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  • #31
    Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
    Are you implying that berzerking makes someone blind? You activate the ability and it allows one to also see the Umbra for a scene as a passive ability. I don't see how possessing eyesight is a complex action here. And nothing about the power gives a need to maintain concentration.

    It really doesn't matter either. Even if he could see them he could not touch them, while they could . You need Spirit Manipulation 5 to interact with the Umbra. So he will only see his enemies, without being able to strike at them, and they will be able to reach across the gauntlet and hitting him. And he would be distracted by the plethora of spirits he would see, and probably provoke.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post


      Level 1 gift

      Sense Wyrm (Level One) — The werewolf can sense nearby manifestations of the Wyrm. This Gift involves a mystical sense, not a visual or olfactory image,
      although Garou often describe the Wyrm’s spiritual emanations as a stench. This Gift doesn’t necessarily sense dedication to the Wyrm, merely contact with its spiritual essence, which can cling to even blameless souls. Sense Wyrm requires active concentration; the spiritual sense it provides doesn’t function passively. The Gift may be taught by any Gaian spirit.

      System: The player rolls Perception + Occult. The difficulty depends on the concentration and strength of the Wyrm’s influence: sensing a single fomor in the next room would be difficulty 6, while detecting the stench of a Bane that was in the room an hour ago would be difficulty 7. Vampires register as Wyrm-tainted, save those with Humanity ratings of 7 or higher.
      Not all Garou have this gift, although it is very common. But I would point out that it doesn't automatically break Obfuscate; it tells you that someone nearby is linked to the wyrm, or that its corruption is close.

      It also requires conscious activation, and won't be used by someone who has been driven completely insane. Possibly by those investigating the sudden outbreak of madness, yes...

      But honestly Werewolves are, RAW, poorly equipped to deal with Obfuscate.
      Last edited by 11twiggins; 09-14-2018, 10:59 AM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post


        It really doesn't matter either. Even if he could see them he could not touch them, while they could . You need Spirit Manipulation 5 to interact with the Umbra.
        Sure, I noted that (just pointing out the flaw in your objection). Like I said, this build seems conceptually backwards. Obviously he could just say 'I get the fifth dot as well'. But choosing this Berzerking style over just getting other Thaumaturgy paths seems inefficient. Still not sure he'd be 'distracted by spirits' though, per my other objection.

        11twiggins I don't have my book on me, doesn't Clash of Wills note something about Lupines and Obfuscate? Maybe it just says something like dogs, I forget.
        Last edited by Monalfie; 09-14-2018, 11:00 AM.

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        • #34
          RAW, Garou have few tools to detect Kindred in Obfuscate. If they realize something is wrong and use a gift to detect a threat they might break it, but RAW they can only do so if the power has dots equal to or greater than the Kindred's dots in Obfuscate... which is unlikely. And even then they need to succeed in a contested roll I believe.

          Then again the rules also say that if dot vs dot doesn't fit with the supernatural you're against (which it arguably won't with all Garou, Fera, Fomori etc. who have non-linear powers), the rules say to use a resisted roll which is simply easier for the Kindred to win if their Obfuscate is higher.
          Last edited by 11twiggins; 09-14-2018, 11:09 AM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

            Not all Garou have this gift, although it is very common. But I would point out that it doesn't automatically break Obfuscate; it tells you that someone nearby is linked to the wyrm, or that its corruption is close.

            It also requires conscious activation, and won't be used by someone who has been driven completely insane. Possibly by those investigating the sudden outbreak of madness, yes...

            But honestly Werewolves are, RAW, poorly equipped to deal with Obfuscate.

            You can't use Dementation without losing Obfuscate.


            •• Unseen Presence
            With experience, the vampire can move around
            without being seen. Shadows seem to shift to cover
            him, and people automatically avert their gazes as he
            passes by. Others move unconsciously to avoid contact
            with the cloaked creature; those with weak wills may
            even scurry away from the area in unacknowledged
            fear. The vampire remains ignored indefinitely unless
            someone deliberately seeks him out or he inadvertently
            reveals himself.

            Since the vampire fully retains his physical substance,
            he must be careful to avoid contact with anything
            that may disclose his presence (knocking over a
            vase, bumping into someone). Even a whispered word
            or the scuffing of a shoe against the floor can be enough
            to disrupt the power.

