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Will you be sticking with VtM 20th Anniversary or moving on to 5th edition?

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  • #76
    Originally posted by PMárk View Post
    I didn't got this feel in V20 though, not even in Anarchs Unbound. Yeah, they were a lot more capable than in Revised, but I liked that. I didn't felt that book preachy, or the preachy parts were in-character. I've read it a few years ago, but overall, I enjoyed the writing and the overall lookout more than the Revised Anarchs Guide.
    My thoughts on Anarchs Unbound can be summed up in two words, based on a single excerpt. You know, the one about the Great Recession, how the Anarchs caused it, yay us, go team, big win for the good guys, and we the readers are just kind of expected to go with that because the Anarchs are white hats by authorial fiat. Not even any earlier-edition style unreliable narrator subtext (or just plain text) to the tune of "yes, Anarchs really are that stupid and willfully destructive, if they seem like good guys it's only by comparison to the Lovecraftian horrors that inhabit the World of Darkness".

    Those two words are "fuck off".
    Last edited by Theodrim; 08-05-2018, 01:44 AM.


    • #77
      Originally posted by Chesh View Post
      There was more moderation. There might have been a lean, but there was also a rational acknowledgement that anarchy, when taken too far (and it is easy to tip too far), carried its own set of consequences, and that order, though also sometimes taken too far, had its good and necessary functions. All those aspects were explored in the game; they were part of what made it so dynamic and what engaged players in the struggles, because there were never any easy answers.

      2018 isn't a good year for moderation, though, and that unfortunately extends to recreational media
      I can get behind that, sadly.

      If nothing worked, then let's think!


      • #78
        Originally posted by Theodrim View Post

        My thoughts on Anarchs Unbound can be summed up in two words, based on a single excerpt. You know, the one about the Great Recession, how the Anarchs caused it, yay us, go team, big win for the good guys, and we the readers are just kind of expected to go with that because the Anarchs are white hats by authorial fiat. Not even any Revised-style unreliable narrator subtext (or just plain text) to the tune of "yes, Anarchs really are that stupid and willfully destructive, if they seem like good guys it's only by comparison to the Lovecraftian horrors that inhabit the World of Darkness".

        Those two words are "fuck off".
        I'd need to read it again, but I'm not sure it wasn't just an in-character boasting, which is okay for me. I didn't felt it that the writers have presented the recession as a good thing or the anarchs in a good light, if they were, in fact, caused it. But again, I've read it a few years back, I'd need to re-check. Overall, it was my favorite book about Anarchs, it gave a lot of good ideas and story material. I put down the Revised Guide with a lot less gain, it just felt... uninteresting. Which says a lot, since I like the Anarchs and I like the writing of Revised books very much. Anarchs Unbound had a lot more juice, more fire, but didn't felt preachy, or idolizing, or one-sided. The Brujah writeup does and to a lesser extent, but the whole narrative of V5 does a bit.

        If nothing worked, then let's think!


        • #79
          Okay, I've checked the part in Anarchs Unbound and yeah, they did it. Admittedly, it's a bit overblown, yes, but honestly, as I've said, I'm not against presenting the Anarchs as capable and competent, especially on a fieled quite alien to most elders. The writing doesn't show it as "fuckyeeeaaaah, rebellion, we're so coool for causing a global financial crisis!", doesn't show it as something that's all-in-all positive. It just presents an occurence of the Anarchs fighting back and won and presenting them as a power. I'm okay with that and maintain that the book didn't felt preachy.

          If nothing worked, then let's think!


          • #80
            Only thing I liked about V5 was the metaplot advances.
            Bur really that's the direction the the Jyhad Diary was moving in anyway.
            So I'd say V20 for the time being.

            That could change with the release of additional material for V5 though.
            So, I guess it's sort of a waiting game from my perspective.


            • #81
              After reading the book and transitioning my players from V20 to V5 this is my verdict:

              They will have to publish revised rules for this game because the rules are all over the place. For a veteran ST like me, it's not a problem, but a new ST will have really hard time IMO, you literally need to read the entire book to make sure you haven't missed anything. Which means it's really hard to find something in the middle of the session if you are not sure how it works.

