Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What if EVERY clan had their own unique discipline?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Yossarian View Post
    I think the more likely answer is that the most of the other clans were originally exotic antagonists, and needed something (i.e., magic) to define them.
    Bang on. Originally only the 7 Camarilla Clans were playable and everyone else was NPC-only or Antagonist-only. Vicissitude, Obtenebration, Chimerstry, they were never designed as tools for players and in many cases it still shows rather strongly. Look at how open-ended and rules-lite Chimerstry and Vicissitude are compared to the well-defined and very simple (but badass) tools offered by Auspex or Dominate. It's because originally the idea was the ST would be the one using Chimerstry and Vicissitude and any rules questions that arose from them would be handwaved off because they were NPC powers.

    Originally posted by Yossarian View Post
    I still don't know that it's all that hard to manage, considering how many crazy Disciplines there really are.
    I think that's exactly why it is​ hard to manage. The later Disciplines just get more and more niche, with less general applications. How many every day situations call for Serpentis or Melpominee or Sanguinis? Those are plot devices. They don't lend themselves well to a wide variety of character concepts.

    I'd be far more interested in seeing unique Disciplines removed from the game instead of added to it. Blood magic can stay, as out-of-Clan only. Protean can get shared with the Tzimisce to replace Vicissitude, since it's a very standard vampire power. The others can be dropped and, wait for it, have no negative impact. The Assamites don't need Quietus, the Ravnos don't need Chimerstry and the Setites don't need Serpentis.


    If you want a unique Discipline for each of the Clans, it's not that hard though. Borrow some of the Requiem Disciplines. They don't tend to have that NPC-only poor design and specialization that plagues the uniques from VtM.

    Brujah – Valeren (Warrior)
    Gangrel – Protean
    Nosferatu – Detournement (information gathering, Requiem) replaces Potence
    Malkavian – Dementation
    Toreador – Xinyao (emotional control, Requiem) replaces Celerity
    Tremere – Thaumaturgy
    Ventrue – Constance (supernatural self-control, Requiem) replaces Fortitude

    Lasombra – Obtenebration
    Tzimisce – Koldunic Sorcery or Vicissitude (I hates Vicissitude)

    Assamite – Quietus
    Giovani / Cappadocian – Necromancy
    Followers of Set – Serpentis
    Ravnos – Chimerstry
    Salubri – Obeah


    I'm a professor! Why is no one listening to me?!

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Telgar View Post
      Bang on. Originally only the 7 Camarilla Clans were playable and everyone else was NPC-only or Antagonist-only. Vicissitude, Obtenebration, Chimerstry, they were never designed as tools for players and in many cases it still shows rather strongly. Look at how open-ended and rules-lite Chimerstry and Vicissitude are compared to the well-defined and very simple (but badass) tools offered by Auspex or Dominate. It's because originally the idea was the ST would be the one using Chimerstry and Vicissitude and any rules questions that arose from them would be handwaved off because they were NPC powers.
      Yeah, to a large degree it seemed like the non-Camarilla Clans were all built around their signature Discipline, rather than staring with a concept and going from there. Not to say that these Clans are just one trick ponies, but to the degree that they are three dimensional, the weird Discipline almost seems like a distraction. The Tzimisce can still have their flavor as being sadistic, inhuman, conservative, and territorial without having the power to shape flesh. Assamites can still be assassins without a special Discipline just for it.

      Though one alternative way of dealing with signature Disciplines might just be de-emphasize them. The Lasombra may be the only Clan to specialize in Obtenebration, but anybody can pick it up, it isn't a big super secret that nobody else can access. That reduces the relative disadvantage of Clans that don't have special Discilpines.

      Another option could be to give each Clan only one Clan Discipline, with out of Clan Disciplines being reasonably easy to access. Something like this:

      Assamites - Quietus
      Brujah - Presence
      Followers of Set - Serpentis
      Gangrel - Animalism
      Giovanni - Necromancy
      Lasombra - Obtenebration
      Malkavian - Dementation
      Nosferatu - Obfuscate
      Ravnos - Chimerstry
      Tremere - Thaumaturgy
      Toreador - Auspex
      Tzimisce - Vicissitude
      Ventrue - Dominate

      Perhaps with out of Clan Disciplines costing only x6 the current level instead if x7
      Last edited by Sergeant Brother; 11-18-2013, 12:34 AM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Telgar View Post
        The Assamites don't need Quietus, the Ravnos don't need Chimerstry and the Setites don't need Serpentis.
        This might be drifting too far from the main topic, but I've been thinking along the same lines recently. All of the eight basic disciplines have solid mechanical and thematic foundations, but the more you drift away from the core, the less coherent the disciplines start to become. The revised clanbooks helped to overhaul the independent clans to such a degree that Quietus and Serpentis in particular feel like distractions from the core themes of Assamites and Setites rather than meaningful additions to them. Even the Lasombra would lose little of their shadowy allure if they had Obfuscate instead of Obtenebration, and in many ways the former would be the more useful discipline for them.