            System: No roll is necessary to use this power unless
            the character speaks,
            attacks, or otherwise draws attention
            to himself. The Storyteller should call for a Wits +
            Stealth roll under any circumstances that might cause
            the character to reveal himself. The difficulty of the
            roll depends on the situation; stepping on a squeaky
            floorboard might be a 5, while walking through a pool
            of water may require a 9. Other acts may require a certain
            number of successes; speaking quietly without giving
            away one’s position, for instance, demands at least
            three successes.
            Upon success, the vampire, all her
            clothing, and objects that could fit into a pocket are
            concealed.
            Some things are beyond the power of Unseen Presence
            to conceal. Although the character is cloaked
            from view while he smashes through a window, yells
            out, or throws someone across the room, the vampire
            becomes visible to all in the aftermath. Bystanders snap
            out of the subtle fugue in which Obfuscate put them.
            Worse still, each viewer can make a Wits + Awareness
            roll (difficulty 7); if successful, the mental haze clears
            completely, so those individuals recall every move the
            character made up until


            • Passion
            The vampire stirs his victim’s emotions, either
            heightening them to a fevered pitch or blunting them
            until the target is completely desensitized. The Cainite
            may not choose which emotion is affected; she may
            only amplify or dull emotions already present in the
            target. In this way, a vampire can inflame mild irritation
            into quivering rage or atrophy true love into casual
            interest.
            System: The character talks to her victim, and
            the vampire’s player rolls Charisma + Empathy (difficulty
            equals the victim’s Humanity or Path rating).
            The number of successes determines the duration of
            the altered state of feeling. Effects of this power might
            include one- or two-point additions or subtractions
            to difficulties of frenzy rolls, Virtue rolls, rolls to resist


            •• The Haunting
            The vampire manipulates the sensory centers of his
            victim’s brain, flooding the victim’s senses with visions,
            sounds, scents, or feelings that aren’t really there. The
            images, regardless of the sense to which they appeal,
            are only fleeting “glimpses,” barely perceptible to the
            victim. The vampire using Dementation cannot control
            what the victim perceives, but may choose which
            sense is affected.
            The “haunting” effects occur mainly when the victim
            is alone, and mostly at night. They may take the
            form of the subject’s repressed fears, guilty memories,
            or anything else that the Storyteller finds dramatically
            appropriate. The effects are never pleasant or unobtrusive,
            however. The Storyteller should let her imagination
            run wild when describing these sensory impressions;
            the victim may well feel as if she is going mad, or
            as if the world is.
            System: After the vampire speaks to the victim, the
            player spends a blood point and rolls Manipulation +
            Subterfuge (difficulty of his victim’s Perception + Self-
            Control/Instinct). The number of successes determines
            the length of the sensory “visitations.” The precise effects
            are up to the Storyteller, though particularly eerie
            or harrowing apparitions can certainly reduce dice
            pools for a turn or two after the manifestation.

            •••• Voice of Madness
            By merely addressing his victims aloud, the Kindred
            can drive targets into fits of blind rage or fear, forcing
            them to abandon reason and higher thought. Victims
            are plagued by hallucinations of their subconscious demons,
            and try to flee or destroy their hidden shames.
            Tragedy almost always follows in the wake of this power’s
            use, though offending Malkavians often claim that
            they were merely encouraging people to act “according
            to their natures.” Unfortunately for the vampire concerned,
            he runs a very real risk of falling prey to his
            own voice’s power.



            ••••• Total Insanity
            The vampire coaxes the madness from the deepest
            recesses of her target’s mind, focusing it into an overwhelming
            wave of insanity. This power has driven
            countless victims, vampire and mortal alike, to unfortunate
            ends.

            System: The Kindred must gain her target’s undivided
            attention for at least one full turn to enact this
            power.
            The player spends a blood point and rolls Manipulation
            + Intimidation (difficulty of her victim’s
            current Willpower points). If the roll is successful, the
            victim is afflicted with five derangements of the Storyteller’s
            choice (see p. 290). The number of successes
            determines the duration.

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            • #36
              Undead rabbit You can use it without breaking Obfuscate 3. Do Garou use Sense Wyrm on every random person they meet? Repeatedly changing your appearance when confronting a supernatural foe is pretty useful, since a person who scans every random kine they meet is a person who is a nervous wreck and struggling to live their life at all. Furthermore, using Obfuscate 1/2 to reach places you wouldn't be able to otherwise, speaking, and then breaking line of sight to use Obfuscate 1/2 again is also viable.

              At Obfuscate 4 a lot of these problems aren't problems anymore of course, since with good rolls you can disappear from plain sight, but that's expensive in terms of EXP of course!

