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Thoughts on V5 and Technomancy - The Second Inquisition

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  • Thoughts on V5 and Technomancy - The Second Inquisition

    What are your thoughts on the Second Inquisition and technomancy?

    One would think that as soon as Kindred found out that technology was being monitored and used against them as all turns that the Tremere would be using their magic as a way to become even more of a savior by using it to protect the Camarilla.


  • #2
    First, it's highly likely there are members of the Technocracy in the Second Inquisition. So, that's going to limit the effectiveness of any Technomancy the Tremere try to work. Second, the Tremere have had their leadership destroyed and have split into three houses. So, they are not going to be nearly as powerful as they once were. Third, the rest of the Camarilla may not want to owe the Tremere that kind of boon.

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    • #3
      Yeah and the tRemere effectively won (or at least fought to a stalemate) two Massasa wars against, well, not the Technocracy, but the Traditions.

      Personally, I liked the take on the technological side of things in the V20 books, especially in Anarchs Unbound. The V5 approach is too much of a lore-bat to mey tastes, using the Second Inquisition as the ultimate justification for anything, regardless of how it goes against the previous material.


      If nothing worked, then let's think!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by PMárk View Post
        The V5 approach is too much of a lore-bat to mey tastes, using the Second Inquisition as the ultimate justification for anything, regardless of how it goes against the previous material.
        "Using" the Second Inquisition as justification could be right. Mithras might be the most exalted vampire who's used them to do a little political housecleaning, but I doubt that he's the only one.

        (As an aside, I refuse to believe that they actually took out Mithras without a death certificate signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public inquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by PMárk View Post
          Yeah and the tRemere effectively won (or at least fought to a stalemate) two Massasa wars against, well, not the Technocracy, but the Traditions.

          Personally, I liked the take on the technological side of things in the V20 books, especially in Anarchs Unbound. The V5 approach is too much of a lore-bat to mey tastes, using the Second Inquisition as the ultimate justification for anything, regardless of how it goes against the previous material.

          No, they won two wars against some hermetics. WHat people seem to consistantly forget is that the Tremere ARE super organized. They were unnaturally organized for even the Order of Hermes. Its not their magical skill that let them Fight the Order of Hermes, the Tzim, the Gangrel, the Nos, the Assamites. Its that htey are the most fucking organized faction in in the setting.

          Oh look what happened to them in v5...Yeah I wouldn't imagine they are proving much help there.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by johnsonhavoc View Post
            What are your thoughts on the Second Inquisition and technomancy?

            One would think that as soon as Kindred found out that technology was being monitored and used against them as all turns that the Tremere would be using their magic as a way to become even more of a savior by using it to protect the Camarilla.
            I think you're overestimating the power of the path against an enemy who actually uses proper computer security. I mean, what does the Second Inquisition actually do with technology?
            • They use mass surveillance, probably mostly metadata, to guess and trail kindred.
            • They use specialized equipment to identify kindred.
            • They use electronic storage to store their data on kindred.
            Now, Technomancy (by V20 rules) can analyze stuff, destroy stuff, encrypt or decrypt stuff, work on stuff from a distance and do all that from really far away. Now what should the Tremere do? Destroy surveillance cameras? There's hundreds of them and replacing them is cheap. Destroy the special equipment? That's bound to raise suspicion, especially when it happens more often. Destroy or "encrypt" the server with the Inquisition's findings? Those have air-gapped backups. And every single device manipulated costs a blood point and another WP roll.

            Technomancy is definitely helpful and those who possess it will likely have used it to keep themselves more secure than they could have managed otherwise (and secured a few boons on the side) - but it's not a miracle that would have prevented the current plot line.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Lian View Post


              No, they won two wars against some hermetics. WHat people seem to consistantly forget is that the Tremere ARE super organized. They were unnaturally organized for even the Order of Hermes. Its not their magical skill that let them Fight the Order of Hermes, the Tzim, the Gangrel, the Nos, the Assamites. Its that htey are the most fucking organized faction in in the setting.
              Right.

              Oh look what happened to them in v5...Yeah I wouldn't imagine they are proving much help there.
              Which is, I think is the exact reason why it happened, regardless of how illogical the outcome is. So again, Second-Inquisition = Lore-bat.



              If nothing worked, then let's think!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                I think you're overestimating the power of the path against an enemy who actually uses proper computer security. I mean, what does the Second Inquisition actually do with technology?
                • They use mass surveillance, probably mostly metadata, to guess and trail kindred.
                • They use specialized equipment to identify kindred.
                • They use electronic storage to store their data on kindred.

