What's with all the V5 sour grapes?

[jamiemalk]

Easy.. use the default system.. and done.

Your exageration that the default system is ”Vampire Junkie”.. is a stretch at best, absolute bullshit at worst.

No, that's not an answer or an argument. I would like to hear one.

The only way to not be hungry is to kill someone. Or have i missed something? This is vastly less flexable than V20.

You said i could play anything in V5 that i could in V20. I want to play a kindred who doesn't need to kill to be full. How do i do that?

[JezMiller]

While i agree with most of what you wrote, the Circulatory System loresheet gives us more about the culture that would come with the kind of kindred written in V5.

It amused me that there was a social media firestorm when they suggested that some Brujah might be neo-Nazis, but nobody's giving them hell about the Circulatory System. Neo-Nazis push an agenda of segregation, discrimination and hatred against minorities, but they've never actually advocated selling them as food. To quote Davros, "That would have created what believe is termed 'consumer resistance' "

[Heavy Arms]

I actually disagree with you.

Besides doing so on general principle, I'm not really seeing much here.

Every VTM book has a section where it describes what Vampires are.. that’s the VTM describtion and I will point out that it was different in pretty much every edition of the game.

I think there's a solid case that the differences between 1e, 2e, Revised, and V20 are all rather small, especially compared to V5. If that's all we're disagreeing on here, you're actually agreeing with my larger point, and it's just continuing that trend of trying to dismiss V5 criticisms instead of engaging with them.

What I think your upset about is that it wasn’t defined how YOU.. not the community, YOU, want it.

You mean that thing I said is what you got from what I'm saying?

"Long time VtM fans are invested in the specific way VtM defined its vampires. Because every vampire story, let alone game, defines vampires for itself. V5 defines vampires in some fairly significantly different ways from the previous editions. People that still want to play pre-V5 VtM vampires feel like they can't play that in V5, despite V5 supposedly being a continuation of the same game."

Oh, sure I said it for more than just myself, but I'm hardly the only person saying it. Trying to paint me as some lone radical is easily falsified by this thread, and neither of us can assert how much of the long time VtM fan community I'm speaking for accurately. But I'm trying to explain why people feel the way they feel here, which doesn't care about how representative it is of the total group of people I might be generalizing about.

What I challenge and call total bullshit on, is that V5 is any more or less flexible in re-defining what a Vampire is mechanically than any previous edition.

There's no way to address this statement because it's entirely too vague beyond stating dissent.

It seems to be completely devoid of the context of "what the game is flexible about," not being the same as some odd concept of equity in flexibility.

[Heavy Arms]

It amused me that there was a social media firestorm when they suggested that some Brujah might be neo-Nazis, but nobody's giving them hell about the Circulatory System. Neo-Nazis push an agenda of segregation, discrimination and hatred against minorities, but they've never actually advocated selling them as food. To quote Davros, "That would have created what believe is termed 'consumer resistance' "

I think it's as simple as one being previewed early (and turning off a lot of those voices from buying the book, and thus reading over all the Loresheets for more things to get angry about).

I think there's also a more complicated issue that the upset over the Brujah write-up is a bit more nuanced than, "some Brujah might be Neo-Nazis," because VtM fans do actually appreciate that the WoD is supposed to be a game with some dark stuff in it, and what we expect in 2018 is more responsible presentation of that material rather than excising things completely.

[JezMiller]

I think this right here is what bothers me most about V5: they didn't just change Vampire in how it works, they changed how vampires themselves work. The Beast is, pardon the wordplay, a different animal now. Their relationship to blood is different. To me, V5 Kindred seem about as functionally different as VtR Kindred. That's no jab at VtR, as I play and run Requiem and enjoy it as it's own thing. Because it's noticeably different from Masquerade, mechanically and in how vampires work. Do you see how that might be a problem in this context, though?

These vampires are a whole new breed of bloodsucker. Sure, some of the themes being harped on are part and parcel of what playing a game about vampires is, but that goes for any game featuring blood-drinking undead as player characters. There's only so much you can change about VtM vampires before they become a bit generic. And if I wanted to play generic vampires in a cleared out setting, I could just play GURPS or something. Masquerade has always been more than that.

Hmmmm. I have a different perspective from you.

I'm with you on the core point - I want to play Masquerade because I want to play a Masquerade vampire. So the question then becomes, what makes a Masquerade vampire a Masquerade vampire rather than a Requiem vampire or a Vampire Diaries vampire or (heaven help us), a Twilight vampire?

The changes to the way vampires "work" are all a matter of game mechanics. There's one change which impacts the nature of characters - Touchstones - which forces Twilight-y, codependent relationships with mortals, and demolishes the old idea that the Roads and Paths were internal psychological coping mechanisms which depend on the vampire's strength of will and character. And that change is the only one I hate. Humanity has changed too, granted, but its purpose and importance are still front-and-center. Masquerade vampires can't, for instance, just switch their emotions off and commit atrocities without consequence the way that Vampire Diaries vampires can.

