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  • Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

    They don't. It's, quite literally, in their blood. Thin-bloods could make their own Disciplines in Revised too, although it was suggested that you crib from rare and Dark Ages Disciplines too.
    Thanks for answering, although still don't fully understand how knowledge about ingredients, distillation and athanors can be "in blood".

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    • Originally posted by trueann View Post
      May be I missed it, but how and from whom thin-blooded learned alchemy?
      It is not precisely explained. I expect it might be explained later, perhaps in the Anarchs book.

      It may be a little early for me to have headcanon, but I saw Thinblood Alchemy as developing naturally from the system of YAWYE. Thinblood may realize that feeding from sad people instills Obfuscate, and Animal blood gives Animalism. It's not that big a leap to think stranger mixtures can give stranger powers. For example, drinking a mixture of the blood of a comatose person, chamomile tea, and a poppy seed kolach may give you the power to put someone to sleep.

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      • By the way, for how long thinblooded can use discipline, witch was gained by Alchemy?

        Last edited by trueann; 08-12-2018, 07:17 AM.

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        • Originally posted by trueann View Post
          May be I missed it, but how and from whom thin-blooded learned alchemy?
          Not all thin-blood vampires know alchemy. You need to take a merit to know it. Which means that you created some story that will tie to that merit.

          Maybe you drifted as a thin-blood aimlessly, until an old thin-blood found you, and took you under his wings, he had a huge library he collected over 50 years, full of knowledge and he is passing it to you as your mentor. It doesn't mean that every thin-blood you see knows alchemy.

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          • That just punts the question though. How did the older Thin-Blood know it to teach it? Are we meant to decide this for ourselves in our games with advice on different options and their implications? Or is it just vague and unanswered as to what the story behind the Merit should be?

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            • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
              That just punts the question though. How did the older Thin-Blood know it to teach it? Are we meant to decide this for ourselves in our games with advice on different options and their implications? Or is it just vague and unanswered as to what the story behind the Merit should be?

              Yes, you decide it yourself.

              It is written how it was developed, you decide what to do with it. Your ST can make it a secret or it can be common. But some thin-blood had enough time (immortals after all), to figure it out, and pass it along.

              It can be an awesome side story, your character can hear rumors about it, and start looking for that old master alchemist, he can have a cool street name, and maybe the other full blood vampires fear him or even hunt him.
              Last edited by Godforsaken; 08-12-2018, 11:19 PM.

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              • Originally posted by Godforsaken View Post
                Not all thin-blood vampires know alchemy. You need to take a merit to know it. Which means that you created some story that will tie to that merit.

                Maybe you drifted as a thin-blood aimlessly, until an old thin-blood found you, and took you under his wings, he had a huge library he collected over 50 years, full of knowledge and he is passing it to you as your mentor. It doesn't mean that every thin-blood you see knows alchemy.
                Merits don't always require a story to have it, it could just be you were born that way with an intuitive sense on how to apply it.

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                • Originally posted by Illithid View Post

                  Merits don't always require a story to have it, it could just be you were born that way with an intuitive sense on how to apply it.
                  It's true, but it will have some story aspect to it. Like how you found out you possess this power etc'. When I ST I usually ask my players to explain to me their merits and flaws, mostly because those are hidden gems for storytelling, and plot devices. But yeah, some merits, like Looks, don't need to be explained much, or at all.

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                  • It seems kinda like this is getting away from normal Merits vs. Loresheets. It feels like Merits should be fairly self-explanatory besides maybe some specificity. Buying into part of the story and part of the plot specifically, is what investing in a Loresheet is supposed to do, right? Having it be a Merit seems like it's just a talent some Thin-bloods have, and some don't (even if the how that developed still seems pretty handwaved), instead of something you invest in for both bonuses and story like the Loresheets provide.

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                    • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      It seems kinda like this is getting away from normal Merits vs. Loresheets. It feels like Merits should be fairly self-explanatory besides maybe some specificity. Buying into part of the story and part of the plot specifically, is what investing in a Loresheet is supposed to do, right? Having it be a Merit seems like it's just a talent some Thin-bloods have, and some don't (even if the how that developed still seems pretty handwaved), instead of something you invest in for both bonuses and story like the Loresheets provide.

                      So allies and contacts are also talents? they are people in the world of your character, and things happened for them to support your character, same goes for mentor, status, fame. All of those things have a story to them. So why can't repelled by crosses? or thin-blood alchemy?

