High generation Meths?

[Kael03]

I think it depends on how you view vampires.

Because the Technocracy killed Ravnos with solar mirrors and three nukes.

To be fair, that was also after 3 straight days of fighting multiple packs of Garou, 3 Bodhisattva, and multiple other vampires that weren't instantly consumed by him. It's not like they did it on their own.

[False Epiphany]

There's Lucien in Gary.

He's 8th generation and 2000 years old.

Also, Tariq the Silent.

These guys were the first to jump to mind for me. Hrothulf and Gracis aren't too far behind.

There's also Stalest Coursain in Vancouver (7th gen, Embraced 552 BCE) and Khentik-Kert in The Ashen Knight (7th gen, Embraced 1380 BCE). There's also a smattering of 10th-generation characters Embraced in the Middle Ages who've survived to the present day.

So they exist, but "natural selection" clearly kills off most higher-generation vampires over the millennia. Others give in to the temptation to commit diablerie. But there's a few who don't and manage to survive.

"Versatile elders" is a good way to describe how they're viewed. Never underestimate a vampire who's managed to survive 2,000 years, but they won't command the respect of a 5th-generation demigod. Baptism by Fire made a point of saying that Lucien was looked down upon for having blood as weak as a modern neonate's. (Though that didn't make much sense to me at eighth generation. I could buy him being ninth, or even higher.)

[CTPhipps]

To be fair, that was also after 3 straight days of fighting multiple packs of Garou, 3 Bodhisattva, and multiple other vampires that weren't instantly consumed by him. It's not like they did it on their own.

yeah but I admit the Antes power and the Meths got way way out of hand. It's a game which has characters the players can't interact with or oppose or even deal with.

Thematic? Perhaps.

But not really useful in-game.

So, bombing Ur-Shulgi was a statement of, "THIS IS WHY THE MASQUERADE EXISTS!"

[Undead rabbit]

I really don't see that much of a problem with chtonic gods in the setting.

Do players of D&D complains that they can't kill Torm, Asmodeus or the Lady of Pain?

[Kalendeer]

yeah but I admit the Antes power and the Meths got way way out of hand. It's a game which has characters the players can't interact with or oppose or even deal with.

Thematic? Perhaps.

But not really useful in-game.

So, bombing Ur-Shulgi was a statement of, "THIS IS WHY THE MASQUERADE EXISTS!"

I am currently doing a mini-gehenna campaign involving Tremere, Saulot's Beast and "nice" Saulot and I disagree that no player can interact with them. Of course, I planned the campaign so the players could actually talk to them and even do things that has impact (one of the plot involves chosing if Goratrix or Tremere is supposed to become his "default personnality", a choice that has far reaching consquences for the world around them), so I ensure that the plot twists will allow them to do so. And I am planning to drop a skygrasper on Tremere so they may even decide to kill him if they hunt him right after that.

"Nice" Saulot is actually an indestructible docile McGuffin that makes no choice on his own since leaving his Beast behind deprived him of all his drive, so there's a PC babysitting him full time trying to piece whatever informations she can get from him. I think I should call him Zelda Saulot because there is another plot that involves him getting abducted (and just waiting to be saved basically, with Fortitude 10, Obeah 10 and a high level of Vicissitude, it's not like anyone can really hurt him, but the PCs will want him back for obvious reasons). I am also very curious so see if they will be tempted to abuse his powers since he can do pretty swag things with his Obeah and they just need to ask, but of course that would have unforseen bad consequences.

The only one they cannot talk to is Saulot's Beast, because he would blast any of them with his Presence and leave them drooling and begging about Salvation, but the whole plot is about defeating him and I definitly want the PCs to have the kill.

I admit I didn't exactly pick some of the most ridiculously overpowered antediluvian, and perhaps this view of Ante interacting with Elder PCs may be shocking to some, but we are having fun

[CTPhipps]

I really don't see that much of a problem with chtonic gods in the setting.

