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That which I dislike the most about V5: The absence of the Elders

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  • That which I dislike the most about V5: The absence of the Elders

    I understand the point of having them gone. It allows for a vastly different World of Darkness and opens the field for youngers vampires, ie the Player Characters, to be the ones making the decisions. Fair enough, God knows I have seen Vampire metaplot described as "The Players sit around, watching the important vampires do the important things".

    But still, I must confess I care for it not at all. It is a good idea, taken to an extreme. It could have worked, in my opinion, if the Beckoning was a gradual thing, and V5 opened as a few Elders were disappearing, adding to the paranoia of those that remained. Instead, with anyone older than 250 years and blood thicker than 10th generation gone and the Camarilla forbidding any one with a generation lower than 12th from joining its ranks, I can't help but wonder who is even holding the fort.

    Perhaps I simply can't picture a Camarilla without a shadowy Inner Circle or perhaps I am simply too fond of the well developed, well characterized canon Elder characters of VTM but, out of all things in V5, this is the one I dislike the most. Surely there must have been other ways of making the younger generations important, without bringing an hatchet to all the Elder ones.

  • #2
    I feel you, but I also think it's one of the easier things to hand wave if your starting with new young vampires. Just add them back in. You don't really need rules for level 7 disciplines, they will wipe the floor with new born thin bloods. I think trying to run a higher powered game where the players are stronger and can contend with those elders will have to be put on hold until more books come out though.

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    • #3
      I must confess i also dislike the Beckoning becuase it feels like a poor excuse to eliminate the Elders , the Sabbat and buff the Anarch akin to what happened with the Avatar Storm. I get the same feeling with Carna rebelion an event with the purpourse to allow people to be an Tremere and an Anarch without being an Antitribu in the line of what V20 rites of the blood already did by given thaumaturgy to all.V5 is taking or decreasing the consecuences of the players decisions and thats boring

      The sad thing about this is that what make the anarch fun was the underdog against the system vibe if they are equal or similar in power level/options then , well being of one faction or another doesn´t matter that much.Also the thing that made the Anarch Fun is that their fight isn´t fair becuase their enemy is more powerful than what they are by far but they have a chance of winning due the fact that they are risking their lives while their enemys not.The fact that they can lost everything they have won or not having nothing to lost gives them an strengh that the conservative and slow paced strategies of the elders of the camarilla have difficulties dealing with and that is their strenght along the skill to win simpaties from the opresed in the domain.

      War of Ages is the core theme of the Anarchs without Elders Anarchs feel more like rebels without a cause.

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      • #4
        It's pretty much exactly the Avatar Storm. Perhaps like that, we'll see a rollback of this idea over future supplements. But it definitely loses something in evaporating the Jyhad like that overnight.

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        • #5
          I've neer followed Mage. What were the Avatar Storm and its effects?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
            I've neer followed Mage. What were the Avatar Storm and its effects?
            To oversimplify, the Archmage's chantries in the spirit realm blew up and the entire spirit realm itself was changed to the point that all people living long-term in the spirit chantries irreversibly became spirits. So all the major NPCs that were too old to live on earth were gone more or less forever. After that, any time a mage tried to cross the gauntlet into the spirit world, they had a chance of taking aggravated damage that could sever their avatar from their bodies, turning them into spiritually dead humans. This effect was stronger the more powerful a mage was.


            Mage: the Ascension - Redesigned Prime Sphere; Streamlined Wonder Creation
            Mage: the Awakening 2E - Hogwarts: the Wizarding World Chronicle
            Mummy: the Curse - Lightweight 2E Conversion; Disciples of Duat

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            • #7
              Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
              I've neer followed Mage. What were the Avatar Storm and its effects?
              All the elders (Masters and Archmages) were exiled to the Middle East (cut off from Earth in the Umbra), due to the Beckoning (the Avatar Storm), leaving desperate fledglings (initiates) to fight off the Second Inquisition (triumphant Technocracy) in dirty, street-level campaigns cut-off from the Bad Wrong Fun of the Jyhad (Umbra).

              The effect was a more punitive, intrusive system for Paradox and an inability to access a major aspect of the setting, namely the Umbra, on pain of death. All the big players were disappeared overnight, the leaders of the Traditions were gone and the order fractured (like the Camarilla and Tremere), railroading players towards One True Way of playing.

              It was unpopular with many players, and later supplements made it slightly easier to travel to the Umbra and brought a new inner council in the form of the Sphinx to replace the old one. It was gradually revealed that the Technocracy hadn't really won, because they'd screwed themselves too.

              It's very like the current situation, and I expect they'll tweak the status quo in later supplements this time too.
              Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 08-06-2018, 10:44 PM.

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              • #8
                I kind of see it more as a way to mesh VtM and VtR, honestly. One of the issues with Mage, like it or not, was it was getting sort of rediculous, in the sense of to write for. It was becoming sort of like 10 totally different games, and needed to be dialed back a bit.

                Unfortunately, that was also the specific appeal for many Mage fans, where one Chronicle could be a street level turf war, another a Star Trek-like space opera, another an exploration of real world lite religion & politics, and another building empires and dynasties across different realities and planes. Or all could be done in a single Chronicle.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                  I kind of see it more as a way to mesh VtM and VtR, honestly. One of the issues with Mage, like it or not, was it was getting sort of rediculous, in the sense of to write for. It was becoming sort of like 10 totally different games, and needed to be dialed back a bit.

