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  • #16
    Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post

    Every homid pup with the Rank 1 gift Master of Fire could kill him with one shot.
    Needs something a bit more fireproof then.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #17
      You need disciplines 6+ to cover the gap. Otherwise you get spanked. Nothing less than a powerful Elder can match a "mere" rank 3 werewolf.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Talvas View Post
        So, I was thinking the werewolf superiority is BS but obviously exists. Hypthetically, pulling things from all over could you create a kindred who mows down werewolves? Let points fly to the wind, no starting types, say 7th or 6th gen max. any and all merits and flaws allowed, using v20 rules but allow literally any extra things you can think of from any Vampire edition.
        If you're 6th generation you don't need anything special, you just need the requisite XP and you can become a werewolf destroyer with the basic nine disciplines.

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        • #19
          Let's suppose a conservative 3 potence celerity and fortitude... What kind of garou would beat the build I posted previously?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by SpiritCrusher View Post
            Let's suppose a conservative 3 potence celerity and fortitude... What kind of garou would beat the build I posted previously?
            Most of them.

            1)Your fetish need an activation roll to work, and creating a 5 point fetish is difficult by the way

            A fetish is activated by rolling the user’s Willpower
            (difficulty equals the fetish’s power level + 3)
            . A botch
            on this roll destroys the physical component of the fetish
            and frees the spirit that was trapped within.
            2) Your fetish armor will not give you a 10 soak bonus, fetish of spirit manipulation enache skills, not soak or similar

            Creating and maintaining a fetish is difficult; because of
            this, the number of fetishes a thaumaturge may create is
            limited by her Willpower. If the thaumaturge gives away
            said fetish, it still counts against her total available slots.
            She may only create an additional fetish when one of
            her previous fetishes has been destroyed.
            A fetish grants a number of bonus dice to a specific
            skill
            comparable to the level of the fetish. For example,
            a healing spirit trapped inside a scalpel would grant
            extra dice (the level of the fetish) for any Medicine roll.

            The Storyteller always has final authority on what sort
            of fetish can be made.
            3)Your build postulate that you have time to prepare yourself, if you have time to prepare youself you must assume werewolves can too.

            4)Werewolves will just kill you from the Umbra, where you cannot see them or reach them, and some Auspex will not help since they are not invisible, they are on another dimension.

            5)Werewolves have fetish too, better than the one Spirit Thauma gives you, and they will use them.

            6) Berserk doesn't let you make complex action, and it doesn't influence your dodges

            You possess the ability to willingly enter a berserker state
            for a scene. While berserking, you ignore wound penalties
            and reduce the difficulty of all combat rolls except for
            dodges by -3. You also can take no complex actions other
            than combat, dodging, or running.

            This means

            A) You cannot spot ambushes or doing anything complex, while they can

            B) So you would have your normal dicepool to dodge, which means that if you don't dodge the first attack of the wolf you are dead


            Even more, you can't use Berserk merit and Focused Mind 5 together.

            ••••• Perfect Clarity
            Perfect Clarity brings about a Zen-like moment of
            focused insight for the thaumaturge as she gains a brief,
            perfect understanding of herself, the universe, and her
            place within it. This lucidity protects the thaumaturge
            from influences both internal and external; even the
            Beast within is unable to rage forth. Thought and action
            become one as a complete serenity of the mind descends
            upon the thaumaturge.
            System: Perfect Clarity lasts for the duration of one
            scene, (or one turn plus an additional turn for every
            success on the activation roll if used while in combat).
            For this period, the thaumaturge has the difficulties of
            all actions reduced by two. The Kindred is immune to
            frenzy and Rötschreck from all sources, even supernatural
            triggers.
            Finally, any means to control or influence the
            thaumaturge suffer a +2 difficulty, including powers such
            as Presence, Dominate, and Dementation.