Do players of D&D complains that they can't kill Torm, Asmodeus or the Lady of Pain?

I do.

I think they distract from the mystery and grandeur of the setting as well as railroad. There's a difference between an Antediluvian in the Book of Nod and who might be pulling your strings and an Antediluvian who is going to kill you becaue you're Muslim.

And before we talk about how the books didn't do that:

Assamites
Tremere Antitribu
Ravnos

Also, the random murder of the Daughters of Cacophony's male members--which I gotta say I'm not sure what that was about.

Three major groups of characters utterly screwed up by Antediluvians essentially walking into your game and throwing around crap.

That was my biggest issue with Revised.

But I also am very much that the only Methuselah who should openly acting is Mithras and we saw how that ended.

Edit:

I also feel like adding that bombing Ur-Shulgi and killing him plus his followers isn't a "fuck you" to the character but an actual plot point in my game. It was about illustrating that human technology was now a threat to even the strongest players in the Jyhad and that no elders were truly safe. It also indicated that humans could potentially destroy vampirekind--even the strongest--if they ever knew about the Masquerade.

It also left the Assamite clan deeply divided and confused.

[Undead rabbit]

Yeah and what's the difference with Bane destroying Iachtu Xvim cult and taking over the Zentharim, or the Lady of Pain rail-roading you into a Maze o Khelben blackstaff creating a schism among the harpist? Or if we take Shadowrun into account Lofwyr making the Anarch state of Berlin collapse or Ghostwalker conquering Denver and banishing every Aztec there?

Yeah big players change the setting and the world trembles at their whim, the players are not the ultimate movers and shakers of the setting but people living thorugh the change of the metaplot.
Can't think a game where this doesn't happen.

Shadowrun has the Dragons and the Corps, Cyberpunk has the Corps CEOs, Forgotten Realm has Gods, demigods, dragons, Epic level NPCs..., Ascension has the Archmasters, Awakening has the Aeons and the Exarch, Werewolf has the Incarna, Wraith the Death Lords, Warhammer 40k has...everyone but you (hello Primarchs, Demon's Lords and company, are you there?).

[Prometheas]

Thematically, I kinda like the idea that the Antes Aren't blood gods.

I liked the 2nd edition's take on level 10 disciplines, being powerful but ultimately simple things like restoring a single dead person at obeah 10 or a ritual to come back as a wraith with all your abilities on death at necromancy 10. They made ante's seem like old beings capable of miraculous things, but still fallible and ultimately fragile if they tried to flant themselves to the masses. I think that idea fits the theme of vampire better as well.

Your elders aren't terrifying in the sense that they can punch superman, they're terrifying because they're out of touch, petty, and hyper-paranoid monsters that've been manipulating the world from behind the scenes for millennia and regard your young vampire as something somewhere between a dangerous idiot, a pawn and a full-course dinner.

Week of Nightmares as such rubs me the wrong way, as from my point of view it misses the point. Why the heck would ravnos run out of his tomb half-asleep and trying to conquer china? An old manipulator like him should have started slowly draining the population of Kuei jin supporters while replacing them with Almost perfect illusions, trapped his enemies one by one in La-La land while he reprogrammed their vacant bodies via dominate, or pulled some grade A horror movie material. Trying to explode mountains like goku from Dragonball Z sound like Mage material.

[Undead rabbit]

Ravnos was in frenzy when the week of nightmare happened. It's one of the reason he got destroyed. He awakened not by his choice, but for the smell of the blood of the Ravnos clan.

[CTPhipps]

Yeah and what's the difference with Bane destroying Iachtu Xvim cult and taking over the Zentharim, or the Lady of Pain rail-roading you into a Maze o Khelben blackstaff creating a schism among the harpist? Or if we take Shadowrun into account Lofwyr making the Anarch state of Berlin collapse or Ghostwalker conquering Denver and banishing every Aztec there?

