn. Running away from Dominated Tank should be easy with high levels of Celerity. OP has already done Tremere, doesn't want to overuse them.

                The goal here, I think, it's to uplift the Toreador and the Brujah. To make chalenges where their powers can shine. Not to punish the Setite.

                Still, I agree in that this isn't a matter of dice but of tactics.

                Okay send in Brujah with steel cable used to moor boats. This can take several thousand pounds and can't be easily cut even with tools. Slow moving lumbering tank will just end up hog tied by the Brujah and will need assistance from his faster friends to get him out.

                Or even Ravnos with this thing called strobe lights can became this Warrior's nightmare

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Viben View Post


                  Quoting V20:

                  "Wolfsbane avails nothing against the Lupines,
                  though silver is indeed their downfall. Werewolves
                  cannot soak damage from silver weapons, and cannot
                  regenerate such wounds as quickly as those from normal
                  weapons
                  ."

                  So it was correct according to V20 rules. Also there is always that one thing in RPG- dices. He just straight up beat me in dices by huge margin. You can release even biggest Gaoru badass on player- in the end- luck will decide. Werewolf didn't even last 2 turns (Veteran Lupine from V20 corebook). It's all about dices in the end
                  Quoting v20:

                  Lupines heal incredibly rapidly, regenerating a
                  health level each turn. Only fire, silver, or the teeth
                  and claws of other supernatural creatures (such as a
                  vampire’s fangs) can cause lasting injuries to a werewolf
                  — and a werewolf can even heal these wounds
                  as a normal human can. Worse, werewolves can soak
                  such damage with ease. Consider all damage — bashing,
                  lethal, and aggravated — to be soakable with the
                  werewolf’s normal Stamina.
                  However, because they are
                  living beings, werewolves do not halve bashing damage
                  applied to them, as the undead do.

                  But ignoring the book actively contradicts itself on soak and you have a soak monster so why not give him a run for his money..


                  It can be entirely about the dice, but its ALOT OF Luck assuming its run by the books.

                  Intiative: He has 12+ dice roll while werewolf has 14.. I mean this assuming Armor penalities don't count here... assuming that he's 9 vs 14.. still one die can be very swingy.

                  To hit he has lets assume maximum cheese 5 natural dex, 2 from blood buff, Melee 5.- armor penalty of 3. so 5+2+5-3 or 9. The Lupine has to dodge straight from the wirte up: 6 from Dex. 2 from athletics, 4 from Celerity. so 12. This is assuming Soak Monster Settite doesn't plan to dodge or parry. Assuming he wants to AT LEAST try to do something against those 4 celeritish actions coming he's getting MUCH fewer dice..

                  Now the lupine has 4 in brawl vs 2 in athletics so its attack to hit him is 14. Since he put all his dicepool on attacking since he had to hit, and werewolves don't take wound penalties so this doesn't matter, his dice pool vs the soak will be 14+8+1+2(possibly autodamage) agg. 25 is a much bigger number than 16, and its coming at him at least 3 times in that round.

                  The Dice were INDEED very kind to him.

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                  • #54
                    Many people in this thread have offered ideas for "you can do this to do bypass defenses" or "you can increase your dice pool like this", but that's not the issue with this character. The issue is that he makes other players feel unnecessary and overshadowed.

                    If I worked hard, spent all my XP, and built a tanky superman, I would hate my ST if he just took it away from me or rendered it useless. Let the player live out their fantasy. The storyteller should never be antagonistic towards the players, but it seems like that's what many in this thread are suggesting. And it's killing me.

                    Don't worry about what the tank can do, or how much damage they can soak. Focus on the other players. Make a story using people from their backstory. Involve their clans in political conflict. Make it personal. It doesn't matter who rolls the most dice: what matters is the story.


                    Furthermore, I believe Carthage should be destroyed.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by pang4 View Post
                      Many people in this thread have offered ideas for "you can do this to do bypass defenses" or "you can increase your dice pool like this", but that's not the issue with this character. The issue is that he makes other players feel unnecessary and overshadowed.

                      If I worked hard, spent all my XP, and built a tanky superman, I would hate my ST if he just took it away from me or rendered it useless. Let the player live out their fantasy. The storyteller should never be antagonistic towards the players, but it seems like that's what many in this thread are suggesting. And it's killing me.

                      Don't worry about what the tank can do, or how much damage they can soak. Focus on the other players. Make a story using people from their backstory. Involve their clans in political conflict. Make it personal. It doesn't matter who rolls the most dice: what matters is the story.
                      Yeah, that.

                      If the problem it's to make balanced encounters when the party itself it's unbalanced, which seems to be the case, then the solution it's to change how balance works out. Focus on how to make the others effective.

                      However, I want to stress this point:

                      Originally posted by Viben
                      Both didn't make "builds" really, they just went with flow and later they realized how important is Fortitude in V:TM. Wareador wanted to be "fast one" and Brujah wanted to be "monk one" (strong mind, strong fists).Both work well, but Settite is just better in what they do. Wareador at least was smart enough to invest in Auspex, while Brujah not, so he was already in torpor twice because of Obfuscate.
                      Sorry, but this may be the first time I've heard about how important is Fortitude in V:TM...!

