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  • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
    That sort of thing was nearly ubiquitous in the original WoD material. Native Americans and East Asians got a lot of that treatment too, actually, probably any group which wasn’t pure WASP.
    And people wonder that the company that wants to revive the feel of 90s WoD has not been terribly popular with the left-leaning side of the fandom.


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    • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
      And people wonder that the company that wants to revive the feel of 90s WoD has not been terribly popular with the left-leaning side of the fandom.
      Sorry, but I think that's a misinterpretation of it.

      WW wrote not intentionally bad, or hurtfull stuff, but stereotipical stuff, looking at things through the lens Western pop-culture. Because it was written by Western individuals, who weren't experts of those topics, for a Western audience (which is still the overwhelming majority of the audience). It got better over time and everybody was happy about it. They've even said they only want to do things if they can find people who are experts of the field. You can decide if you're willing to believe in that.

      But regardless, that's not what "feel of the 90's WoD" means. At least not for me. Though I don't even think WW revived it in V5.


      If nothing worked, then let's think!

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      • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        Sorry but this is bullshit. More Heavy Arms dialogue
        I think the problem most people have, at least from what I've heard and seen from people who've told me so, is that you have some things you need to work out in regards to HOW YOU TALK TO PEOPLE.

        This is why so many of your posts end up in arguments. It's not because you're right/wrong. Nor is it because you're intelligent(which YOU ARE). It's because you can, at times, come across as an asshole. You tend to move towards insults long before anyone else, and you belittle people's opinions just for the audacity of disagreeing with you.

        You can either change(or not). But I guarantee you don't converse with people in real life the way you do on these forums. Which hey, that's fine. But if you ever wondered why you seem to have so many of these issues on the OP forums, well, this could be why.

        Give your opinion, respectfully. And I doubt there'd be issues. Or, you know...don't.


        PENTEX SUCKS.

        I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

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        • Delete double post
          Last edited by Fat Larry; 10-23-2018, 07:55 PM.


          PENTEX SUCKS.

          I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
            That sort of thing was nearly ubiquitous in the original WoD material. Native Americans and East Asians got a lot of that treatment too, actually, probably any group which wasn’t pure WASP.
            That is utter rubbish.

            Being a blonde pasty Scandinavian and a Heathen at that, I have seen numerous lashes at my background back in the 90s - take the Get of Fenris, for instance.

            Fortunately, we didn't have that ridiculous lust for being a poor victim in the conversation back then and we weren't sitting idle about waiting for someone to say something offensive (which apparently is the general mode these days), so we could take the debate and the literature for what it was.

            When we can't provoke each other any more - even with this sort of silly fiction - we stop thinking and learning. If you want to lean left or right, join a political party. If you want to feel insecure about your sexuality and gender, then expect others to get confused and possibly offend you. If you want a safe space where no one can ever offend you again, then dig a hole in the ground and disappear from the world.

            V


            "They do say, Mrs. M, that verbal insults hurt more than physical pain. They are of course wrong, as you will soon discover when I stick this toasting fork into your head."

            --E. Blackadder

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            • Originally posted by Vincent View Post
              That is utter rubbish.

              Being a blonde pasty Scandinavian and a Heathen at that, I have seen numerous lashes at my background back in the 90s - take the Get of Fenris, for instance.
              Didn't Sergeant Brother acknowledge this? They said 'probably any group that wasn't pure WASP'. A Scandinavian heathen isn't a WASP, so I don't know what aspect you are claiming is rubbish.

              Fortunately, we didn't have that ridiculous lust for being a poor victim in the conversation back then and we weren't sitting idle about waiting for someone to say something offensive (which apparently is the general mode these days), so we could take the debate and the literature for what it was.
              Very questionable implication behind the first part about a lust for being a victim.
              As for waiting for people to take offense, it is only a view I can only take as media exaggeration that paints exceptionally silly situations as the norm. And is a shame in how it delegitimizes certain issues.

              When we can't provoke each other any more - even with this sort of silly fiction - we stop thinking and learning.
              Really depends on what 'provoke each other' means here or how it is done. Though, what you quoted was about how certain prior depictions were racist. If you're saying people cannot think or learn without provocative racism, I'd have to seriously question that line of thotough

              If you want to lean left or right, join a political party. If you want to feel insecure about your sexuality and gender, then expect others to get confused and possibly offend you. If you want a safe space where no one can ever offend you again, then dig a hole in the ground and disappear from the world.

              V
              Again, very questionable implications. Though, not quite coherent enough to strongly get at beyond it just looks like a bunch of buzzwords.
              Again, if 'avoiding racist depictions' = 'a safe space where no one can ever offend you again', seems like a strange conflation.