        I'm less sure about the Ravnos, though. I could see replacing Chimerstry with either Obfuscate or Presence, but neither really feels right. Illusionism isn't terribly thematic for vampires, but it seems to be pretty central to the Ravnos identity in a way that, for example, Serpentis just isn't for the Setites.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Yossarian View Post
          [...]If you wanted to do something really outside the box, you could alter it so that each clan only has one inherent discipline, with all other powers out-of-clan. You could also choose a discipline that each clan is bad at learning, whether it's a proprietary discipline or a common one. For example, I can imagine Brujah having difficulty learning Dominate, or a Lasombra not being able to "get" Auspex.
          I've always felt that the Clans should have s singular, unique in-Clan Discipline, and that during charcater creation, one could choose two other more "common" Disciplines. In that respect, I like HOD's write-up. I'd love to try something like this, but my power-hungry players all have to be special little snowflakes.

          Cheers!


          If you don't use an Oxford comma, I feel bad for you, son,
          'Cuz I got ninety-nine problems, but clarity ain't one.

          Comment


          • #20
            Ooo I definitely like Protean replacing Vicissitude-fits the Old Clan perfectly and what people think of when the name Dracula pops up. I dont mind Vicissitude but hated the story/theories behind it. Now I have to order the Requiem pdf...also like the idea of 1 in-clan discipline and the rest being up for grabs during creation as out-of-clan. I might try this out with the group once we flesh it out-after I read Requiem and see how compatible it would be to mix disciplines from game to game.

            Comment


            • #21
              I've always honestly been a big fan of giving Nosferatu the option to pick up Nightmare from Requiem, it certainly fits what they are capable of and gives the game another social discipline (always a good thing). While Iove Vicissitude to bits I totally understand the hate for it, its relatively unthematic and is an absolute bitch to rule / control in games / keep players from going off the deep end or into entirely silly/retarded territory. Tzimisce are in general better of without it, I honestly get irritated that all their writeups, fluff and even the novels written about them completely focus on the discipline above all their others (Seriously, Auspex and Animalism are absolutely brilliant disciplines, I'd take those over Vis any day) ... though Dark Ages Tzimisce also focused mostly on Vykos and reminding us every other page of the fact that the was... wait for it... gay. Apparently we needed reminding of that one?

              I would like see Tzimisce with something closer to coils of the dragon from Requiem, something that focuses upon spiritual and supernatural self-improvement/transcendence as one of my issues with Vicissitude has always been the fact that for that is built around its metamorphosists all of them are focused overly upon their physical natures or essentially changing shapes for their personal amusement or being petty monsters rather than actually focusing on spiritual and mental enlightenment. Even the brooding viovodes within their castles are in their write ups overly obsessed with boring body horror and hordes of Szlachta, which is fun sometimes, but it misses the point that we should be interested in the personality of the lord of the manor and his political goals rather than what crazy shape he walks around in day to day. One of the few things DA: Tzimisce clan novel did right was most of the tzimisce that appeared within the book had mostly or entirely human apperances.

              Comment


              • #22
                I think that it would be fitting to give Toreadors Melpominee in lieu of Auspex, unless we can integrate Requiem disciplines, in which case Majesty is the go-to discipline. I personally feel that while the clans that don't have a unique discipline ought to have much more innate power and perks to their signature discipline, perhaps even additional unique powers that fit the theme of the clan.


                “And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Telgar View Post
                  I think that's exactly why it is​ hard to manage. The later Disciplines just get more and more niche, with less general applications. How many every day situations call for Serpentis or Melpominee or Sanguinis? Those are plot devices. They don't lend themselves well to a wide variety of character concepts.
                  I guess I mean easy to manage in the sense that it's not that hard to do a little redistribution of the existing material. But you're absolutely right, most of the unique disciplines are niche as hell. It's one of the design choice contrasts I really like in VTR. You have a pool of 10(?) very elemental disciplines, which everyone has access to, and each clan is really good at a particular one; you choose to get weird if you join a bloodline or a covenant.

                  Edit: I always thought that the overriding design philosophy for disciplines should be that they make you a better predator, which I think most of the original seven Clans, and the Requiem clans, exemplify.

                  That said, I do love weird niche powers, too, so there's always room for that, at least for me.
                  Last edited by Yossarian; 11-18-2013, 05:10 PM.



                  Social justice vampire/freelancer | He/Him

                  VtR: Curses of Caine in Requiem 2ndTricks of the DamnedBtP: Secrets of VancouverCofD: The CabinActual Play: Vampire: The Requiem – Bloodlines
                  Podcast: The Breakup

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I tend to run Camarilla games since I’m big on 1st and early 2nd edition. One of the reasons I like it is that it’s fairly easy to tie every non-physical Discipline (Celerity, Fortitude, Potence) to a clan by looking at their weaknesses:

                    Brujah – Presence
                    The increase in resisting to frenzy is generally viewed as the clan being angry, but that’s really not the case. The clan essentially has difficulty controlling their emotions and experiences them very strongly. This naturally extends to Presence and the idea that their lack of emotional control essentially bleeds out of them and greatly affects those around them.