              Combat rules are half-baked at most. It's a shame.

              I like the system a lot, it's a great upgrade for me. Mostly the morality rules, and the hunger rules.

              I like the options disciplines have now. Though some options, especially the sharing powers of level 4 potence, celerity and fortitude, are kinda meh. But all in all, it's cool. I also like that they condensed disciplines together. (Serpentis and Protean for example).

              I love the loresheets, I think it's great.

              I think they went to hard on the clan stereotypes. Especially with the Toreador and Bruja.

              Vampires are static creatures, a creature of habit, but in 13 years, two clans changed their names, one clan changed their weakness (Tremere), Thin Bloods learned somehow ancient alchemy, and Malkevian always used dominate apparently. Oh and Toreador only got their name somewhere around 1880. So I guess dark ages is not canon.

              Removing many of the big players, allow player characters to forge their own path, I like the street level theme, and the focus on morality.

              I think the art in the book isn't directed to the right audience, it's cool, and I like some of it, but it doesn't communicate V:tM to me. I felt like I am reading a fashion magazine with a Halloween and Bikers theme. I really miss Guy Davis

              I also didn't like the clan art, again, looks like a fashion magazine, and doesn't translate well to a real character that people will create, nor does it translate to clothes their characters will wear. Not to mention that apart from two nosferatu ladies, all the rest look like normal people, maybe LARP players with customs. There wasn't a single picture in the book that gave me an idea for a character or made my imagination reeling with possibilities. It's either a catwalk model with weird clothes or surrealistic avantgarde splatter of colors, very disconnected from the grimy street level theme they are trying to push.

              I think that this book is lacking hard in art direction. No chapter numbers, discipline symbols look like cheap illustrator icons. I don't mind simple icons, that's fine, less is more, but it doesn't look like a refined icon, it looks like a novice graphic designer made them. Especially the potence one.

              It's a tiny one, but at the start of the book, all the letters are sitting at the top of the old green marble we know and love from the older editions.

              Final verdict:
              I give the game 7/10. It's a good game that for me mostly falls on presentation and layout.

              I will transition to V5, and hope for great products in the future

              EDIT: I judge this game hard because I love it, this is my childhood. And I want it to improve because I think the direction is amazing, though I do think they should've taken their time, even one more year. Test it a lot more. More beta tests, more refinement. I am expecting a D&D/Shadowrun/Pathfinder, level of professionalism and coherency from WW. And when you look at those other games, you see a solid very defined game system. Here it feels kinda weird, and maybe because the rules are spread all over the book rather in their own dedicated chapter.

              I will play the game with two of my groups. One of two players, and the other of six. And I am sure that my perception will change with time and experience.
              Last edited by Godforsaken; 08-05-2018, 08:52 AM.


              • #82
                The least appealing thing to me is the book itself, starting by the cover. As Godforsaken said, looks like a fashion magazine. I personally dislike the cosplay photos mixed with drawing art. There is too much red and purple that hurt my eyes. Also, the clan's "costumes" looks far from reality unless you're coming out of a fashion event.

                I find hard to believe that that Sabbat would complete abandon their territories and go all-in in a war against the ground zero nuclear warhead resistant Antediluvians in Middle East (Assamites, Setities, and Ashirra territory). Well good luck to them. :-)

                So, I would not switch by now, but I like Generation and Blood Potency mixup, and the metaplot has some elements that I could use in my V20 chronicles.


                • #83
                  For me, I think that V5 in general has potential, but with every positive change that I see, there are several other changes that need improvement. There are many good ideas with poor execution. So far, the whole system deserved a great revision, maybe moving toward a "5.5 Edition".

                  And about metaplot... well, I think I'll wait for other books to come out, because I still do not have an opinion about it. I mean, so far, I haven't really enjoyed the execution of the metaplot's ideas either, but they may be better explained or explored later.


                  • #84
                    Sticking with V20, no contest.