And the rest? Vampires still have the same clans (with mostly the same weaknesses as before), generations, hunger, the beast, the Sects, Disciplines (with similar, though more diverse, powers). They still have the hugely rich diverse history, the famous characters. As the Brujah said the the Ventrue, we'll always have Carthage.

V5 uses a different set of mechanics to represent the real world... unreal world... oh, you know what I mean... to V20 or 1st edition, or whatever. So does GURPS Vampire: The Masquerade. But the world that's being represented in each case is still - to me - the world of Masquerade

[xguild]

No, that's not an answer or an argument. I would like to hear one.

The only way to not be hungry is to kill someone. Or have i missed something? This is vastly less flexable than V20.

You said i could play anything in V5 that i could in V20. I want to play a kindred who doesn't need to kill to be full. How do i do that?

So your beef with the hunger system is that its too much for you as an ST to simply say.. in my game, you don’t have to kill someone to be full? I would say that’s pretty bloody flexible, if you can fix it with a signle 6 word sentence.

In oVTM, Hunger had ZERO impact on gameplay, you how we dealt with it? We added it... in the same way, we simply said.. hey if your half blood pool.. your hungry.. DONE..

I will grant you that there are some mechanical challenges in V5 as there always were on oVTM, but when we have to have conversations on this level, I question wether you have actually ever run or played in an RPG.

[jamiemalk]

So your beef with the hunger system is that its too much for you as an ST to simply say.. in my game, you don’t have to kill someone to be full? I would say that’s pretty bloody flexible, if you can fix it with a signle 6 word sentence.

In oVTM, Hunger had ZERO impact on gameplay, you how we dealt with it? We added it... in the same way, we simply said.. hey if your half blood pool.. your hungry.. DONE..

I will grant you that there are some mechanical challenges in V5 as there always were on oVTM, but when we have to have conversations on this level, I question wether you have actually ever run or played in an RPG.

No, you said as flexable as V20. I can do hunger in V20 without changing anything. How do i do "full without killing" without a house rule in V5?

I don't like the system, i've never denied that, but i also don't like V5 being trumpeted as a bold step forward into the modern age that provides limitless potential, when it's massively regressive for the series and fundamentally changes the setting.

[xguild]

Besides doing so on general principle, I'm not really seeing much here.



I think there's a solid case that the differences between 1e, 2e, Revised, and V20 are all rather small, especially compared to V5. If that's all we're disagreeing on here, you're actually agreeing with my larger point, and it's just continuing that trend of trying to dismiss V5 criticisms instead of engaging with them.



You mean that thing I said is what you got from what I'm saying?

"Long time VtM fans are invested in the specific way VtM defined its vampires. Because every vampire story, let alone game, defines vampires for itself. V5 defines vampires in some fairly significantly different ways from the previous editions. People that still want to play pre-V5 VtM vampires feel like they can't play that in V5, despite V5 supposedly being a continuation of the same game."

Oh, sure I said it for more than just myself, but I'm hardly the only person saying it. Trying to paint me as some lone radical is easily falsified by this thread, and neither of us can assert how much of the long time VtM fan community I'm speaking for accurately. But I'm trying to explain why people feel the way they feel here, which doesn't care about how representative it is of the total group of people I might be generalizing about.



There's no way to address this statement because it's entirely too vague beyond stating dissent.

It seems to be completely devoid of the context of "what the game is flexible about," not being the same as some odd concept of equity in flexibility.

Heavy Arms I don’t engage in arguments with you because your mind is made up. I think we have already established that I disagree with you entirely and believe most of the things your complaining about are nonesense. What else is there to discuss? Your not going to play V5, I will. Your not going to do it for a bunch of nonsensical reasons (in my opinion) and I will because V5 is awsome (in my opinion)

What possible gains could we get from a conversation?

[xguild]

No, you said as flexable as V20. I can do hunger in V20 without changing anything. How do i do "full without killing" without a house rule in V5?

I don't like the system, i've never denied that, but i also don't like V5 being trumpeted as a bold step forward into the modern age that provides limitless potential, when it's massively regressive for the series and fundamentally changes the setting.

V20 was NOT flexible, saying it doesn’t make it true. I literarly gave you an example. HUNGER HAD ZERO IMPACT IN VTM20.. It did nothing ZERO. So if you wanted hunger to have impact you had to hack the blood pool system... the only thing that has changed is that now its the oppossite.

[jamiemalk]

V20 was NOT flexible, saying it doesn’t make it true. I literarly gave you an example. HUNGER HAD ZERO IMPACT IN VTM20.. It did nothing ZERO. So if you wanted hunger to have impact you had to hack the blood pool system... the only thing that has changed is that now its the oppossite.

Now, this is just a lie. If you chose not to use the hunger frenzy mechanics or roleplay your characters hunger, that's your failing, not the system's.

You're saying that V5 is more flexible, and i'm giving you a chance to prove it by being able to replicate something from the "inferior" system without a house rule...

