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  • V5 Questions Thread

    So, finally the 5th Edition is here, like you or not. I am reading here and ... the text is not exactly clear in several passages. Maybe I'm too used to Old Editions or GURPS, but my overall impressions is the text is very vague in terms of rules. Examples:

    * You must buy at least two Flaws in Character Creation, and in Thin-Blooded Merits/Flaws they say that these TB Flaws doesn't count in your maximum limit. But I can't find anywhere in the book what those limits are. Or if more Flaws give you more dots to spend (like in Old Editions)

    * Starting Generation. In Older Editions, you start in 13th Generation (or 12 in Dark Ages). But in V5 is... vague. It's says that you and the Storyteller should talk about, but I can't find any explicit rules for any guide at all. Just say that if you are a Thin-Blooded, you Generation is between 14th e 16th, if you are Childer or Neonate you start between 13th and 12th... there are just suggestions, not rules. Does every player start with the same Generation? What if not? Am I missing something?

    * A newly created vampire does not receive the Predator template, I get it. But is not clear what happen in the case of Thin-Blooded after they became used to their condition.

    * In V20 and V3, a Thin-Blooded vampire could buy Disciplines, but they were limited to a maximum of 2 or 3 dots in them. In V5 it's says that they have they own unique "discipline", the Thin-Blooded Aclhemy and that they don't start with any Disciplines at all (unless you have Discipline Affinity Merit). For me it was implied that the only real vampire power they can buy is their Alchemy. But is that true? So, a Thin-Blooded PC from V20 with some dots in two Disciplines could'nt exist in the V5? Is that it? Just to make sure.


    Just a few questions that have occurred to me so far. Sorry for any english mistakes!
    Last edited by Ghostwalker; 08-03-2018, 04:49 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Ghostwalker View Post
    So, finally the 5th Edition is here, like you or not. I am reading here and ... the text is not exactly clear in several passages. Maybe I'm too used to Old Editions or GURPS, but my overall impressions is the text is very vague in terms of rules.
    I think the rulebook is okay-ish when you read through it start to finish, but as soon as you try to find something specific, it gets difficult, because things that are relevant to three parts of the book are mentioned once. The fact that the PDF's bookmarks are screwed up isn't helping.

    Originally posted by Ghostwalker View Post
    * You must buy at least two Flaws in Character Creation, and in Thin-Blooded Merits/Flaws they say that these TB Flaws doesn't count in your maximum limit. But I can't find anywhere in the book what those limits are. Or if more Flaws give you more dots to spend (like in Old Editions)
    As far as I can tell by page 136, the maximum is those two dots of Flaws (plus Thin-Blood stuff). Apparently, you can't take on more flaws to get more Advantages.

    Originally posted by Ghostwalker View Post
    * Starting Generation. In Older Editions, you start in 13th Generation (or 12 in Dark Ages). But in V5 is... vague. It's says that you and the Storyteller should talk about, but I can't find any explicit rules for any guide at all. Just say that if you are a Thin-Blooded, you Generation is between 14th e 16th, if you are Childer or Neonate you start between 13th and 12th... there are just suggestions, not rules. Does every player start with the same Generation? What if not? Am I missing something?
    Take a look at page 139+140. Short version: "For game-balance reasons, all the characters should be of the same generation. If equal power among player characters doesn’t concern you, feel free to play a sire and their childe, or any other combination of Kindred that intrigues you."

    Originally posted by Ghostwalker View Post
    * A newly created vampire does not receive the Predator template, I get it. But is not clear what happen in the case of Thin-Blooded after they became used to their condition.
    Good question, no idea. I'd imagine you could use the same Predator Types, though probably with the disciplines stripped out.

    Originally posted by Ghostwalker View Post
    * In V20 and V3, a Thin-Blooded vampire could buy Disciplines, but they were limited to a maximum of 2 or 3 dots in them. In V5 it's says that they have they own unique "discipline", the Thin-Blooded Aclhemy and that they don't start with any Disciplines at all (unless you have Discipline Affinity Merit). For me it was implied that the only real vampire power they can buy is their Alchemy. But is that true? So, a Thin-Blooded PC from V20 with some dots in two Disciplines could'nt exist in the V5? Is that it? Just to make sure.
    That seems to be correct for now - though of course Alchemy is a pretty good way of faking it when it comes to disciplines.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cifer View Post
      As far as I can tell by page 136, the maximum is those two dots of Flaws (plus Thin-Blood stuff). Apparently, you can't take on more flaws to get more Advantages.
      But the text from page 150 isn't helping: "You must take at least two points of Flaws by the end of character creation.". The problem is the "at least" witch implies that could be more.