                    • #85
                      I would like to run V5 with full canon rules with no houserules at all for a little while, just so I can judge it fairly.

                      I have to say, though, I tried creating some PCs just to try out the system, strictly with no house-rules, no hand-waves, and no cutting corners. I got so turned around with the organization of the book, I never finished them. Every time I thought I had something figured out, I stumbled across something else I wasn't sure about. Then there were rules and settings holes that might get filled later, by other books.

                      Maybe it was the concepts I was building: an aristocratic widow embraced as a (gasp!) caitiff (loosely inspired by the old show To The Manor Born), a shovelhead who got left behind and decided to throw in with the Camarilla, a sister wife in an FLDS household, an elderly volunteer at an animal shelter who has severe social anxiety, a thin-blooded/daywalking hair stylist who gathers info for the other vampires, and an escapee from a suicide cult.

                      I moved on from the Aristocrat when I couldn't decide if the rules allowed individual Domains or only coterie-held ones - she would not share well. The shovelhead made me realize how little we know of the Sabbat. The sister wife hit a roadblock when I couldn't decide how to structure her Touchstones; there are six wives and thirty-some kids, so how do you choose just three? The animal shelter volunteer was too awkward for a human TS altogether. With the hair stylist, I couldn't decide if a Scene Queen Predator Type would give her a dot of Presence or not - it and the daywalking merit are both central to the concept. The former cultist was inspired by the Hunted flaw, but I had difficulty with Convictions.

                      In fairness, I was just tired by the time I tried the last few.

                      Maybe, I'm just not very bright, but I may wait until I find someone else who is STing a game and learn by playing with them. Maybe I'll look for my first online game. I honestly don't feel sufficiently competent with the rules to ST at this point.

                      So, for now, it is the old familiar... the tome of all things VtM between just two covers... V20.


                      • #86
                        I didn't buy into V20 because there's no way I'm going back to a system I got fed up with over 15 years ago. For me V5's only real competitor is R2, which is by no means an easy comparison, but while R2 may be the better read, I suspect V5 wins in terms of usability. The CofD system has gotten fairly crunchy by this point, with more fiddly bits than my players can reliably remember, and you really do need a deck of cards to keep track of all the conditions, plus glass beads or the like to track vitae.

                        V5 is a distillation of some of the better ideas in R2 but is far less fiddly, and the setting combines the deep metaplot of Masquerade with the freedom and flexibility of Requiem into a nice package that ends up feeling a lot like the V:TM that first grabbed me back in the day (which was also what Requiem was intended to recapture, though it wasn't until R2 that they came close). V5, in true Masquerade fashion, is also more politically subversive than Requiem, which is another plus.

                        So yeah, I like the rules and setting of V5 enough for it to move to the front of my vampire-game queue. I'm eager to give it a shot.


                        • #87
                          @Black Fang


                          any of you like to storytell v5 with me playing?


                          • #88
                            I will stick with v20, with some lore elements from v5 adapted.


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Vendrin View Post
                              Worked out for me. I'm running a dark ages v20 game right now, so once that is done I'll have been able to read a few of the V5 supplements and can decide at that point.
                              Welp. Finally got my copy of V5 and read it. From the fashion week concept art that manages to make the nosferatu look pretty and the brujah characters all 20 somethings that look like fashionistas, to the ridiculous lack of explanation to any of the meta plot changes( why did theo kill Jan and Hardestadt? What is the beckoning? Where did House Goratrix return from? And many more) To the fact that the only way to fully sate hunger is to kill, and that you have to protect and care about a mortal, endangering their life if you want to keep up your humanity....

                              I'll be sticking with v20 for the foreseeable future.

                              PS. NUWW: Pick an art style and stick with it. Preferably not one set to cater only to Larpers.


                              • #90
                                I think for me the big issue right now is the wealth of material available for V20 vs V5. V20 has its own catalog, as well as the material from previous editions that can be adapted without much effort. V5 has one book, and it's not really backwards compatible. At least without a lot more work. So right now, I'll stick with V20. This might change once we have more stuff for V5, though.