Is the answer going to displease you if I say, "You shouldn't have gods fuck with the PCs unless the PCs can fuck with the gods back?"

I hate the Netherese and their 30th level characters and that if they exist, the PCs should be able to wipe them out.

Same in Star Wars.

Darth Vader should be killable even if it's not EASY.

Ravnos was in frenzy when the week of nightmare happened. It's one of the reason he got destroyed. He awakened not by his choice, but for the smell of the blood of the Ravnos clan.

Which gets to my point, really.

If Ravnos is fighting 1,000 lupines at once, then he's not doing it right.

We actually had a discussion of the Clan Novels at one point in-game in the 90s where one of the PCs said the Eye of Hazmiel was the ultimate gag gift. "You put it in your eye, Hazmiel uses Dominate to possess you and then uses his disciplines through you to wreck shit up. That's the only time a Methuselah will display his power directly--when he's in no actual danger."

[Rock113]

There are no Archmasters with archmastery in every sphere.
The most powerful Mage ever, Al Aswad, had archmastery in only 5 sphere.

That said, It depends: Yes archmages can match (and outmatch) Methuselahs. But It depends in the Archmage.

Even more Ur shulgi is not the common Methuselah, and his Thaumaturgy 9 gives him a plethora of tools to shield himself against true magic.

But , Al-aswad just has 5 Archspheres doesn't mean there is no Archmage having all Lv.6 Spheres. Because distribution of the EXP is up to you . Al-aswad can make his Spheres all over Lv.5, but he may not have some very high Spheres .

[Monalfie]

Is the answer going to displease you if I say, "You shouldn't have gods fuck with the PCs unless the PCs can fuck with the gods back?"

I'd say it somewhat depends on the context, but generally agree. Once ran an entire D&D game that was based around the players trying to kill a recently ascended god.
Personally, I think the entire 'this is evidence humans are still a threat' is a good point to make. Even if I would have perhaps done is a bit differently than you did (with destroying Alamut).

[Undead rabbit]

But , Al-aswad just has 5 Archspheres doesn't mean there is no Archmage having all Lv.6 Spheres. Because distribution of the EXP is up to you . Al-aswad can make his Spheres all over Lv.5, but he may not have some very high Spheres .

Al Asward is the most powerful mage that has ever existed, period. There are no characters in the history of Mage with more than 5 archsphere. Truth be said, with the exception of Al-Aswad there are no characters with more than ONE archsphere.

Porthos, the most powerful archmage of the traditions, had just one archsphere. Same for Voormas, who was the most powerful after Porthos died.


Besides, from Horizon Fortress of Hope.


Archmage template:
Attributes: Strength 2, Dexterity 2, Stamina 2, Charisma 1
to 5, Manipulation 5, Appearance 1 to 5, Perception 5,
Intelligence 5, Wits 2 to 5
Abilities: (anything you like at 3 to 5 dots)
Optional Abilities: (anything you like at 3 to 5 dots)
Backgrounds: Allies 6+, Arcane 5, Avatar 5, Chantry 3 to
5,Destiny 4, Familiar 5, Influence 1 to 5, Library 6+, Node
2to 5, Resources 6+, Sanctum 5, Talisman 2 to 5
Spheres: 30 to 45 dots in any combination, at least 5 in four
andpossibly 6 in one or two
Arete: 10
Willpower: 10
Quintessence: 15+
Paradox: a or lots
Equipment: (See above, although foci and weapons are rare
atthis stage.)
Notes:The handful of archmages who exist are a varied lot.
Someare amazingly charismatic and physically perfect specimens,
while others are tottering ancients with addled minds.
Unlessan archmage takes pains to conceal her nature, the aura
ofpowershe projects will be obvious even to Sleepers. These
magesare often centuries old, and can be unpredictable.



So no, no mage with 6 in every sphere. But I dare say no mage with 6 in more than 2 or 3 spheres.