                    Gangrel – Protean
                    And obvious choice, since they’re the only one that gets it and their accrual of animal features highlights the fact that their physical forms are really malleable.

                    Malkavian – Obfuscate
                    Before the Ravnos, the Malkavians were the original clan of tricksters and deceivers who had Auspex, Dominate and Obfuscate. Obfuscate is an obvious choice, since it’s not a Discipline about hiding and being sneaky but one that manipulates and distorts the minds of others to perceive or omit different things. Which is perfectly in line with a clan so focused on their mental states. Plus the idea of a psychopath moving about unseen or hidden in plain sight due to them distorting your mind is terrifying.

                    Nosferatu – Animalism
                    Animalism is a Discipline of the manipulation of the Beast, which is the perfect complement for a clan that is the Beast made physical for all to see.

                    Toreador – Auspex
                    The Toreador weakness is really derived from the fact that the clan has such acute senses that at times they become overwhelmed by them, hence Auspex.

                    Tremere – Thaumaturgy
                    Self-explanitory

                    Ventrue – Dominate
                    Also fairly self-explainatory, as the Ventrue have very domineering personalities and are used to getting what they want, which extends to feeding habits – They want what they want and they’ll get it at a detriment to anything else.

                    That said, my games usually have each of the clan specialty Disciplines above avaliable to them to increase at the standard clan x5. Characters are able to acquire any of the other Disciplines (save Thaumaturgy) depending on the character personality (domineering characters can purchase Dominate, slick characters have an easier time developing Presence, etc.) and increase all “non-clan specialty” Disciplines at x6.

                    This has the added benefit of making Caitiff actually make sense. They can acquire other Disciplines (save Thaumaturgy) and pay to increase them at x6 as before. However, since they’re clanless they don’t receive the x5 bonus for “clan specialty” Disciplines and don’t suffer from the clan weaknesses associated with each Discipline specialty.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      That's true, each Clan has a connection to those disciplines, but the Nosferatu are just as tied to Obfuscate as the Malkavians and the Ventrue are just as tied to Presence as the Brujah. The Malkavians have as much connection to Auspex as the Toreador... since none of those powers are unique to that Clan (cept Protean and Thaumaturgy), it's hard to say one has a stronger connection than another.


                      I'm a professor! Why is no one listening to me?!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Nosferatu: give them a hive mind discipline. They're a cooperative clan, and hive mind abilities are usually reserved for freaky looking critters. At low levels, the discipline lets them talk in nonsense and gibberish and choose who can instinctively understand them. At mid-levels it looks more like traditional telepathy. At high level it allows for perfect coordination.

                        Toreador: replace auspex with precognition. Since it's a pain for the GM to feed the player clues, and a pain for the player to interpret cryptic clues, the discipline should instead result in the appearance of being crazy prepared (or course I have an umbrella, I knew it would rain) or the option of redoing certain actions (okay, me shooting that guy who's immune to bullets? That was my precognitive vision that shooting him was useless. Instead I'm going to through Jimmy in the way and run for it.)

                        Brujah: a knack for destruction. Things just fall apart when the Brujah wants them too; usually inanimate objects. Need a gate smashed of a door kicked in? A car broken? A safe cracked? Call a Brujah. At low levels, this just amplifies the ability to break things. At high levels, it's more telekinetic. A gentle touch can cause something to shake itself apart. At high levels, a glare can cause objects to fly to pieces. The Brujah also have a lot of multi-discipline powers combining this with Presence, to cause discord and mayhem on a social level.

                        Ventrue: give them a teleportation power, let it replace Presence. At low levels they can summon or dispel items, and at high levels they can zorp around the room. At very high levels they can move large objects, or lots of people. Maybe they can teleport parts of people as an attack. Teleportation might not fit an existing Ventrue theme, but it's a general enough power to fit any clan's flavor.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Telgar View Post
                          Just give the Brujah Warrior Valeren. The Salubri are lame anyway.
                          The Salubri awesome! Pistols at down, sirrah.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I say, how exciting.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I had the idea to make the True Brujah just another part of the Brujah clan, like the Country/City Gangrel split (which I incidentally expanded into the Camarilla). I thought it would be cool to make Celerity the non-True Brujah clan specific discipline. That lead me to re-doing the discipline spread of all the Clans so they all had a specific discipline. I gave the Ventrue Dominate, the Toreador Presence, the Nosferatu Nightmare from Requiem. Seemed like an ok idea to me...

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                To me this thread gives me the chills. I'm advocating of making less unique Disciplines rathe than more.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X