            And Focused Mind 2 cannot be used on yourself

            •• Centering
            By invoking this power, the thaumaturge causes a
            sudden, intense calmness in the subject by whispering
            soothing words to her.
            While under this serenity, the
            target is better able to focus on tasks at hand, ignoring
            distractions and annoyances, including grave bodily harm.
            Thaumaturges in fear of frenzy often use this power on
            themselves to stifle their own emotions and achieve a
            state of tranquility.

            System: This power is usable on any one subject within
            earshot of the thaumaturge and lasts for one turn per
            success on the activation roll
            . During this period, the
            target is unaffected
            by any power or effect (with the
            notable exception of Elder disciplines) that reduces her
            dice pools. This includes wound penalties, situational
            modifiers, and Disciplines. Modifications to difficulty
            numbers still apply during this time, however. In addition,
            due to the unnatural serenity that this power bestows,
            the target receives two additional dice in all attempts to
            avoid or break frenzy.
            as for close combat It might work against werewolves up to rank 2, at rank 3 it would be smeared.





            Let's take for example an Ahorun get of fenris rank 3





            Spirit of the Fray (Level Two) — A cat-spirit
            grants the Ahroun the Gift of blinding speed and lightning
            reflexes, permitting her to strike before any foe.
            System: Once the Ahroun learns this Gift, its effects
            are permanent. She adds 10 to all her initiative rolls, and
            if she chooses, may spend a Gnosis point to add another
            10 to an initiative roll (such an expenditure prevents
            spending Rage for extra actions, however).



            Troll Skin (Level Two) — The Fenrir draws on the
            power of the earth for protection. Her skin grows tough
            and thick, covered with stony knots of hard, armored
            flesh. An earth elemental teaches this Gift.
            System: The player spends one Gnosis point and
            rolls Stamina + Primal-Urge (difficulty 7). The character
            receives an extra die per success on all soak rolls for the
            rest of the scene (damage from silver remains unsoakable).
            The character suffers +1 difficulty to all Social rolls save
            for Intimidation while this Gift is in effect.


            Wind Claws (Level Three) — The Ahroun’s
            claws and fangs pass through the flimsy protections of
            their enemies as though they were but air and hope. An
            air elemental teaches this Gift.
            System: The player spends one Rage point. For the
            rest of the turn, all of the Ahroun’s attacks completely
            ignore any armor (mundane or magical) that targets
            might be wearing;
            the targets forfeit all soak dice from
            such protection.




            Might of Thor (Level Three) — The werewolf can
            increase his strength tremendously, the better to slay his
            foes. A wolf-spirit teaches this Gift.
            System: The player spends one Gnosis and one Rage,
            then rolls Willpower (difficulty 8). The Garou’s Strength
            doubles for one turn per success. This Gift can only be
            used once per scene.
            Non combat Garou will just work around those defenses


            A Theurge for example will just ask your Fetish to shut down and do not work for the subsequent fight.

            Command Spirit (Level Two) — The Theurge can
            give commands to spirits she meets and expect obedience.
            The Gift doesn’t grant the ability to summon spirits —
            only to compel them to obey. As always when dealing
            with spirits, clear wording is essential, as some clever
            spirits may attempt to twist the spirit of issued commands
            while obeying them to the letter. Any Incarna avatar can
            teach this Gift.
            System: The player spends a Willpower point and rolls
            Charisma + Leadership (difficulty is the spirit’s Gnosis). The
            character can issue successive commands once the spirit is
            under her control; each additional command requires that
            the player expend an additional Willpower point. The spirit
            cannot be ordered to leave a place or object (or, in the case
            of fomori, person…) to which it is bound.