[Rock113]

Al Asward is the most powerful mage that has ever existed, period. There are no characters in the history of Mage with more than 5 archsphere. Truth be said, with the exception of Al-Aswad there are no characters with more than ONE archsphere.

Porthos, the most powerful archmage of the traditions, had just one archsphere. Same for Voormas, who was the most powerful after Porthos died.


Besides, from Horizon Fortress of Hope.


Archmage template:
Attributes: Strength 2, Dexterity 2, Stamina 2, Charisma 1
to 5, Manipulation 5, Appearance 1 to 5, Perception 5,
Intelligence 5, Wits 2 to 5
Abilities: (anything you like at 3 to 5 dots)
Optional Abilities: (anything you like at 3 to 5 dots)
Backgrounds: Allies 6+, Arcane 5, Avatar 5, Chantry 3 to
5,Destiny 4, Familiar 5, Influence 1 to 5, Library 6+, Node
2to 5, Resources 6+, Sanctum 5, Talisman 2 to 5
Spheres: 30 to 45 dots in any combination, at least 5 in four
andpossibly 6 in one or two
Arete: 10
Willpower: 10
Quintessence: 15+
Paradox: a or lots
Equipment: (See above, although foci and weapons are rare
atthis stage.)
Notes:The handful of archmages who exist are a varied lot.
Someare amazingly charismatic and physically perfect specimens,
while others are tottering ancients with addled minds.
Unlessan archmage takes pains to conceal her nature, the aura
ofpowershe projects will be obvious even to Sleepers. These
magesare often centuries old, and can be unpredictable.



So no, no mage with 6 in every sphere. But I dare say no mage with 6 in more than 2 or 3 spheres.

Ah , I know . in fact , I always think Al-aswad is an exception in Mage . No one can match him singly (two or even three Aswadims can do match him ) .
But , Is it possible that a mage has all Lv.5 Spheres ?
The only one I recall is an AI in a technocrat Book (maybe Loom of Fate ) ,but he can't use them efficiently. And can this kind of mage match some Meths? I know Spheres'system is different from Disciplines' ...

[Monalfie]

Al Asward is the most powerful mage that has ever existed, period. There are no characters in the history of Mage with more than 5 archsphere. Truth be said, with the exception of Al-Aswad there are no characters with more than ONE archsphere.

Porthos, the most powerful archmage of the traditions, had just one archsphere. Same for Voormas, who was the most powerful after Porthos died.


Besides, from Horizon Fortress of Hope.


Archmage template:
Attributes: Strength 2, Dexterity 2, Stamina 2, Charisma 1
to 5, Manipulation 5, Appearance 1 to 5, Perception 5,
Intelligence 5, Wits 2 to 5
Abilities: (anything you like at 3 to 5 dots)
Optional Abilities: (anything you like at 3 to 5 dots)
Backgrounds: Allies 6+, Arcane 5, Avatar 5, Chantry 3 to
5,Destiny 4, Familiar 5, Influence 1 to 5, Library 6+, Node
2to 5, Resources 6+, Sanctum 5, Talisman 2 to 5
Spheres: 30 to 45 dots in any combination, at least 5 in four
andpossibly 6 in one or two
Arete: 10
Willpower: 10
Quintessence: 15+
Paradox: a or lots
Equipment: (See above, although foci and weapons are rare
atthis stage.)
Notes:The handful of archmages who exist are a varied lot.
Someare amazingly charismatic and physically perfect specimens,
while others are tottering ancients with addled minds.
Unlessan archmage takes pains to conceal her nature, the aura
ofpowershe projects will be obvious even to Sleepers. These
magesare often centuries old, and can be unpredictable.



So no, no mage with 6 in every sphere. But I dare say no mage with 6 in more than 2 or 3 spheres.

I think his point is that mechanically you can still build a non-canon character stronger than Al Asward, having more Archspheres. That nothing in the system would inherently preclude that. Now I don't know if that's accurate (I'm not well versed in Mage), but I don't know of anything that would prevent it.