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                      • Originally posted by Godforsaken View Post
                        So allies and contacts are also talents? they are people in the world of your character, and things happened for them to support your character, same goes for mentor, status, fame. All of those things have a story to them. So why can't repelled by crosses? or thin-blood alchemy?
                        They can have a story. But they don't need one. and sometimes there is no story to have on the mystical flaws - Why am I repelled by crosses? Maybe I watched too many hammer horror movies, maybe I have Trevelic Tremere or Baali blood in me in dilute measure; maybe I'll literally never know because it popped up at my embrace and the "Scientic method" doesn't work on "Magic"

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                        • Originally posted by Illithid View Post

                          They can have a story. But they don't need one. and sometimes there is no story to have on the mystical flaws - Why am I repelled by crosses? Maybe I watched too many hammer horror movies, maybe I have Trevelic Tremere or Baali blood in me in dilute measure; maybe I'll literally never know because it popped up at my embrace and the "Scientic method" doesn't work on "Magic"
                          I agree. They don't have to. Some do though. And when the system describe thin-blood alchemy as half instinct and half knowledge, I as an ST would like my player to expand upon it a little bit, and tell me more, because its not just a mechanic, it's something in the story, it's part of the narrative and it's part of the character, so it should get some spotlight, the same as you give allies names and some history.
                          You don't have to do it. You can just let it be a merit, and that's it. It's more a matter of playstyle than anything else IMO.

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                          • Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                            Another thing: why desires have to connect to someone on the Relationship map? I get that it is hip indie game design, but what if I want a desire, like "getting a ticket to that concert", or "seducing the girl I've seen last night" that has nothing to do with anyone else, at first, though I might ask for help later, or other members of the coterie might get into it voluntarily, or involuntarily. The rule feels like a forced attempt to narrow down the character's life to the map, to avoid lone wolf syndrome.
                            Well, you're the ones who draw the map in the first place. If "the girl I've seen last night" struck your fancy and you'd like her to stick around in the chronicle, just add her to the map and then write down the Desire. What the relationship map limitation does is create a narrative that stays focused and builds up a background that gets more and more complex. After a while, the guy is not just "your brother", but "your brother whom I protected from his bullies at work, who I haggled with for the concert tickets, who got seduced by Karen's Brujah goddammitKarenhowcouldyou?, who is still grumpy for me sending him away for a few months for his own protection".

                            You can still have the desire for the concert tickets. Noone's keeping you from it. Only if you want to make it a capital-D Desire and get rewarded for acting on it does it need to be something that builds up the world you share with the other players. And there are lots of ways in which you could do so: "Get a ticket to that concert to impress [The Girl I've Seen Last Night]." "Get [My Brother's] ticket to that concert." "Get a ticket to [My Favorite Band's] concert." - all are completely acceptable. You could probably even upgrade a desire to a Desire in the middle of acting on it when the ST or other players intervene to put more characters into it ("You ask around and it turns out your brother has tickets"/"Hey, think you could get me a ticket too? I've always wanted to see them live and I'd owe you one.").

                            The only thing you can't make into a Desire is getting a ticket from an unimportant NPC to a concert of an unimportant band with only unimportant people accompanying you.

                            Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                            Also: do Tenets being limited to 3? Honestly, I'd prefer more tenets and convictions too (and convictions not shackled to humans...), like, max 5 would be good, I think. + just seems too small a number to write up either the moreal guidelines for a chronicle, or the complex morals of a person.
                            The number of chronicle tenets is essentially unimportant because you can define them as broad or narrow as you want them to be. Three seems like a good number to me because they're easy to keep in mind, but if you need five to explain complex topics in more detail, nothing will break over it.

                            Convictions, on the other hand, seem somewhat more problematic to add to, because again, they're not just convictions, they're Convictions. They're the things your character would break common morality over and say "worth it!" afterwards. How many of those do you really need to portray a believable fictional character? Plus, of course, an overabundance of Convictions makes it more tempting to haggle over whether your current transgression might be covered by one of them.

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                            • Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                              Well, you're the ones who draw the map in the first place. If "the girl I've seen last night" struck your fancy and you'd like her to stick around in the chronicle, just add her to the map and then write down the Desire. What the relationship map limitation does is create a narrative that stays focused and builds up a background that gets more and more complex. After a while, the guy is not just "your brother", but "your brother whom I protected from his bullies at work, who I haggled with for the concert tickets, who got seduced by Karen's Brujah goddammitKarenhowcouldyou?, who is still grumpy for me sending him away for a few months for his own protection".

