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V5 General Discussion: Let's Keep It Civil This Time

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  • Originally posted by IanWatson View Post
    For those interested, a bunch of the V5 symbols are available on the Unofficial WW Wiki, as part of the symbols project I have in collaboration with Mr Gone .

    https://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Vam...uerade_symbols

    - V5 ankh
    - Camarilla ankh
    - New clan symbols for Brujah, Gangrel, Malkavian, Nosferatu, Toreador, Tremere, Ventrue
    - (Also the Anarch ankh, but it's lower res for the moment)

    Also the new round WoD logo: https://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Wor...rkness_symbols
    Ah nice! Some of those are pretty cool.


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    • I think you can make Generation and Blood Potency work. The problem from what I've seen of reviews of V5, is that it's pretty much the worst option: mash them together. Attempts to have both work always seem to be best when each deals with specific functions. In pre-V5 it was simple to do something like Generation handles maximum traits, and resistance to mental powers, while Potency would cover vitae/turn and blood pool size (not that everyone would like that particular divide, it's just an example).

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      • Originally posted by Mr Gone View Post

        Ah nice! Some of those are pretty cool.

        I really like the Ventrue one; it draws out their Roman history, and also implies they're not fucking around anymore.

        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        I think you can make Generation and Blood Potency work. The problem from what I've seen of reviews of V5, is that it's pretty much the worst option: mash them together. Attempts to have both work always seem to be best when each deals with specific functions. In pre-V5 it was simple to do something like Generation handles maximum traits, and resistance to mental powers, while Potency would cover vitae/turn and blood pool size (not that everyone would like that particular divide, it's just an example).
        From what was spoiled, that's esentially how it works.
        Gen affects your starting and maximum Blood Potency.
        Blood Potency affects how much you heal when you heal, how much bonus dice you get from a blood buff, how much Discipline dice bonus you have, and your feeding restrictions. The way they did it (higher BPs just give more bonus dice when rousing, or heal more damage when rousing; like 1 healing vs. 3 healing, for example). I feel like that's a pretty elegant replacement of 'I can spend 5 blood a round'.

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        • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
          I think you can make Generation and Blood Potency work. The problem from what I've seen of reviews of V5, is that it's pretty much the worst option: mash them together. Attempts to have both work always seem to be best when each deals with specific functions. In pre-V5 it was simple to do something like Generation handles maximum traits, and resistance to mental powers, while Potency would cover vitae/turn and blood pool size (not that everyone would like that particular divide, it's just an example).
          Personally, I've always had this idea I wanted to play with where a lot of Kindred probably lie about their pedigrees and Generation for power. Back when traveling to a neighboring country could be enough to reinvent yourself as a person, especially before the Sects formed, it might have been a good way to grab territory and gain status. And once you find out only one other Kindred in the area was around in ancient Rome - well, hey, I was there, too! I was just in the southern part of the empire, so we never ran across each other, yeah.

          If I wanted to reconcile Generation and Blood Potency, I'd probably turn Generation into a character-creation-only Merit that allows you to, say, decrease the experience cost for raising Blood Potency during gameplay or something similar. That would retain the aspect of Blood Potency that controls maximum traits, which I like. A methuselah who's been snoozing for 1,000 years should not be more powerful than an ancilla who's spent the past few decades in a Rocky Balboa training montage against werewolves, but they might be able to get back on that bicycle without as much difficulty.

          In terms of lore, though, it would still be important to allow a setting that's functionally the same as pre-V5, with vampires who have been around a long time and remember many things. Hardly any Requiem vampires know what's going on or have any long-standing ties to each other; it's too flexible for VtM metaplot. For that, I would tweak the mechanics like this: The higher your Blood Potency, the harder it is to stay awake. After a certain amount of time (say, BP 5), you have to start rolling every so often to avoid torpor, with penalties the higher your BP gets. You get bonuses on the roll for higher Humanity (either Breaking Points-style or classic) or penalties for lower Humanity. Once you fall into torpor, you also have to make a roll with those bonuses and/or penalties to avoid losing memories once you wake up, with the oldest memories going first. This would give the added benefit of motivating older, more powerful Kindred to try to maintain their Humanity.

          Just a rough idea.


          Comment


          • So, on the new symbols...

            Anarchs: looks stupid as shit. My first impression, and this might just be because I was just seeing a comment from Mr. Gone about how dull the character sheet is, was this was their way of giving fans the middle finger by putting some of the old border into the symbol, but ya, the LGBTQ thing is also pretty,.... obvious.

            Brujah: meh. Ok, didn't need to be broken in the first place.

            Gangrel: literally looks like a 5 year old tried to draw it in crayon, (and because they where forced to, but wanted to do something else).

            Malkavian: So, a shitty dream catcher? I guess it makes sense, but the mirror was, in my opinion a much better symbol.