            A Red Talon would just destroy your belongings, armor and sword alike

            Render Down (Level Three) — The Talon can
            destroy any man-made substance. Plastics, alloys, and
            other materials not found in nature disintegrate with just
            a touch. Lawn chairs dissolve into oily puddles and steel
            melts into iron and carbon.
            A cockroach-spirit teaches
            this Gift.
            System: The character must touch the material;
            only materials that are not naturally occurring are viable
            targets. For instance, a wooden table would be unaffected,
            whereas a plastic table would melt to the ground.
            The player makes a Rage roll (difficulty 7); each success
            reduces twenty pounds of the target material to its base
            components.
            Same for the Bone Gnawers

            Call the Rust (Level Three) — By whistling softly
            through his teeth, the werewolf can summon sudden and
            destructive rust onto any metal within his immediate
            vicinity. Guns corrode and jam, knives crumble, and cars
            become flaking hunks of junk. This Gift is taught by a
            water elemental.
            System: The player spends a point of Gnosis and rolls
            Wits + Crafts, with a difficulty depending on the amount
            of metal being corroded. A gun or knife would be difficulty
            6, while a car might be difficulty 8.
            Last edited by Undead rabbit; 09-14-2018, 10:18 AM.

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            • #21
              A Tzimisce Koldun seems effective given the absurd strength given to Koldunism.
              Way of Spirit five lets you sense everything within five miles and use other Paths within that perception.
              From there you can take your pick of Ways or Paths to savage your foe at your leisure. With Path of Wind as a good escape ability and Way of Water (or the ritual Refuge of the Thirsty Grave) to hide. Could probably swap rituals around in general (like Pool of Secrets and Conjure Spirit) to help.

              I imagine there's probably some really good Abyss Mystic build out there. Something like Obtenebration five with Ahriman's Wight or Claiming the Dark, Vision of Shadow, The Third Eye of Rickard Argentis, etc.

              I feel like there are probably some good Thaumaturgy builds, but I'm less sure how it would interact with Werewolves. Such as something like Movement of the Mind and Lure of Flames. Plus Mirror of Second Sight and Incorporeal Passage. Not sure how these would be easily overcome.

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              • #22
                A Malkavian who was focused on mental attacks and hiding could shred through a group of Garou. Just repeatedly hit them with Dementation powers while disguised or hidden, and eventually they'll be insane wrecks.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                  4)Werewolves will just kill you from the Umbra, where you cannot see them or reach them, and some Auspex will not help since they are not invisible, they are on another dimension.
                  Spirit Manipulation allows one to see into the Umbra. Five also lets you manipulate/interact with it, but he only mentioned up to four in his build.
                  Last edited by Monalfie; 09-14-2018, 10:20 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                    Spirit Manipulation allows one to see into the Umbra. Five also lets you manipulate/interact with it, but he only mentioned up to four in his build.

                    If he goes into Berserk he can't see into the Umbra (it requires an activation roll). He can only fight, dodge or run.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Thoth View Post
                      Any Assamite 13th generation with one dot in Quietus and two dots in Obfuscate. Put your ability dots into Firearms, Gun Smithing, and Demolitions. Backgrounds are simple enough since all you need is a couple of dots in Contacts for raw materials or parts and Resources to pay for them. Use an antimaterial rifle like an M95 with custom ammunition and a high quality scope. The lethal range of something like that is almost two miles with line of sight. Needless to say the character mortal backstory is a highly trained and skilled military sniper.
                      Obfuscate allows you to get into your sniping position or leave without being noticed, Quietus ensures no one will hear the shot being taken (which is the part of the bullet sound that allows directional back tracking), the military training means you only fire from such a position that your muzzle flash is hidden and you know better that to shoot repeatedly from the same spot.
                      On the off chance that your target survives and figures out your current position or more likely that the dead targets associates figure out your position, the Demolitions ability allows you to rig many fun surprises for anyone who tries to sneak up behind you or advance on your position. Alternatively you rig an area with explosives ahead of time and use sniper fire to drive the targets into the kill zone only to use a remote detonator to set things off.

                      This is a nice build, definitely a good idea. However how Obfuscate interacts with Garou is a contentious issue in crossovers; to be absolutely safe a higher level of Obfuscate would be a good idea.

                      There's a great merit for this situation called the 1000 Meters Club (-1 difficulty to all sniping rolls), and in terms of the lore 1000 Meters Club members are DEFINITELY the types who would snipe Garou to prove that they could.

                      Remember to use the Aim action! For each turn spent aiming you add +1 die to the pool, up to a maximum equal to your perception.