                  Unfortunately, that was also the specific appeal for many Mage fans, where one Chronicle could be a street level turf war, another a Star Trek-like space opera, another an exploration of real world lite religion & politics, and another building empires and dynasties across different realities and planes. Or all could be done in a single Chronicle.
                  But that's exactly what many fans love about the World of Darkness. That's also its selling point to TV studios and game developers. You can literally do anything with it.

                  Or, at least, you could, until the powers that be decided, once again, that players can't be trusted with what they want.

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                  • #10
                    I am not a huge Mage fan, so am trying to stay neutral on the subject, (or was that more an arguement against V5?), so again, simply pointing out what I recall the logic behind it was. I am not really saying I agree, but I can understand it, and did point out that it was a major draw for many Mage players.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

                      All the elders (Masters and Archmages) were exiled to the Middle East (cut off from Earth in the Umbra), due to the Beckoning (the Avatar Storm), leaving desperate fledglings (initiates) to fight off the Second Inquisition (triumphant Technocracy) in dirty, street-level campaigns cut-off from the Bad Wrong Fun of the Jyhad (Umbra).

                      The effect was a more punitive, intrusive system for Paradox and an inability to access a major aspect of the setting, namely the Umbra, on pain of death. All the big players were disappeared overnight, the leaders of the Traditions were gone and the order fractured (like the Camarilla and Tremere), railroading players towards One True Way of playing.

                      It was unpopular with many players, and later supplements made it slightly easier to travel to the Umbra and brought a new inner council in the form of the Sphinx to replace the old one. It was gradually revealed that the Technocracy hadn't really won, because they'd screwed themselves too.

                      It's very like the current situation, and I expect they'll tweak the status quo in later supplements this time too.
                      Well, that's uncanny.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                        I am not a huge Mage fan, so am trying to stay neutral on the subject, (or was that more an arguement against V5?), so again, simply pointing out what I recall the logic behind it was. I am not really saying I agree, but I can understand it, and did point out that it was a major draw for many Mage players.
                        Of course. I understand why it was done, but the counterargument needs to be made too.

                        I think it's interesting that MET did some market research into why some people prefer oWoD to CoD, and that kind of effort wasn't repeated. VTM fans who stuck with that game instead of VTR didn't want balanced or streamlined rules. They wanted oodles of metaplot and signature NPCs.

                        I wonder what a similar survey now would reveal?

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                        • #13
                          I would have prefered an actual gehenna like Wormwood then they could also have explained all the fucking power changes as well. Honestly with the whole Theo bell stuff It feels more like a "I like these Npcs better lets get rid of the "boring"(Ventrue) Ones..

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

                            All the elders (Masters and Archmages) were exiled to the Middle East (cut off from Earth in the Umbra), due to the Beckoning (the Avatar Storm), leaving desperate fledglings (initiates) to fight off the Second Inquisition (triumphant Technocracy) in dirty, street-level campaigns cut-off from the Bad Wrong Fun of the Jyhad (Umbra).
                            Couldn't have said it better myself. Like HardestantTheEvenYounger said, it's uncanny as hell how heavily V5 is channeling Mage Revised.

                            And it rustles my jimmies just as much as that did. Possibly moreso, actually, because I'm a relatively recent convert to the World of Darkness. I wasn't into tabletop RPGs when Revised first dropped, so I got to "enjoy" the Revised era's changes for a few years before M20 dropped. V5, by contrast, is the new thing, and all I can think of is how little I like this change over V20.

                            One of the big things that galls me over this "Beckoning" business is how it basically takes the entire central conflict of Vampire: The Masquerade - the war between old and young - and summarily breaks it over a knee. Why should I care about the Anarch's rebellion if they are no longer rebelling against the established status quo? Why should I care about neonate vampires claiming power for themselves if they got it handed to them on a silver platter? Why should I care that "some Sabbat are still around", if they are more isolated stragglers, rather than a threat with an entire sect behind them and a proclivity to start crusades? Why should I shut up and enjoy street level personal horror, when I could always do that in previous editions, but it's now the only game in town?

                            A lot of people are trying to make excuses for V5 by saying that if I don't like aspects of the game, I can just change it. Accurate as it may be, it falls into the exact same logical problem as Revised had. If I don't want to play the game the designers want me to, then the new edition has nothing to offer me. So why should I adopt it at all?


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                              A lot of people are trying to make excuses for V5 by saying that if I don't like aspects of the game, I can just change it. Accurate as it may be, it falls into the exact same logical problem as Revised had. If I don't want to play the game the designers want me to, then the new edition has nothing to offer me. So why should I adopt it at all?
                              Well, I have revised and V20 at home. I am adopting V5 because I think that the vampire template is better executed here. I totally agree that if you and your group really love to play according to canon, then V5 is kinda weird about it. It's like they wanted to create a 3rd Vampire franchise, but decided that using the masquerade title will attract more people.

                              I never played according to the canon, so I am not bothered as much.

                              But back to the subject of the post, I think that they will have elders in the game. They will create the game people want them to create in the end, and they will have to listen to feedback if they want V5 to fly.

                              Also, not all elders are gone. According to V5 Terrasse and Jeanette Voerman, for example, are still in LA. Their sire, according to BJD is generation 6. And I am sure many powerful kindreds are still around.

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