            Nosferatu: Ok. Not bad. I really don't know which one I prefere here. Both are nice in different ways.

            Toreador: I do like the slightly more thorny look, but wish it had been added to the original. Might just be the specific picture, but I like the slightly more angled rose and stem.

            Tremere: the one I probably care least about, personally, but I don't like it. It just feels wrong.

            Ventrue: Nah. Not sure if the intent is to invoke Russian or Egyptian here, but neither are probably a great idea.


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            • Originally posted by Chesh View Post


              If I wanted to reconcile Generation and Blood Potency, I'd probably turn Generation into a character-creation-only Merit that allows you to, say, decrease the experience cost for raising Blood Potency during gameplay or something similar. That would retain the aspect of Blood Potency that controls maximum traits, which I like. A methuselah who's been snoozing for 1,000 years should not be more powerful than an ancilla who's spent the past few decades in a Rocky Balboa training montage against werewolves, but they might be able to get back on that bicycle without as much difficulty.
              I thought up something like that once. Essentially, made Blood Potency have the effects of Generation, but generation decreasing the cost of raising Blood Potency. Maybe it decreased disipline costs as well, I'm not sure.

              Basicaly, I like the idea of generation being a big advantage, that's an important part of the setting, but age and overall experience should matter more, IMO.

              I wouldn't stress the want to go to torpor and fog of ages things though. VtM needs elders to be around and up and active, in my eyes.


              If nothing worked, then let's think!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                So, on the new symbols...

                Brujah: meh. Ok, didn't need to be broken in the first place.
                I liked that it was broken and rugged. Had a nice symbolism to it and looked cooler, IMO.


                Gangrel: literally looks like a 5 year old tried to draw it in crayon, (and because they where forced to, but wanted to do something else).
                To be fair, it resembles a wolf more than the original. Wolves have longer nose. It's still looks like Will-E-Coyote after a rough night and before coffee to me.


                Malkavian: So, a shitty dream catcher? I guess it makes sense, but the mirror was, in my opinion a much better symbol.
                Agree, the old mirror was better.


                Nosferatu: Ok. Not bad. I really don't know which one I prefere here. Both are nice in different ways.
                I like the old one more. Somehow more dramatic.


                Toreador: I do like the slightly more thorny look, but wish it had been added to the original. Might just be the specific picture, but I like the slightly more angled rose and stem.
                Agree. I just liked that it had the whole rose. The new one looks like a zoom-in at first glance.


                Tremere: the one I probably care least about, personally, but I don't like it. It just feels wrong.
                Agree. Also too much going on.


                Ventrue: Nah. Not sure if the intent is to invoke Russian or Egyptian here, but neither are probably a great idea.
                Dunno, I guess the intent was to suggest they are ruling by force as well as entitlement. Dunno, the scepter only was nice and evocative, this feels like every other faction emblem from an MMO with the crossed implements.



                If nothing worked, then let's think!

                Comment


                • Ideally, I would keep Genetation as it has always been, and have Blood Potency/Age be a slight advantage that might help off-set the inbalace a bit. Potency might allow you to act in some ways as if a Generation or two lower, but doesn't carry over at all to Childer/Ghouls. Potency might also even work a bit more as a spectrum, from -5 to 5, so lower Gen ancients that have been in Torpor for very long periods might act as if a few Generations high for having a negative (or low) Blood Potency, but would still Embrace Childer at their true Generation, even if some other stats might be temporarily unavailable in the weakened state following long Torpor.


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                  • Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                    I liked that it was broken and rugged. Had a nice symbolism to it and looked cooler, IMO.
                    I meant it as a play on the phrase "Don't try to fix what wasn't broken".


                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                      Mostly, it feels like a different game, not the new iteration of the game I love
                      I think that is the best box to put all my issues into


                      Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                      "Nosferatu: Ok. Not bad. I really don't know which one I prefere here. Both are nice in different ways."
                      I like the old one more. Somehow more dramatic.
                      The new one makes me think of "The Mask" movie/comics.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                        To be fair, it resembles a wolf more than the original. Wolves have longer nose. It's still looks like Will-E-Coyote after a rough night and before coffee to me. .
                        So, I like that the wolf's tilted more to show it howling as opposed to the more heraldic style of the original, but otherwise it really does look like a child's drawing of a big bad wolf under the bed to me.


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                        • Originally posted by thebiglarpnerd View Post
                          I really like the Ventrue one; it draws out their Roman history, and also implies they're not fucking around anymore.
                          The problem is, in terms of the historic symbols they're drawing from, it makes no sense. All the old school Ventrue that studied heraldry would look at it and stake whoever proposed it as a symbol of their Clan. It's something that might work out-of-character, but makes no sense in-character.

                          In European symbolism, you wouldn't cross the sword and the scepter. Kings were depicted with one in each hand, offering the mercy and wisdom of their divine right to rule (scepter) with one hand, and the power of their material might with the other (the sword).