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              • #37
                Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                Undead rabbit You can use it without breaking Obfuscate 3. Furthermore, using Obfuscate 1/2 to reach places you wouldn't be able to otherwise, speaking, and then breaking line of sight to use Obfuscate 1/2 again is also viable.

                At Obfuscate 4 a lot of these problems aren't problems anymore of course, since with good rolls you can disappear from plain sight, but that's expensive in terms of EXP of course!
                Obfuscate 3 doesn't make you invisible, it just change your face, so you would have to speak with them.
                Even so from Obfuscate 2 you could just use the first two level of dementation, since the fourth requires "adressing the victim aloud" and "gain her target's undivided attention"which would break the invisibility.

                Vanishing with Obfuscate 4 is 4 succes (Target wits + alertness) , good luck with that.
                Last edited by Undead rabbit; 09-14-2018, 11:18 AM.

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                • #38
                  My favorite so far is Thoth's Assamite sniper build.

                  I have an idea I'd like to call the Howling Pinata.

                  It involves a Tremere (or other thaumaturge) with Movement of the Mind at sufficient levels to lift a Garou, Conjuring at sufficient levels to cover it with a flammable substance, and Lure of Flames at sufficient level to light it up. Of course, Movement of the Mind is the linch pin here. The main goal is to remove the target's ability to act by suspending them. (Subjects lifted in such a manner resist with a Willpower opposed roll, not physical stats.)

                  The other two Paths are optional. Some materials, once conjured, will ignite on contact with air, and Flames alone will do some damage. Once the Garou is hanging in mid-air, a handgrenade, a high-powered rifle, or simply a large bonfire would be sufficient.

                  As a bonus, several Tremere with the appropriate paths working in tandem make it a single turn attack.



                  Then, for Setites, there's the Akhu Path Divine Hand 3, which requires a great deal more preparation, but has infinite range, and does up to six levels of damage with each use. As a level 3 power, this build is available to book-standard, new characters.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post

                    Obfuscate 3 doesn't make you invisible, it just change your face. Even so you could just use the first two level of dementation, since the fourth requires "adressing the victim aloud" and "gain her target's undivided attention"

                    Vanishing with Obfuscate 4 is 4 succes, good luck with that.
                    I know that Obfuscate 3 does. It allows you to, for example, disguise yourself as some random human (doesn't just change face) and then approach a Garou and whammy them with any Dementation power you like. Unless they're avoiding giving their attention to all strangers who approach them? Furthermore, speaking aloud to them isn't that difficult, you just speak to them while disguised and scarper if they realize something is wrong with you.

                    And Obfuscate 4 still works even if you don't vanish immediately; becoming half-invisible is a great advantage when trying to hide or flee.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                      My favorite so far is Thoth's Assamite sniper build.

                      I have an idea I'd like to call the Howling Pinata.

                      It involves a Tremere (or other thaumaturge) with Movement of the Mind at sufficient levels to lift a Garou, Conjuring at sufficient levels to cover it with a flammable substance, and Lure of Flames at sufficient level to light it up. Of course, Movement of the Mind is the linch pin here. The main goal is to remove the target's ability to act by suspending them. (Subjects lifted in such a manner resist with a Willpower opposed roll, not physical stats.)
                      .
                      You can't use two path at the same time, in the moment you roll to Conjure or use Lure of Flames you lose control of Movement of the Mind. Only Focused Mind 4 allow to use two path at the same time. The only way to do this is getting 5 or more success on the roll.

                      Five or more successes
                      on the initial roll means the vampire can control the
                      object for duration of the scene.
                      Which means 5+ success at target 7, or 8, since Werewolves in Crinos have a weight that range from 400lbs to 850lbs.

                      Besides, every werewolf with the mere homid (most common breed of werewolves) rank 1 Master of Fire will be immune to fire.

                      System: The player spends one Gnosis point. For
                      the rest of the scene, fire inflicts bashing rather than aggravated
                      damage to the Garou.
                      Last edited by Undead rabbit; 09-14-2018, 11:27 AM.

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                      • #41
                        Pick up with Movement of the Mind so they're helpless (short of having some Gift that allows for ranged damage or a mental power) and then hit repeatedly with some kind of damage? Other than fire I mean, and that doesn't require you to use a second path.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                          I have an idea I'd like to call the Howling Pinata.

                          It involves a Tremere (or other thaumaturge) with Movement of the Mind at sufficient levels to lift a Garou, Conjuring at sufficient levels to cover it with a flammable substance, and Lure of Flames at sufficient level to light it up. Of course, Movement of the Mind is the linch pin here. The main goal is to remove the target's ability to act by suspending them. (Subjects lifted in such a manner resist with a Willpower opposed roll, not physical stats.)