      Originally posted by Cifer View Post
      Take a look at page 139+140. Short version: "For game-balance reasons, all the characters should be of the same generation. If equal power among player characters doesn’t concern you, feel free to play a sire and their childe, or any other combination of Kindred that intrigues you."
      That was what I thought then. I don't like much this vage aproach, but... is what we have now.

      Originally posted by Cifer View Post
      Good question, no idea. I'd imagine you could use the same Predator Types, though probably with the disciplines stripped out.
      Yes, my thoughts too.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Ghostwalker View Post
        But the text from page 150 isn't helping: "You must take at least two points of Flaws by the end of character creation.". The problem is the "at least" witch implies that could be more.
        I would assume you're free to load your character with as many flaws as you think are fun to play them with.

        Originally posted by Ghostwalker View Post
        That was what I thought then. I don't like much this vage aproach, but... is what we have now.
        I must say I think it's good. The differences in power level between different generations and BP are pretty high, so just talk about what you want from the chronicle and choose accordingly.


        Comment


        • #5
          I have many questions which I would feel stupid asking if the book had been out any longer.


          Mythic Merits and Flaws, Stake Bait, p. 182: Staking kills instead of paralyzing. Would a character know they had this flaw? How?

          Mask, Cobbler, p. 192.: Can a Cobbler just make as many Masks as they want, given time? If one player buys this merit, why would any of the other players buy Masks at all... assuming a level of team play. Also, can a Cobbler create a flawed mask? For example, take an existing Mask used by an NPC and, by manipulating the bureaucracy, attach the Known Corpse, Known Blackbody, or add the Zeroed merit to it without the Mask holder's consent? Or, just sell someone a Mask that has a flaw for whatever reason?

          Predator Types, p175, p. 136, p. 307: Is there a way to change Predator Type? What happens if the pc becomes ineligible for their type, like a Farmer who raises Blood Potency beyond 2? Do they lose the attached traits? Can you purchase multiple Predator Types?

          Protean, Characteristics, p. 269: Protean affects the user, clothing, swallowed items, and other "small (under a few grams) wearables". Was the writer not picturing how much a gram is, or is this intentionally a really tiny amount? Because that would mean no watch (though I suppose that might be "clothing"), no cell phone, no house keys, no holstered weapons, and no wallet. This seems very restrictive. For example, this would mean Beckett would have to leave his hat, sunglasses, and... perhaps most alarmingly... his bag and notebook behind. I am almost certain Gangrel have transformed with more than a few grams in canon. The motorcycle jackets and boots alone...

          Protean 1 (Weight of the Feather), p. 270: Leave aside the physics problems with reducing mass and density; I'll just keep telling myself it's magic. Beyond that, though, the power says it can't be used for leaps because strength is proportionally reduced. If a Strength related pool is rolled while using the power (eg: Throwing a weapon while floating down to the ground.) what is the penalty? Also, what would the dice-pool be for a user to jump from a tall building, then de-activate the power a few meters above a target as an attack? What are the limits against protection against collision? I can maybe see ignoring a speeding bicyclist, as you float away. But, you're standing on the tracks and a speeding train just pushes you away like a puffy cloud? And, at what point aren't most physical attacks a "collision"? Colliding with a fist? A bullet? This whole power just seems like a can of worms. So, somebody is hurt by a mortal's punches, but not being run into with a train?

          Nosferatu Bane, p. 85: Nosferatu are required to take the Repulsive flaw. Does this count toward their required flaws at chagen?

          Sample Rolls, Distracting a Guard Dog, p. 128: The difficulty is 3+your Bane severity. I don't see this mechanic mentioned in "Animals" on p. 373, "Animal Ken skill", p. 164, or in Blood Potency, pp. 215-217. Am I missing something?

          Illustration, p. 357: Okay, I'll admit it. This is less a question and more a reaction: what is this illustration? Am I over-reading the semiotics? Am I reading it... wrong? Go ahead, call me a Philistine, but somebody explain this image to me.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
            Mythic Merits and Flaws, Stake Bait, p. 182: Staking kills instead of paralyzing. Would a character know they had this flaw? How?
            They might know it from a close call with a stake which really didn't feel like "just paralyzing". But yeah, since it's a flaw that can kill a character, I'd give them the knowledge.

            Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
            Mask, Cobbler, p. 192.: Can a Cobbler just make as many Masks as they want, given time? If one player buys this merit, why would any of the other players buy Masks at all... assuming a level of team play. Also, can a Cobbler create a flawed mask? For example, take an existing Mask used by an NPC and, by manipulating the bureaucracy, attach the Known Corpse, Known Blackbody, or add the Zeroed merit to it without the Mask holder's consent? Or, just sell someone a Mask that has a flaw for whatever reason?
            Yes, you can make as many masks as you want, but the paragraph includes "Making a mask takes three days per dot and possibly exposes you online". Do it too often and best case, your contacts get burned and you lose the merit - worst case, the Inquisition comes knocking. As for the rest, the merit doesn't say, so this would be ST fiat - I'd be inclined to say "yes, but". Known Blackbody in particular is usually a very bad idea, because that's how you eventually bring down the Inquisition on the whole city.

            Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
            Predator Types, p175, p. 136, p. 307: Is there a way to change Predator Type? What happens if the pc becomes ineligible for their type, like a Farmer who raises Blood Potency beyond 2? Do they lose the attached traits? Can you purchase multiple Predator Types?
            Personally, I wouldn't change Predator Types (it's the PC's experience - just because they can no longer use it doesn't mean they lose it). Buying another type would simply go by experience point expenditure. Also, note that you can extend Farmer life by getting Animalism 3 "Animal Succulence".
            But yeah, a way of buying off flaws might be helpful.

            Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
            Protean, Characteristics, p. 269: Protean affects the user, clothing, swallowed items, and other "small (under a few grams) wearables". Was the writer not picturing how much a gram is, or is this intentionally a really tiny amount? Because that would mean no watch (though I suppose that might be "clothing"), no cell phone, no house keys, no holstered weapons, and no wallet. This seems very restrictive. For example, this would mean Beckett would have to leave his hat, sunglasses, and... perhaps most alarmingly... his bag and notebook behind. I am almost certain Gangrel have transformed with more than a few grams in canon. The motorcycle jackets and boots alone...
            I'd read that as "less than a kilogram". Sunglasses, car keys and stuff are okay, a weapon may already be stretching things (pistol or brass knuckles possibly yes, baseball bat or shotgun no). Jackets and boots fall under the explicitly mentioned "clothes".

            Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
            Protean 1 (Weight of the Feather), p. 270: Leave aside the physics problems with reducing mass and density; I'll just keep telling myself it's magic. Beyond that, though, the power says it can't be used for leaps because strength is proportionally reduced. If a Strength related pool is rolled while using the power (eg: Throwing a weapon while floating down to the ground.) what is the penalty? Also, what would the dice-pool be for a user to jump from a tall building, then de-activate the power a few meters above a target as an attack? What are the limits against protection against collision? I can maybe see ignoring a speeding bicyclist, as you float away. But, you're standing on the tracks and a speeding train just pushes you away like a puffy cloud? And, at what point aren't most physical attacks a "collision"? Colliding with a fist? A bullet? This whole power just seems like a can of worms. So, somebody is hurt by a mortal's punches, but not being run into with a train?
            Use the MST3000 mantra: Don't think too hard about it, it's just a game. Just take the rules as they are when they give specific examples, don't think about what they'd actually imply.

            Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
            Nosferatu Bane, p. 85: Nosferatu are required to take the Repulsive flaw. Does this count toward their required flaws at chagen?
            Nope, the text says "count as having the flaw", not "need to take the flaw at generation".

            Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
            Sample Rolls, Distracting a Guard Dog, p. 128: The difficulty is 3+your Bane severity. I don't see this mechanic mentioned in "Animals" on p. 373, "Animal Ken skill", p. 164, or in Blood Potency, pp. 215-217. Am I missing something?
            I'd say it's just a improvisation upon the oft-mentioned theme of "animals don't like vampires", putting that into rules. But as an idea, I like it.

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            • #7
              When you want to learn out-of-clan discipline, you have to drink blood from someone who has it. Should it be necessarily in-clan discipline for teacher?
              Last edited by trueann; 08-04-2018, 04:49 AM.

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              • #8
                It says: from someone who have it. I'd say if he has it's enough even if it's out of clan.

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                • #9
                  If Nosferatu knows Presence, he can use it like any other clan, right?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yes indeed. There clan bane „just“ gives them the Ugly Flaw and the clan bane affects only attempts to pass as human. Since Appearance is not an attribute anymore, there is no 3rd level power the Nosferatu could buy but never use.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Day Drinker: Sunlight halves your Health tracker (rounded up), but otherwise simply removes your vampiric abilities, including all Disciplines and Health benefits, and does no other damage. You still suffer from Hunger, however, and sooner or later you’ll need to sleep. If your health drops below your currently sustained damage levels as a result of this, you suffer the effects of Impairment or torpor (depending on type of damage) until you are clear of sunlight.
                      So, you become a shitty version of Blade, a "Day Walker", is that it? No damage, just a weaker and powerless being?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ghostwalker View Post

                        So, you become a shitty version of Blade, a "Day Walker", is that it? No damage, just a weaker and powerless being?
                        That is a very vampiric thing. In the Southern Balkans, for example Greece, vrykolakes (which comes from the slavic word for werewolf actually) lost all powers and were greatly weakened during daylight but suffered no other ill effects and were indistinguishable from other humans.
                        Last edited by blackheartz; 08-04-2018, 06:07 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ghostwalker View Post

                          So, you become a shitty version of Blade, a "Day Walker", is that it? No damage, just a weaker and powerless being?
                          Well, any game option can be great in play, and any game option can be "shitty" in play.