                              You can still have the desire for the concert tickets. Noone's keeping you from it. Only if you want to make it a capital-D Desire and get rewarded for acting on it does it need to be something that builds up the world you share with the other players. And there are lots of ways in which you could do so: "Get a ticket to that concert to impress [The Girl I've Seen Last Night]." "Get [My Brother's] ticket to that concert." "Get a ticket to [My Favorite Band's] concert." - all are completely acceptable. You could probably even upgrade a desire to a Desire in the middle of acting on it when the ST or other players intervene to put more characters into it ("You ask around and it turns out your brother has tickets"/"Hey, think you could get me a ticket too? I've always wanted to see them live and I'd owe you one.").

                              The only thing you can't make into a Desire is getting a ticket from an unimportant NPC to a concert of an unimportant band with only unimportant people accompanying you.
                              The problem is, this is exactly why I don't like this kind of forced relationship stuff. Because yes, it constricts the game to be a, basically, soap opera, where everything revolves around drama among a selected group of people, not the believable life of (un)living characters.

                              We all have lots of daily struggles, goals and just stuff that don't have anything to do with our friends or family that way. That the game only rewards WP for the ones that does have something to do with peole on the relationship map is just feels artificial. It's forcing story, instead of letting the story to happen. Because If I really want that ticket, that is important to me and there are tons of ways for the group and ST to make it importnat to the story. I can ask my buddy to help me get the ticket from an underground dealer. I can invite other members of the coterie along. I might see something on the concert which necessiates calling my friend, who knows the Sheriff, to come over, because I might've seen a a Sabbat spy.


                              The number of chronicle tenets is essentially unimportant because you can define them as broad or narrow as you want them to be. Three seems like a good number to me because they're easy to keep in mind, but if you need five to explain complex topics in more detail, nothing will break over it.
                              Well, I don't think a tenet that is multiple sentences long is working as intended. I said max 5 because that seems a sufficient number for summarizing a chronicle's moral outlook. 3 just seems too sparse.

                              Convictions, on the other hand, seem somewhat more problematic to add to, because again, they're not just convictions, they're Convictions. They're the things your character would break common morality over and say "worth it!" afterwards. How many of those do you really need to portray a believable fictional character? Plus, of course, an overabundance of Convictions makes it more tempting to haggle over whether your current transgression might be covered by one of them.
                              Again, I said max 5, because yeah, there are people who have more strong moral, well, convictions that couldn't condensed into three bullet points.


                              If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                              • Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                                The problem is, this is exactly why I don't like this kind of forced relationship stuff. Because yes, it constricts the game to be a, basically, soap opera, where everything revolves around drama among a selected group of people, not the believable life of (un)living characters.
                                Everything should revolve around a selected group of people - those are called the player characters. The more stuff revolves around other people, particularly one-off npcs, the more time the other players spend with sitting there and waiting for their turn. If I had to choose a media format, I'd absolutely choose ensemble cast over a sole protagonist.

                                Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                                We all have lots of daily struggles, goals and just stuff that don't have anything to do with our friends or family that way. That the game only rewards WP for the ones that does have something to do with peole on the relationship map is just feels artificial. It's forcing story, instead of letting the story to happen. Because If I really want that ticket, that is important to me and there are tons of ways for the group and ST to make it importnat to the story. I can ask my buddy to help me get the ticket from an underground dealer. I can invite other members of the coterie along. I might see something on the concert which necessiates calling my friend, who knows the Sheriff, to come over, because I might've seen a a Sabbat spy.
                                By now we've got "Get [my buddy] to help me with that underground dealer", "Have a great night with [my coterie] at the concert" and "Curry favor with [the Sheriff] by outing a Sabbat spy" (or possibly even [a Sabbat spy] if they're important enough). I really see no stick there, only a pretty easily reachable carrot.

                                Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                                Again, I said max 5, because yeah, there are people who have more strong moral, well, convictions that couldn't condensed into three bullet points.
                                Depends on how complex we make our characters, I assume, but I think three "core drives" are just in the sweet spot between "too simplistic" and "too bogged down in the details". After all, noone says you can't have additional morals beyond those on your character sheet.

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