                          The other two Paths are optional. Some materials, once conjured, will ignite on contact with air, and Flames alone will do some damage. Once the Garou is hanging in mid-air, a handgrenade, a high-powered rifle, or simply a large bonfire would be sufficient.

                          As a bonus, several Tremere with the appropriate paths working in tandem make it a single turn attack.
                          I feel like this is overthinking the issue. Mostly because this is going to be extremely blood exhaustive (first the cost to hold them, then to summon anything flammable, then to light them on fire). Whereas you could just have pre-conjured (or actually bought/made) a shotgun with silver buckshot (or whatever you preferred gun is). I like the spirit of the idea (because, again, a caster built around not engaging physically is going to almost always be better here), but just a few tweaks.

                          Undead rabbit
                          Pretty sure he's saying you would cast hold, then cast Lure a later turn. Not take multiple actions at the same time. I haven't heard of this 'you lose control of MotM when using other Paths' thing (maybe I'm entirely missing that). Also, you wouldn't really need to get five successes because the necessity to hold them for the entire scene is a bit lacking. You'd just need to hold them until you managed to kill them. And, as noted, there are much easier ways besides using other paths.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post

                            Most of them.

                            1)Your fetish need an activation roll to work, and creating a 5 point fetish is difficult by the way



                            2) Your fetish armor will not give you a 10 soak bonus, fetish of spirit manipulation enache skills, not soak or similar



                            3)Your build postulate that you have time to prepare yourself, if you have time to prepare youself you must assume werewolves can too.

                            4)Werewolves will just kill you from the Umbra, where you cannot see them or reach them, and some Auspex will not help since they are not invisible, they are on another dimension.

                            5)Werewolves have fetish too, better than the one Spirit Thauma gives you, and they will use them.

                            6) Berserk doesn't let you make complex action, and it doesn't influence your dodges




                            This means

                            A) You cannot spot ambushes or doing anything complex, while they can

                            B) So you would have your normal dicepool to dodge, which means that if you don't dodge the first attack of the wolf you are dead


                            Even more, you can't use Berserk merit and Focused Mind 5 together.




                            And Focused Mind 2 cannot be used on yourself



                            as for close combat It might work against werewolves up to rank 2, at rank 3 it would be smeared.





                            Let's take for example an Ahorun get of fenris rank 3







                            Non combat Garou will just work around those defenses


                            A Theurge for example will just ask your Fetish to shut down and do not work for the subsequent fight.




                            A Red Talon would just destroy your belongings, armor and sword alike



                            Same for the Bone Gnawers
                            1)Yes, activation roll that goes quite easily considering maxed out will. To make it easier to both create and activate, consider the character having the armor of diamond serenity ritual cast at the beginning of each night; rites of blood makes it possible to learn rituals cross-school.

                            2)subject to gamemaster interpretation. "The storyteller always has final autority etc. etc." Given what you are referring to is not called "skills" but "abilities" in the game, And given that for example Black Spirals have a level 3 fetish that gives 3 armor, I think it's perfectly reasonable for a fetish to add to saok. Your mileage may vary but your interpretation of the rules isn't particularily stronger than mine. Not that it matters, since you were quoting a gift that completely bypasses armor...

                            3)absolutely not, Focused Mind powers are non-actions, like going berserker.

                            4)How would the mechanics for this work? I don't remember WW that good, and judging fro this thread
                            http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...he-umbra/page2 there does not seem to be a clear consensus.
                            5+6+other doubts)Berserker lets you parry. Berserk is not frenzy, so it is perfectly compatible with focused mind 5. Powers that do not explicitly list the user as a possible target, cannot be used on self? I think this is at best subject to interpretation. The thaumaturge is within earshot of hisself.


                            About the gifts you posted, some are effectively impressive but I see nothing that would let the garou go through a 16 dice at difficulty 2 parry. Or stop a 17 dice difficulty 2 attack. That Troll skin gift + crinos + armor of gaia + some soaking fetish could potentially do the trick if the gaoru have some ways to lower the difficulty on both activation rolls and soaking rolls...

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                            • #44
                              I thnk its amazing that Odo, the finesse fighter. Disciplined, meditative, skilled, has the best shot. That katana is fierce.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Talvas View Post
                                I thnk its amazing that Odo, the finesse fighter. Disciplined, meditative, skilled, has the best shot. That katana is fierce.
                                Honestly, once you nerf Werewolf Rage they are fucked.

                                I'm surprised more vampires don't try and figure out a way to do that.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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