                      People who know about guns; are silver bullets real or made up?

                      So with a Dexterity pumped to 6 (simple preparation), Firearms of 5 (elite sniper type), a specialization in Scoped Rifles, Perception 5, and a high quality military rifle...

                      You're looking at 6 + 5 + 5 + 1 dice for your firing roll (17) at a difficulty of 5 with Spec. That's 8.6 successes.

                      So for damage, 9 + 8 (standard for Rifles) is 17 dice at difficulty 6, no spec. 6.9 levels of damage.

                      So the average shot here is 100% lethal to almost anyone. You could get unlucky of course. With Vampires, aim for the head if you want to do Lethal damage.
                      Last edited by 11twiggins; 09-14-2018, 10:42 AM.

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                      • #26
                        made up in real world, real in the world of darkness.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                          A Malkavian who was focused on mental attacks and hiding could shred through a group of Garou. Just repeatedly hit them with Dementation powers while disguised or hidden, and eventually they'll be insane wrecks.

                          Level 1 gift

                          Sense Wyrm (Level One) — The werewolf can
                          sense nearby manifestations of the Wyrm. This Gift
                          involves a mystical sense, not a visual or olfactory image,
                          although Garou often describe the Wyrm’s spiritual
                          emanations as a stench. This Gift doesn’t necessarily sense
                          dedication to the Wyrm, merely contact with its spiritual
                          essence, which can cling to even blameless souls. Sense
                          Wyrm requires active concentration; the spiritual sense
                          it provides doesn’t function passively. The Gift may be
                          taught by any Gaian spirit.

                          System: The player rolls Perception + Occult. The
                          difficulty depends on the concentration and strength of
                          the Wyrm’s influence: sensing a single fomor in the next
                          room would be difficulty 6, while detecting the stench of
                          a Bane that was in the room an hour ago would be difficulty
                          7. Vampires register as Wyrm-tainted, save those
                          with Humanity ratings of 7 or higher.
                          Last edited by Undead rabbit; 09-14-2018, 10:29 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                            If he goes into Berserk he can't see into the Umbra (it requires an activation roll). He can only fight, dodge or run.
                            Except you can activate it before going into frenzy. As you noted, I'd assume both sides would have time to prepare. Given this is premised as more of an in-world scenario.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                              Except you can activate it before going into frenzy. As you noted, I'd assume both sides would have time to prepare. Given this is premised as more of an in-world scenario.

                              It seems to me quite a stretch of the rules.
                              The merit is very clear: you can only fight, dodge or run. Nothing more.

                              Besides there is another problem: if he could activate before getting into frenzy, he then would try to attack every spirit he would see while in frenzy, and world around us is full of spirits, and spirits do not like Vampires, exspecially vampires with fetishes.
                              And the spirits would smack him at that point.

                              So I don't know if it is a good idea, it would simply multiply his enemies.
                              Last edited by Undead rabbit; 09-14-2018, 10:42 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                                It seems to me quite a stretch of the rules.
                                The merit is very clear: you can only fight, dodge or run. Nothing more.
                                Are you implying that berzerking makes someone blind? You activate the ability and it allows one to also see the Umbra for a scene as a passive ability. I don't see how possessing eyesight is a complex action here. And nothing about the power gives a need to maintain concentration.

                                Besides there is another problem: if he could activate before getting into frenzy, he then would try to attack every spirit he would see while in frenzy, and world around us is full of spirits, and spirits do not like Vampires, exspecially vampires with fetishes.
                                And the spirits would smack him at that point.
                                I thought we were talking about the Berzerker merit, not frenzy. The berserker state sounds like you can differentiate between targets.

                                So I don't know if it is a good idea, it would simply multiply his enemies.
                                I'm more inclined to say it is a bad idea because there's no reason to engage in a physical contest with a Werewolf, especially as a Thaumaturge, when there are so many other options that are safer.
                                Last edited by Monalfie; 09-14-2018, 10:49 AM.

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