Shouting doesn't help, an actual answer would...

[xguild]

Now, this is just a lie. If you chose not to use the hunger frenzy mechanics or roleplay your characters hunger, that's your failing, not the system's.

You're saying that V5 is more flexible, and i'm giving you a chance to prove it by being able to replicate something from the "inferior" system without a house rule...

Shouting doesn't help, an actual answer would...

Ok I’m not sure explaining it a third time is going to make it any clearer.

You don’t want to play Vampires who are always hungry and in V5, the way the system works, this is the default. A simple change (removing the must kill to remove all hunger) is needed to fix that problem.

Now, I want to play a vampire who is ALWAYS hungry. Show me the default rule in VTM20 that does that.

Let me save you the trouble, it doesn’t exist. In VTM20 you are ONLY hungry when you are low on blood pool, which after 2 decades of playing the game I can count on 1 hand the amount of times it has actually happened in a game,

[Heavy Arms]

What possible gains could we get from a conversation?

Why do you keep engaging me in conversation? You can just ignore my posts.

See, I don't think you're doing all this because you really think this will add to the peace and calm of the board, or demonstrate your points to a side audience. Do you really not have anything more to do than try to provoke me with barbs about how dumb my opinions are when I attempt to reply to the conversation we were already having? Because it certainly seems that way.

And you're doing it to other people. Don't think nobody notices the inane, "I question wether you have actually ever run or played in an RPG." quip.

I think the fact that the most vocal V5 defenders only responses to criticism are ad hominem dismissals, provocative language designed to inflame people instead of communicating effectively with them, specious off-the-make arguments, and a complete lack of empathy... is just a really bad indicator for the future health of the fandom.

Now, this is just a lie. If you chose not to use the hunger frenzy mechanics or roleplay your characters hunger, that's your failing, not the system's.

We've pointed this out before.

Shouting doesn't help, an actual answer would...

I know... but we're probably never getting one for some strange reason.

[NEN]

I care about the lore instead of the mechanics and rules, but, since the changes related to those things also altered the lore in a way I don't like, plus, the very obvious, we-mean-this, in-your-face approach they're giving to their writing, the characters, the Kindred and their society, and also, the role of Mortals, including many other things, that new edition just ruined VTM for me.

It's really depressing they did all the things I hoped and I thought it was impossible they'd do that, considering the IP they have, but, they did just those things, in the end.

VTM could have led the genre once again, now, part of those changes just made it one more product of the bunch and I could find something similar anywhere else.

[jamiemalk]

Ok I’m not sure explaining it a third time is going to make it any clearer.

You don’t want to play Vampires who are always hungry and in V5, the way the system works, this is the default. A simple change (removing the must kill to remove all hunger) is needed to fix that problem.

Now, I want to play a vampire who is ALWAYS hungry. Show me the default rule in VTM20 that does that.

Let me save you the trouble, it doesn’t exist. In VTM20 you are ONLY hungry when you are low on blood pool, which after 2 decades of playing the game I can count on 1 hand the amount of times it has actually happened in a game,

Take one flaw, guilt-wracked. You have to take a conscience check every time you want to feed and avoid doing it as much as possible. You will often be on low blood and subject to feeding frenzy. Then roleplay it.

You could take a couple of flaws together, say thin blood and 14/15 gen. Tiny bloodpool and everything costs more, so you'll be dancing on the edge of hunger constantly.

Take restricted diet, precluding animal blood, only human and kindred vitae for you.


Easy to make an always hungry only feeding on human shaped prey vampire. If, you know, you Need rules to tell you how to roleplay.

If you've only been on low blood once in 20 years, I don't know what to tell you, i've never seen a game go longer than about four sessions without a low blood situation...


But, you were going to tell me how V5 lets me do the same, so how do i generate a non killing to be full Kindred?

[xguild]

Take one flaw, guilt-wracked. You have to take a conscience check every time you want to feed and avoid doing it as much as possible. You will often be on low blood and subject to feeding frenzy. Then roleplay it.

You could take a couple of flaws together, say thin blood and 14/15 gen. Tiny bloodpool and everything costs more, so you'll be dancing on the edge of hunger constantly.

Take restricted diet, precluding animal blood, only human and kindred vitae for you.


Easy to make an always hungry only feeding on human shaped prey vampire. If, you know, you Need rules to tell you how to roleplay.

If you've only been on low blood once in 20 years, I don't know what to tell you, i've never seen a game go longer than about four sessions without a low blood situation...


But, you were going to tell me how V5 lets me do the same, so how do i generate a non killing to be full Kindred?

I already told you, make a house rule that you don’t have to kill someone to get full.

My rule required a 6 word sentence, your required me to look up several rules only to discover that not all of them are in the core rulebook.

A system that has a metric ton of rules to cover everything is not more flexible than a system that has fewer rules that are easy to adapt.

I dont need rules to tell me how to roleplay, I want rules that give me direction on how to roleplaying.