                      But that's not what I want to talk about:

                      Fortitude, Auspex...these are important because you're making them important. It's all about tactics here, not the tactics of the players, but the tactics you imagine the characters on the world like to use: They use Obfuscate a lot and sudenly Auspex it's essential. Focus on enemies who do Aggravated OR massive damage (like Werewolves) and Fortitude becomes important. Fire wizards? - Fortitude again.
                      In this thread a lot of tactics that go past these Disciplines were suggested...and this is important: Not to kill the Setite's fun, but because it shows that there's other realistic tactics that villans could use that aren't so influenced by these Disciplines

                      What worries me it's that if characters try to get Fortitude for they characters because they believe they need that to survive...they would always be left behind. The tank it's build arround Fortitude, you just won't get there without lots of px. To compete with someone who has such a huge head start it's sure to be unfun.
                      Last edited by Aleph; 07-06-2018, 03:35 PM.

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                      • #56
                        Crazy idea here, but hear me out.

                        It seems like you have at least 2 players that are not having fun. And it seems like your game is very combat heavy...which is unusual for non-Sabbat game but a valid gamestyle if everyone is having fun.

                        Maybe at the next session, instead of playing, have a "meta"-session with them, ask for their honest opinion, involve them in finding a solution for everyone to have fun and enjoy the game.

                        And if it's utterly unrecoverable and no fun to the bulk of them, reboot the game, les en from the experience and the suggestion made here to offer something different.
                        Last edited by Boneguard; 07-10-2018, 01:00 PM.


                        Project consolidation:
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                        In redaction: Lasombra Bloodline

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Lian View Post

                          Quoting v20:

                          Lupines heal incredibly rapidly, regenerating a
                          health level each turn. Only fire, silver, or the teeth
                          and claws of other supernatural creatures (such as a
                          vampire’s fangs) can cause lasting injuries to a werewolf
                          — and a werewolf can even heal these wounds
                          as a normal human can. Worse, werewolves can soak
                          such damage with ease. Consider all damage — bashing,
                          lethal, and aggravated — to be soakable with the
                          werewolf’s normal Stamina.
                          However, because they are
                          living beings, werewolves do not halve bashing damage
                          applied to them, as the undead do.

                          But ignoring the book actively contradicts itself on soak and you have a soak monster so why not give him a run for his money..


                          It can be entirely about the dice, but its ALOT OF Luck assuming its run by the books.

                          Intiative: He has 12+ dice roll while werewolf has 14.. I mean this assuming Armor penalities don't count here... assuming that he's 9 vs 14.. still one die can be very swingy.

                          To hit he has lets assume maximum cheese 5 natural dex, 2 from blood buff, Melee 5.- armor penalty of 3. so 5+2+5-3 or 9. The Lupine has to dodge straight from the wirte up: 6 from Dex. 2 from athletics, 4 from Celerity. so 12. This is assuming Soak Monster Settite doesn't plan to dodge or parry. Assuming he wants to AT LEAST try to do something against those 4 celeritish actions coming he's getting MUCH fewer dice..

                          Now the lupine has 4 in brawl vs 2 in athletics so its attack to hit him is 14. Since he put all his dicepool on attacking since he had to hit, and werewolves don't take wound penalties so this doesn't matter, his dice pool vs the soak will be 14+8+1+2(possibly autodamage) agg. 25 is a much bigger number than 16, and its coming at him at least 3 times in that round.

                          The Dice were INDEED very kind to him.
                          But if werewolf wants to doge, he has to split his dices and according to V20 rules you can't split Celerity actions, so he has to either attack on full or split dices to be able to dogde/defend while he attacks. Werewolfs are strong, but they are under same rules in case of action as Kindred. And each seperate attack is vs full soak dices. So with STR 10 of werewolf (double STR 5 in frenzy) +1 from claws +5 potence it's still 16 strength dices of diff 6 vs 16 dices of soak diff 5- it will just come to dices here, and well- he had better rolls, simple as that.

                          And yes, Dices were kind to him and not kind to me- magic of RPG games, nothing else to say here. I have seen in my 20 years of RPGing people who had straight 3-5 ciritcal failrues in row, people who had 6 10s rolls in Warhammer in the row and many more.

                          In the end- dice decides in paper RPG games
                          Last edited by Viben; 07-06-2018, 04:20 PM.

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                          • #58
                            Tremere with path of blood 4 can decimate regardless of their defense. It's pretty bad. I honestly don't know many ways to counter being drained in combat.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Viben View Post

                              But if werewolf wants to doge, he has to split his dices and according to V20 rules you can't split Celerity actions, so he has to either attack on full or split dices to be able to dogde/defend while he attacks. Werewolfs are strong, but they are under same rules in case of action as Kindred.
                              Erm...no. That's not how Celerity works at all. I'm certain you're reading something wrong here:

                              Celerity constitutes fully independant physical actions. You can totally dedicate one to dodge and other to attack. You aren't "splitting" anything here, you're using two different actions for two different things that require one action each.

                              More so, you can divide your "normal" (not given by Celerity) action as much as you want even while activating Celerity (as it's not a "Celerity action")

                              So, you can divide your "normal action" into attack and dodge, and then do 4 Celerity attacks. Or to Attack, then use 1 Celerity action to dodge (probably the best choice since you want to surpass soak here), then do other 3 attacks - of course, then you won't get the passive bonus to Dextrety (that would be useful to surpass soak), so you may preffer to do 1 action to attack, another to defend, and +3 to Dextrety.

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                              • #60
                                A Lupine in Vtm should have the same option as a vampire when it comes to celerity, that is either extra dice or extra actions. I would go with extra actions. 1 action to dodge the setites attack and the rest to thrash him.





                                English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

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