                          There is a specific Roman derived European symbol that plays better for this: the fasces (origin of the word fascism and all). The fasces is pretty much the perfect symbol for the Ventrue in meaning, and is frequently paired with swords when used in a military context. The only reason to not switch to the fasces is because the scepter is what was already there, and for some reason the didn't decide to do a sword in parallel with it instead of crossed.

                          Gen affects your starting and maximum Blood Potency.
                          That right there is the problem. The whole point of adding Blood Potency to VtM, is to allow older members of the higher Generations get some supernatural legs up on younger lower Generation vampires.

                          As it stands, a high generation vampire in V5 can never achieve more BP than some of the lower generations start with. This removes the whole point. It just adds a bit of variation within each generation and a bit of line blurring between one or town generation removed vampires.

                          Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                          Malkavian: So, a shitty dream catcher? I guess it makes sense, but the mirror was, in my opinion a much better symbol.
                          Odd, because I find the new one much more obviously a mirror than the old one. When have you ever seen a hand-mirror with two spikes coming off the sides? The new one's much more obviously a hand-mirror in design, even if they over did the cracks.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                            That right there is the problem. The whole point of adding Blood Potency to VtM, is to allow older members of the higher Generations get some supernatural legs up on younger lower Generation vampires.

                            As it stands, a high generation vampire in V5 can never achieve more BP than some of the lower generations start with. This removes the whole point. It just adds a bit of variation within each generation and a bit of line blurring between one or town generation removed vampires.
                            If I remember correctly from other people's posts; Gen 10 + all start with the same level of blood potency, then some get better at character creation if they have a better Generation, but still within the scope of what weak blood elders could have got to or past due to age improving BP. (Within the limit of their Max from Gen)

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                            • I think Generation is a huge issue. In V20, it gives you a huge advantage at very low costs, and that it cannot be gained later in play except through Diablerie which in turn has very high costs (including finding a suitable victim and point in time). Thus, any player with at least a bit of experience kept trying to buy single-digit generations at character creation. I've seen lots of house-rules surrounding the issue as it tended to create a power gap between player characters almost immediately if played RAW. From increasing the costs of Generation, to establishing Sires and thus handing out Generation by ST-fiat, to my own house-rule of "double-digit Generations only", which BTW turned out to be the most elegant solution.

                              On the other hand, you cannot remove Generation from the game entirely, because that would really be a huge change to the established setting and canon. At least I would understand the immediate and probably loud outcry by the fan community, if WWE had gone down that road.

                              So finding a way to de-emphasize Generation (RAW: all characters start off in the same Generation) and using a mechanic like Blood Potency that relies on Age is a good step forward. Of course, there are many ways how they could have implemented this, but in the end they went with: Generation determines the corridor your Blood Potency falls in (min and max), while Blood Potency provides everything else. Which is fine I guess, but of course there would have been other ways of handling this.

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                              • Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post
                                I think Generation is a huge issue. In V20, it gives you a huge advantage at very low costs, and that it cannot be gained later in play except through Diablerie which in turn has very high costs (including finding a suitable victim and point in time). Thus, any player with at least a bit of experience kept trying to buy single-digit generations at character creation. I've seen lots of house-rules surrounding the issue as it tended to create a power gap between player characters almost immediately if played RAW. From increasing the costs of Generation, to establishing Sires and thus handing out Generation by ST-fiat, to my own house-rule of "double-digit Generations only", which BTW turned out to be the most elegant solution.

                                On the other hand, you cannot remove Generation from the game entirely, because that would really be a huge change to the established setting and canon. At least I would understand the immediate and probably loud outcry by the fan community, if WWE had gone down that road.

                                So finding a way to de-emphasize Generation (RAW: all characters start off in the same Generation) and using a mechanic like Blood Potency that relies on Age is a good step forward. Of course, there are many ways how they could have implemented this, but in the end they went with: Generation determines the corridor your Blood Potency falls in (min and max), while Blood Potency provides everything else. Which is fine I guess, but of course there would have been other ways of handling this.
                                I have to agree that Generation has always been a bit of a nuisance - especially as it inevitably led to diablerie and that road both leads to twinking and a somewhat constipated environment where the players' possibilities rapidly shrink, as they will constantly be hunted for their crimes.

                                In fact, the whole Background concept has been a source of grief for me, as I prefer to let the story define their alliances and influences, rather than a trait defining it.

                                This time around I refused them Background points, and decided they should all play 9th gens. And I have toned down the overall generation gap between the vampires as I prefer to let the setting and NPCs status define their interactions rather than a (somewhat) arbitrary trait. Dunno if V5 is going in the same direction. We'll see.

                                V
                                Last edited by Vincent; 08-02-2018, 05:26 AM.


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