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  • ChewyGranola
    started a topic V5: Super edgy or what?

    V5: Super edgy or what?

    I just read the Polygon review of V5. Now, before I get into this, I have been a vampire fan, player, and GM since first edition way freaking back, though the majority of my play time was in 2nd edition (and all of it's vampion wackiness). I don't have a ton of the books anymore, but I never remember encountering anything from old WW or Onyx Path that made me think "geeze guys, tone it down", with the possible exception of the Tzimisce clanbook back cover. I mean, heck, I'm also the kind of guy that got mad that Deadlands didn't include more accurate reflections of slavery and the brutality of the West. My memory may be super duper faulty, but I don't recall the books making a big deal out of the mature themes other than including them there and telling people not to get reality confused with fantasy.
    The Polygon review spends a lot of time focusing on how uncomfortable the reviewer was, and how WW is working to help with potential discomfort. They even have apparently added a big disclaimer in the book about how to deal with this kind of thing. It even mentions a stand alone book to help players deal with the situations brought up in game.

    So the question is this: Does the new edition include more things that some would call "edgelord-y"? Is new WW just more aware of the potential problems with including mature themes? Is it a partial reaction to the whole almost-pedophilia and supposed endorsement of the far right? Could some of it be a culture shift (new WW is Scandanavian while old was American)? Basically, is the new edition more concerned with being so edgy and cool they forgot about just having some fun?

  • xguild
    replied
    Personally I'm always surprised by reviews and reviewers that berate games for doing or being exactly what they intended to do or be.

    For example someone who reviews a long complex strategy board game and then craps all over it for being too long and too complex. Or someone who reviews an MMORPG and craps all over it for not being able to play it offline. It's hard to take reviews like that seriously or treat it with any level of respect. At least for me, that's the vibe I got from this one.

    I'm also surprised that this is still a conversation about Vampire The Masquerade. I mean, it's a game for adults, there is adult content, if that doesn't appeal to you, you shouldn't play it and certainly if you are a professional reviewer and that doesn't appeal to you, you have a professional obligation to refuse that review as it's not possible for you to be objective or fair, nore will you be capable of connecting with your readers.

    To me this review reads as if my parents picked up the book, read it and reviewed it. Its kind of like, yeah, I wouldn't expect anything else out of them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chesh
    replied
    It also helps to understand the definition and principles of fascism, which most people don't seem to. They just toss it out at anyone they disagree with as a buzzword, especially if that person happens to be in charge.

    How about we all stay away from politics on a non-political forum. That seems to me like it would be for the best.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Flag
    replied
    Originally posted by Vincent View Post
    Just to make sure that I wasn't talking (solely) out of my arse, I revisited the infamous article on Dog With Dice, and I ended up fast reading through the drivel, as I couldn't stomach the antics of a freshman sociology student, who sees conspiracies and fascists everywhere - even in places where it's so blatantly not. So we are not allowed to depict racism, pedophilia and other horrible traits in a game called World of Darkness? I wonder what sort of world the author thinks we're actually living in.

    Ay carramba! What a ridiculous tosser! And what a shame that Onyx Path had to defend themselves against it. I'm definitely gonna buy the book now.

    Right. I believe I have made my point.

    V
    Yeah, I'm all for social criticism of media etc., but that conspiracy theory about White Wolf being crypto-fascists is ludicrous and offensive, considering how obviously anti-fascist the authors of the book are. That guy took an obvious dig at contemporary fascists as somehow evident of support for fascists because... it mentioned the fascists? That's the kind of thing you get from actual fascists: the claim that any talk of racism is racist because... it involves mentioning race and racism, or something. So of course everyone should just shut up and be grateful for the status quo, because you can't talk about anything.

    On top of that, we're not living in a world where the fascists are all that crypto these days. If you're looking for them, it's easier for most people to look at who's in charge of the country than to try to puzzle out who's hiding in the community of a traditionally anti-authoritarian tabletop RPG.
    Last edited by Black Flag; 08-12-2018, 12:23 PM. Reason: clarity

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  • Nosimplehiway
    replied
    ChewyGranola

    My main issue with the Polygon review isn't that the reviewer wasn't well-disposed to vampires and the personal horror genre.

