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High generation Meths?

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  • High generation Meths?

    I know no meths NPCs are higher than 7 gens . And this was mentioned in Forum (Because 8+ gens are limited , their powers can't make them survive some really powerful beings , like , Werewolf Elders . ) But can such low gens vampires survive thousands of years ?
    Ah , I think they may have some methods . But the only one I recall is True Faith ... I think if they have really powerful TF (6+) , they can survive it .
    My friend told me one or two 8th guys like this ,but I haven't seen , any has ideas?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
    I know no meths NPCs are higher than 7 gens . And this was mentioned in Forum (Because 8+ gens are limited , their powers can't make them survive some really powerful beings , like , Werewolf Elders . ) But can such low gens vampires survive thousands of years ?
    Ah , I think they may have some methods . But the only one I recall is True Faith ... I think if they have really powerful TF (6+) , they can survive it .
    My friend told me one or two 8th guys like this ,but I haven't seen , any has ideas?
    There's Lucien in Gary.

    He's 8th generation and 2000 years old.

    Also, Tariq the Silent.

    You don't need to be Low Generation to survive the Jyhad a very long time BUT if you don't have the upper tier powers, you're not going to be what most people think of as a Methuselah. You're going to be a very very versatile elder.

    It's why I often think Dracula would be a better character as an 8th generation vampire. He doesn't need to be a vampire god to have a broad selection of powers.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-12-2018, 10:07 AM.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      There's Lucien in Gary.

      He's 8th generation and 2000 years old.

      Also, Tariq the Silent.
      I know the second guy , but I remember his generation is weakened . he is originally 5th gens .
      The first guy ... is that in V20 ? What does his condition ?
      Yeah , I also think 5th gen is too powerful to Dracula , he is too Young .
      Uh , I used to create one 8th gens guy , he has TF 8 , and of course all Lv.5 Attributes . Some important abilities above 5 (Like Occult ) , and lots of Lv.5 Abilities and Disciplines . Some Lv.6 Numinas and Lv.5 , including some very rare powers (Even Shih Qiaos ) . I set him as a hunter , hunting supernatural beings for hundreds of years . This leaves a lot to me.
      Last edited by Rock113; 09-12-2018, 11:00 AM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Rock113 View Post

        I know the second guy , but I remember his generation is weakened . he is 5th gens .
        The first guy ... is that in V20 ? What does his condition ?
        No, in the original Baptism by Fire.

        He's the second Gangrel character after Malcolm.

        http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Lucian_(Gangrel)
        Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-12-2018, 10:44 AM.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #5
          Strictly speaking Methuselhas are mostly 4th or 5th generation, since only them can 8 and 9 dots of a discipline, where there are the real power gap with common elders.

          Then there are also some Methuselahs of the 6th and 7th generation (just a few), but they are "second rate" Methuselah.

          A Methuselha of weak blood (8+), has no chance of beating his enemies in the jyhad , and I would never call it a methsuelah, a very old elder maybe, but not a methuselah for sure.
          A Methuselah of the 8th generation will have just Int 5, while someone like Menele will have 9. He will outsmart you in a matter of seconds.
          Last edited by Undead rabbit; 09-12-2018, 10:45 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
            Strictly speaking Methuselhas are mostly 4th or 5th generation, since only them can 8 and 9 dots of a discipline, where there are the real power gap with common elders.

            Then there are also some Methuselahs of the 6th and 7th generation (just a few), but they are "second rate" Methuselah.

            A Methuselha of weak blood (8+), has no chance of beating his enemies in the jyhad , and I would never call it a methsuelah, a very old elder maybe, but not a methuselah for sure.
            A Methuselah of the 8th generation will have just Int 5, while someone like Menele will have 9. He will outsmart you in a matter of seconds.
            But if they(and other weaker beings ) have some really powerful Numinas , Can they beat Meths ? Can TF work ? My friend used to argue how an Badass imbued with all Lv.5 Edges and Lv.8 TF can beat a meths singly ... (I know this kind of imbued is a joke , but can he do it? )
            Last edited by Rock113; 09-12-2018, 10:54 AM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

              No, in the original Baptism by Fire.

              He's the second Gangrel character after Malcolm.

              http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Lucian_(Gangrel)
              But he just appears in 1st and 2ed , I think he is similar to Samuel Haight .

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              • #8
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                You don't need to be Low Generation to survive the Jyhad a very long time BUT if you don't have the upper tier powers, you're not going to be what most people think of as a Methuselah. You're going to be a very very versatile elder.

                It's why I often think Dracula would be a better character as an 8th generation vampire. He doesn't need to be a vampire god to have a broad selection of powers.
                Because most people don't have a consistent definition of what a "Methuselah" is. V20 offers three:
                1. Methuselah is a vampire older than a 1000 years old.
                2. Methuselah is a vampire of the 4th or 5th generation.
                3. Methuselah is a vampire who does not participate in the kindred society.

                As such going by the label "Methuselah" is a dangerous folly. It could mean an ancient 13th gen capable of squashing you with a thought. It could mean a fledgeling 4th gen sired by an awoken Antediluvian, a kind of vampire you can squash with a thought. Or it could just mean someone of no particular generation or power.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Rock113 View Post

                  But if they(and other weaker beings ) have some really powerful Numinas , Can they beat Meths ? Can TF work ? My friend used to argue how an Badass imbued with all Lv.5 Edges and Lv.8 TF can beat a meths singly ... (I know this kind of imbued is a joke , but can he do it? )
                  Nope. And I dare say that TF8 is beyond rare, it's something that maybe has One every 10 billions.