                          There's a twitter thing going around... and I am no big fan of Twitter... but it aims to retell classic literature in Twitter length summaries.

                          So, Lady Chatterly's Lover becomes, "Upper-class woman gets it on with gamekeeper." And, the Canterbury Tales becomes: "Pilgrims tell each other stories while walking from London to Canterbury. Includes fart jokes. LOL!" These are nearly as reductionist as "shitty version of Blade".

                          A good story... and by extension, a good gaming chronicle... is about the details, the texture, the emotional impact of the basic set-up. So, yes, you could create a second Blade, if you wanted to.

                          You could, though, also create a more nuanced character with that set-up.

                          Maybe your Thin-Blood, Alex, is a small time drug dealer from a burnt-out industrial town. He's good-looking, athletic, and the biggest egotist you've ever met, in addition to being so emotionally stunted he can barely keep acquaintances. He finds himself immortal and still able to walk in the sun. Nobody can bring him down now, right? Except, he is so cocksure of himself he keeps provoking other vampires who are much more powerful than he.

                          Maybe your Thin-Blood, Becca, loves her half-vampire life. She is stronger, healthier, and able to do things she could never do while alive. She can even still run the garden center and nursery she started with her wife twenty years ago. Now, though, her wife is getting older, and has been diagnosed with a terminal disease. Becca has heard that diablerie will give her blood powerful enough to either embrace or ghoul her wife, but is she willing to give up the sun entirely? Plus, as with many couples, not all has been a honeymoon between them. If Becca were to commit diablerie, then her wife leaves, where would that leave her? Plus, Becca is not exactly the combat type. Could she even manage diablerie if she decided to?

                          Maybe your Thin-Blood, Cristoforio von Bohrloch (born Howard Weinblatt in Pittsville, MD), can walk in the daylight, but has no desire to. Being embraced was a dream come true for him, as he had always been a rather pretentious goth. Now, he indulges in all the silly stereotypes of vampirism: he wears lace-up leather pants (size: 42/28), hisses at crucifices (as he calls them), and wears white foundation to cover up his permanent Blush of Life. Sometimes he even uses a poorly executed Eastern European accent... something a member of his coterie who happens to be from Bratislava finds patently racist, and has threatened to kick his ass over. Cris is deeply ashamed of being thin-blooded and is hoping to "improve his condition". He hasn't stopped to think about how irreversible this would be, or how it might mean he would need to hunt actual, you know, humans, instead of his current diet of white rats he breeds in the basement.

                          Maybe your Thin-blood, Dareen, thought she had it made. Her father was a prominent banker from Egypt; her mother a famous singer from Ireland. Dareen was an Olympic medalist in fencing, and parlayed this into minor celebrity. The affair with her Toreador sire was brief, and he swore he was of noble vampire blood, so she accepted the embrace. Oh, he had noble ancestors. Or, maybe his great-great-great grandsire did? Now, for the first time in her life, she is an outcast. She can't contact her family or friends as everyone thinks she is dead. Her only chance is to find a vulnerable vampire to diablerize to improve her station. As lucky as ever, she has already found a target. A member of her coterie is 9th generation and offered to embrace some low-life she can diablerize. The catch? Her friend is a Nosferatu. Ugh.

                          Take the game option offered and stretch it, examine it, try it on, and see how it feels to be inside of that concept a little bit. You might get quite the memorable character from the oddest corebook details if you are open to it.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post


                            A good story... and by extension, a good gaming chronicle... is about the details, the texture, the emotional impact of the basic set-up. (...)

                            Take the game option offered and stretch it, examine it, try it on, and see how it feels to be inside of that concept a little bit. You might get quite the memorable character from the oddest corebook details if you are open to it.

                            I din't mean to be rude or anything! I just use the "shitty" before Blade just to make sure that my comprehension of the text was right. Actually, I can think in many in many interesting Thin-Blooded characters with different Merits combinations, even if they are weaker than other vampires! That being said, I agree with everything you said.

                            And sorry for any english mistakes
                            Last edited by Ghostwalker; 08-04-2018, 06:41 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ghostwalker View Post

                              So, you become a shitty version of Blade, a "Day Walker", is that it? No damage, just a weaker and powerless being?

                              This is also a Thin Blood thing, so it's... kinda thematic?

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