    On the one hand, a professional reviewer - which I assume Charlie Hall is, given that his1 writing on a technical level is well done - should be capable of putting personal taste aside.2

    On the other hand, there's value in a product review from the viewpoint of someone who isn't the game's target audience. Such a review ideally examines if the product has broad appeal. Hall readily admits his discomfort with the genre. This serves as a reasonable disclaimer concerning his aims. This review is not about how horror ttrpg fans would rate V5, rather it is about how their roommates and friends who get roped into playing it might feel about the game. This is all fair play on Hall's part, and should be taken as useful advice for those of us who hope to find players from outside the genre.

    My problem with Hall's piece, rather, is a journalistic one. If I understand correctly, the reviewer didn't actually use the product as it would ordinarily be used by an off-the-shelf purchaser. Hegot the book, looked it over, and then met up with Jason Carl for a one-on-one game session. Now, let me say, I am not against this being a thing that exists in the world. If Jason Carl ever wants to raise money at a charity auction, I would be the first in line to bid on his STing a game for me.

    However, that's not how most purchasers will experience V5. Most will get the corebook, study it, round up a few friends, and try to run a game themselves. How Hall handled this review is a bit like reviewing a new Taylor Swift album by having her do a personal concert of the music from the album in the reviewer's living room. If I were the reviewer, I wouldn't say "no" to the concert, but I would darn sure write the review first, using the actual product most people will receive, and use the personal concert as a press availability moment. The one thing I wouldn't do is base my review on the personal concert rather than the actual retail product.3

    I would be more impressed with Hall's review (and by extension, his journalistic instincts) if he had read the book, rounded up some friends to play, run a few sessions, and then spent the time with Carl interviewing him about any concerns or questions that arose... possibly with a short demo game to explain mechanical details that came up in test-play. Hall could legitimately have broken some news with that process. Maybe he could have found a rules tangle that Carl could have explained. Maybe he could have written about the emotional experiences of his group in-play. We'll never know what he could have written, because he let the opportunity pass.

    Instead, the main premise of the article was: "Hall has feelings about this game's premise; what is Carl going to do about Hall's feelings?"

    I have no problem at all with Hall as a writer. On a technical level, he's got it down. The problem seems to be4 someone once told him to "write what you know", and he misinterpreted it to mean, "write about yourself, even if there is someone more interesting in the room."5



    1I'm using the pronouns "he" and "his" for the journalist Charlie Hall. I don't know what pronoun the writer prefers, or their gender. I tried writing it with "they"s, but it became confusing to differentiate between the Hall "they" and the Carl-and-Hall "they". If this turns out be a bad guess, I am sorry.

    2Roger Ebert used to regularly give good reviews to good Slasher flicks, a genre he personally disliked. As a reviewer, Ebert could inhabit the mind of the average person who might go see one of those films and review it from that viewpoint. That's one of the main skills a good reviewer must develop.

    3Then I would thank Ms Swift graciously. Being that she is a guest in my home, I would offer her some drinks and snacks. Then I would try to casually take some selfies with her, while slipping it into the conversation that we are from the same hometown. Yes, I have planned this out, just in case, because one never knows. Don't judge me.

    4In this, admittedly, tiny, little, one article sample size.

    5I'm hoping someone will review my review of Hall's review, because there's no such thing as being too meta.

    Leave a comment:


  • Vincent
    replied
    Thanks, “Goose”.

    Dunno if I’m classy but let’s keep it honest this time around.

    Bloody hell! What has it been? 14 years? It’s like our game keeps us young with it ... or something.

    The Forum Con 2004 was a classical act ... but only due to Jackob and 42! It’ll never see the same scene again.

    But incidentally, some of us still see each other. Just spent yet another hollyday with DGG this summer, so it’s still alive.

    So, yeah ... next Forum Con.

    V
    Last edited by Vincent; 08-10-2018, 05:08 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • InfernalGoose
    replied
    Man alive, I've missed you, Vince! You always kept things classy back on the old-old boards. I'm not being sarcastic, by the way.

    Anyway, back to lurking I go. See you at the next Forum Con.

    Signed
    A Swedish Edgelord

    Leave a comment:


  • Vincent
    replied
    Just to make sure that I wasn't talking (solely) out of my arse, I revisited the infamous article on Dog With Dice, and I ended up fast reading through the drivel, as I couldn't stomach the antics of a freshman sociology student, who sees conspiracies and fascists everywhere - even in places where it's so blatantly not. So we are not allowed to depict racism, pedophilia and other horrible traits in a game called World of Darkness? I wonder what sort of world the author thinks we're actually living in.