                  In theory, a mortal might have a Faith rating
                  of greater than 5, but these people are one in a
                  billion
                  — the sort of people who are venerated
                  as saints. They are unlikely to enter a chronicle,
                  but their powers would be enormous.

                  Let's say you fight Menele, who has celerity 9. Every Attack or dodge Menele does has 9 automatic success. To those 9 automatic success you must add 24 dice that he rolls.

                  All of that multiplied for 9 times each turn.

                  Let's say you fight a Gangrel like Enkidu, but lets just say he has Protean 9 instead of animalism 9.

                  Every damage you do to him get halved before the soak roll, then he soaks and then whatever damage is still there get halved again.

                  And he does 14 actions per turn (celerity 7 + 7 extra actions thanks to Protean 9 inward focus)

                  and they have higher initiative
                  Last edited by Undead rabbit; 09-12-2018, 11:44 AM.

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                  • #10
                    http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Lucian_(Gangrel)
                    8th Generation Gangrel
                    http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Yael
                    9th Generation Salubri (might be dead, I couldn't check the book and the wiki seems unclear.)
                    http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Hrothulf
                    8th Generation Ventrue
                    Gracis Nostinus is another 8th generation Ventrue from MiBN. Was embraced in 412 and is 8th generation.

                    Supposedly there might be a few more in Jerusalem by Night and Veil of Night, but I can't verify and they aren't on the wikia. But anyway, a High Generation Kindred can take an Elder Werewolf in a fist fight (probably, depending on stats). Any smart Methuselah probably will make sure they don't have to, though. High level disciplines and stats can be very helpful. But at the end of the day, keeping a low profile and being lucky can be a big part of surviving.



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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post

                      Nope. And I dare say that TF8 is beyond rare, it's something that maybe has One every 10 billions.

                      Let's say you fight Menele, Who has celerity 9. Every Attack or dodge Menele does has 9 automatic success. To those 9 automatic success you must add 24 dice that he rolls.

                      All of that multiplied for 9 times each turn.

                      Let's say you fight a Gangrel like enkidu, but lets Just say he has Protean 9 instead of animalism 9.

                      Every damage you do to him get halved before the soak roll, then he soaks and then whatever damage is still there get halved again.

                      And he does 14 actions per turn (celerity 7 + 7 extra actions thanks to Protean 9 inward focus)

                      and they have higher initiative
                      ..So Meths are really Nightmares to other races ?
                      Uh , I used to argue with my friends , How many guys in other races can beat a Meth singly ? We think many and delete many , we think some Legendary shifters may defeat some low Meths ( 7 gens )? Mage and Kuei-jin , Demon are OK ( I think some powerful mage Masters can take down one through dark methods ? I know mages' system are different ). Wraith and Fae , Mummy are certainly not .Imbued was argued Much time...
                      Last edited by Rock113; 09-12-2018, 11:54 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                        http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Lucian_(Gangrel)
                        8th Generation Gangrel
                        http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Yael
                        9th Generation Salubri (might be dead, I couldn't check the book and the wiki seems unclear.)
                        http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Hrothulf
                        8th Generation Ventrue
                        Gracis Nostinus is another 8th generation Ventrue from MiBN. Was embraced in 412 and is 8th generation.

                        Supposedly there might be a few more in Jerusalem by Night and Veil of Night, but I can't verify and they aren't on the wikia. But anyway, a High Generation Kindred can take an Elder Werewolf in a fist fight (probably, depending on stats). Any smart Methuselah probably will make sure they don't have to, though. High level disciplines and stats can be very helpful. But at the end of the day, keeping a low profile and being lucky can be a big part of surviving.


                        Many guys' stats in Jerusalem by Night are just typo . And , does 8+ gens (8-15) elders have difficulties beating an Rank 4 or 5 elder singly ? I remember I haven't do tests ...

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                        • #13
                          If high gen Methuselahs exist, they'd be rarer than a three headed sheep with a Disco obsession.

                          Please understand ... vampires create other vampires when they are not only lonely, but also when they might not turn out to be a threat to their food supply. Truly ancient vampires would have come from a time when only a very few kindred existed because human civilization only allowed for a very few of their kind to exist without risking 'drying up' the steady supply of fresh blood.

                          Take a look at human population growth through the ages and you'll notice that the *overwhelming* majority of it has happened in the last century. So the odds of a powerful vamp then embracing several generations worth down back in those days is near impossible. It's only the massive modern day population boom that allowed for such a large number of vampires and spread of generation to exist. It has nothing to do with weaker potency making them more fragile and everything to do with vampires not wishing to embrace their own competition.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                            Many guys' stats in Jerusalem by Night are just typo .
                            Fair enough. We have canonical examples either way.
                            And , does 8+ gens (8-15) elders have difficulties beating an Rank 4 or 5 elder singly ? I remember I haven't do tests ...
                            Probably difficult, yes. I haven't bothered testing it either. But Rank 5 Werewolves can do rather impressive feats with their gifts.

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                            • #15
                              Rank 5 can match Methuselahs on a One on one, just as Masters in Mage.

                              But there isn't much more that can go on even ground.

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