                Now, Technomancy (by V20 rules) can analyze stuff, destroy stuff, encrypt or decrypt stuff, work on stuff from a distance and do all that from really far away. Now what should the Tremere do? Destroy surveillance cameras? There's hundreds of them and replacing them is cheap. Destroy the special equipment? That's bound to raise suspicion, especially when it happens more often. Destroy or "encrypt" the server with the Inquisition's findings? Those have air-gapped backups. And every single device manipulated costs a blood point and another WP roll.

                Technomancy is definitely helpful and those who possess it will likely have used it to keep themselves more secure than they could have managed otherwise (and secured a few boons on the side) - but it's not a miracle that would have prevented the current plot line.
                But Technomancy combined with the kind of hackers, for example the Nosferatu has?

                Also factoring in the kinda security measures that were outlined (and likely refined since then) in Anarchs Unbound?

                I just think you and the writers are over-estimating both humans, human agencies and surveillance, while underestimating the resources vampires had, to reach the desired outcome of the V5 setting. It's absolutely not that clear-cut, in my oppinion.

                Mind I'm not saying the Second Inquisition is a bad idea. I quite like the idea, actually and I acknowledge that it could and should be a major shakeup of the setting. I the writers just took it too far and too one-sidedly to my tastes and how I've seen the setting, based on the earlier books.


                If nothing worked, then let's think!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Okay, so I have a process when I see internet slang I don't know. I google the term+the word "slang". If nothing explains it in three google pages, I just admit I am an old man and have to ask.

                  What is a "lore-bat"?

                  (Please at least pretend it is Hungarian slang, rather than something from my native language of English. Just humor me, and make an old man feel better.)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                    Okay, so I have a process when I see internet slang I don't know. I google the term+the word "slang". If nothing explains it in three google pages, I just admit I am an old man and have to ask.

                    What is a "lore-bat"?

                    (Please at least pretend it is Hungarian slang, rather than something from my native language of English. Just humor me, and make an old man feel better.)
                    Oh, no, it's not Hungarian, I just came up with it, as a lore version of the nerf-bat. Essentially, the writers are using this lore element as a bat to beat the setting into the shape they want.

                    If there's an already existing English word for that, please let me know.


                    If nothing worked, then let's think!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I believe "shoehorn" would be the closest term, though in this circumstance it would need some prepositional clauses thrown in.

                      Edit: Used in conjunction with "MacGuffin."


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                      • #12
                        There was a time when people would write LOL to say they were laughing.

                        LOL. I literally laughed out loud, when I realized my mistake. I though you meant a "bat", like the small mammal that flies around at night, as opposed to the thing you hit balls with during sporting events.


                        As for an English term, well, if you view the non-Tremere as a protagonist, I suppose it could be a "deus ex machina".

                        Except, that's not English, exactly. (Stupid English always stealing the best terms from other languages.)

                        Much less formally, but in a more Doylist explanation, it is more likely Armed With A Canon, from the literary analysts over at TV Tropes.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thank you both!

                          I devised it, because I encountered with "nerf-bat" many times and felt it a good fit. It's a nigh-omnipotent tool, to explain away and justify any wild setting changes, or, as I said, to beat it into the shape you want it to be .

                          Honestly, I'm rather surprised there isn't a geek jargon-term for it. It's not an exactly one-of-a-kind thing. D&D 4e Spellaplague. Avatar Storm. Crash 2.0 in Shadowrun (honestly, IMO, that was the best-executed from the list). Just from the top of my head.

                          Also, Nosimplehiway , I always felt it strange that bat is not just a... well, bat, like the ones flying in circles outside my room (which I'm very fond of, by the way), but the hitting instrument too. I mean, what's the possible connection here????

                          English is weird.


                          If nothing worked, then let's think!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                            I always felt it strange that bat is not just a... well, bat, like the ones flying in circles outside my room (which I'm very fond of, by the way), but the hitting instrument too. I mean, what's the possible connection here????

                            English is weird.
                            As for the instrument, the root "bat" is common in a few languages to name a stick/staff/pummeling tool or similar verb, like the French "baton." The English version probably picked it up from there. The animal, I'm not sure


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Chesh View Post

                              As for the instrument, the root "bat" is common in a few languages to name a stick/staff/pummeling tool or similar verb, like the French "baton." The English version probably picked it up from there. The animal, I'm not sure
                              Hmm, right, I'm somewhat forgot "baton", while I shouldn't have, regarding my HEMA background...

                              I'm pretty sure the animal is the doing of time-travellers, who got sick of "Small-Cute-Flying-Mammal-Man" and wanted something short and alliterating..


                              If nothing worked, then let's think!

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