    Ay carramba! What a ridiculous tosser! And what a shame that Onyx Path had to defend themselves against it. I'm definitely gonna buy the book now.

    Right. I believe I have made my point.

    V

    Leave a comment:


  • Vincent
    replied
    I have to say, as a Dane I find the term "Swedish Edgelords" as very much an oxymoron considering how outrageously PC their country has become. Here's an example of what typically happens when a Danish comedian (in lack of a better term) has a laugh at their expense:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0TmH_PMTIY

    It's not that I fancy provocation just for the hell of it or nasties in my Vampire Rulebook, but as this is a game of personal horror which deals with all the darkness humans and undeads are cabable of performing, I find it rather odd that some readers are offended by savage or sexual imagery or characters in the material. The best characters I have created were personalities I'd normally avoid and detest. And I believe it healthy to be confronted and presented with this very aspect of human behaviour. You are not likely to become a nazi by portraying one - rather the opposite.


    So, if my brothers and sisters to the north are treating this in a mature and interesting fashion, then all power to them from this side of the sound.

    V

    Leave a comment:


  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
    By Vampire standards V5 is not especially edgy, no. It’s perhaps a bit less so than Requiem 2e, but in the same league.

    There’s plenty of 90s WW stuff that’s edgier and more transgressive than either of these by a good margin, but not necessarily in a good way.
    You know why I prefer the edgyness of earlier editions to these (Requiem 2e and V5)? Because the later two seems to want to be edgy by constantly stressing how terrible vampires are and the sexual undertones through the writing. After a point, it ust feels boring and somewhat trying too hard.

    The earlier editions were edgy because they were dark and yes transgressive in every sense and talked about different things more openly, not just sex. I preferred that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Flag
    replied
    By Vampire standards V5 is not especially edgy, no. It’s perhaps a bit less so than Requiem 2e, but in the same league.

    There’s plenty of 90s WW stuff that’s edgier and more transgressive than either of these by a good margin, but not necessarily in a good way.

    Leave a comment:


  • Camilla
    replied
    Meh, I don't know for sure if V5 is too edgy for not, but I definitely get that edgelord vibe from the previews of it and I certainly know it's not for me.


    There's too much metaplot and now they're trying to forcibly ram certain themes down our throats worse than Revised did.

    When your edition has an even more intrusive metaplot and sense of One True Way-ism than even Revised Edition White Wolf did, you've truly lost me as a customer.

    You can hate on me all you want, but some people actually like the whole "Superheroes With Fangs" and don't like being insulted over it or told to go play "Some Other Game" by the very game company itself.

    Now if you like V5 and its themes and metaplot, that's cool by me You do you and I'll do me. But as I have said countless times before, I will be sitting V5 out.

    I still got 1e, 2e, and V20, so no worries.
    Last edited by Camilla; 08-06-2018, 05:33 PM.

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  • Godforsaken
    replied
    Originally posted by Vincent View Post
    I find it hard to believe it should be edgy with that shoddy cover. Bloody hell! It gives me nasty flashbacks to many a horrible poster I had to endure in girlies' rooms in the 80s in order to hang out with them.

    And even if it is, so what? Some people are getting really annoying these days with their demands for safe spaces, vegan food and ridiculous pronouns.

    V

    I agree. Vampire, always dealt with difficult issues and was meant for people who would like to delve into those issues through roleplaying. If for some reason the core theme of the game offends someone, he shouldn't approach such games.

    And I recommend not take anything polygon publishes as serious, their main objective is clickbait and drama, they will turn every subject on earth to a political issue of group identity, inclusivity, white supremacy, etc',.

    Leave a comment:


  • Vincent
    replied
    I find it hard to believe it should be edgy with that shoddy cover. Bloody hell! It gives me nasty flashbacks to many a horrible poster I had to endure in girlies' rooms in the 80s in order to hang out with them.

    And even if it is, so what? Some people are getting really annoying these days with their demands for safe spaces, vegan food and ridiculous pronouns.

    V

    Leave a comment:


  • Godforsaken
    replied
    Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post
    Aren't those from VTES?

    I don't know, never played the game,

    Leave a comment:

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