              Comment


              • So WASP litterally only meant 'White Anglo Saxon Protestants'? Considering the general notion of moral and social superiority to that of the 90s that is being displayed in this thread, I find that very hard to believe.

                Now, we could go through all the posts and copy/paste 'till Kingdom come hence, but I fear we would be wasting everyone's time.

                I stand by my previous post, and as questionable you may find that, as equally questionable do I find the notion that earlier WW products - or we fossils from the 90s for that matter - were crass or racist.

                V
                Last edited by Vincent; 10-24-2018, 09:21 AM.


                "They do say, Mrs. M, that verbal insults hurt more than physical pain. They are of course wrong, as you will soon discover when I stick this toasting fork into your head."

                --E. Blackadder

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Vincent
                  That is utter rubbish.

                  Being a blonde pasty Scandinavian and a Heathen at that, I have seen numerous lashes at my background back in the 90s - take the Get of Fenris, for instance.
                  Stereotypes are alluring and I think they can be fun used right, with a level of sensibility.

                  Not a lot of people were offended by the Pure Tribes, in spite of them being depicted as spiritual indians and noble savages more often than not. There were people offended but nothing on the level of WoD: Gypsies

                  Giovanny have a very "Godfather" vive, but there's a difference between being inspired in the pop culture image of the mafia to create an italian family of vampires with that aesthetics...and stating that in WoD nobody messes with italians because they have contacts within the mafia and supernatural mafioso blood running trough their veins that makes them well suited for organized crime. Gypsies did the latter.

                  Nobody wants a WoD: Mexico where mariachis have Siesta related powers and hats that do aggravated damage, but a WoD: Mexico can be fun if done right, with the Sabbat being there and using the aesthetics of the day of the dead and mexican culture to give flavour. The same could have been achieved with that book, but it wasn't.
                  Last edited by Aleph; 10-24-2018, 09:23 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                    Stereotypes are alluring and I think they can be fun used right, with a level of sensibility.

                    Not a lot of people were offended by the Pure Tribes, in spite of them being depicted as spiritual indians and noble savages more often than not. There were people offended but nothing on the level of WoD: Gypsies

                    Giovanny have a very "Godfather" vive, but there's a difference between being inspired in the pop culture image of the mafia to create an italian family of vampires with that aesthetics...and stating that in WoD nobody messes with italians because they have contacts within the mafia and supernatural mafioso blood running trough their veins that makes them well suited for organized crime. Gypsies did the latter.

                    Nobody wants a WoD: Mexico where mariachis have Siesta related powers and hats that do aggravated damage, but a WoD: Mexico can be fun if done right, with the Sabbat being there and using the aesthetics of the day of the dead and mexican culture to give flavour. The same could have been achieved with that book, but it wasn't.
                    I can only agree that it should be done sensibly. Of course. What I reacted to in this thread was the adamant wish from a significant number of forumites to depict earlier versions as racist ... and what I find to be yet another fad like the one I experienced growing up in the 70s, where white men was the reason behind all evil, to reemerge in what I consider a fun and abstract pass time about blood sucking fiends.

                    I'm not going into the whole labeling (PC, SJW, etc.) as I'm too old and bored to find it relevant - I'm merely trying to point out that if you create a game surrounding a somewhat historical theme where local situations and customs are at the core, chances are you're gonna offend someone in your descriptions. There's always gonna be the local player who doesn't recognize his or her environment and thus find it offensive.

                    That is not the same as condoning racism.

                    V


                    "They do say, Mrs. M, that verbal insults hurt more than physical pain. They are of course wrong, as you will soon discover when I stick this toasting fork into your head."

                    --E. Blackadder

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Vincent View Post
                      So WASP litterally only meant 'White Anglo Saxon Protestants'? Considering the general notion of moral and social superiority to that of the 90s that is being displayed in this thread, I find that very hard to believe.
                      WASP literally stands for White Anglo Saxon Protestant. So I don't see what is hard to grasp here. Obviously only Sergeant Brother can say what they truly meant. But that's what was said, not 'white people' or some such.

                      Now, we could go through all the posts and copy/paste 'till Kingdom come hence, but I fear we would be wasting everyone's time.

                      I stand by my previous post, and as questionable you may find that, as equally questionable do I find the notion that earlier WW products - or we fossils from the 90s for that matter - were crass or racist.

                      V
                      Well, you described the Get of Fenris as a one of 'numerous lashes' against your background. But alright.

                      I'm merely trying to point out that if you create a game surrounding a somewhat historical theme where local situations and customs are at the core, chances are you're gonna offend someone in your descriptions. There's always gonna be the local player who doesn't recognize his or her environment and thus find it offensive.
                      And I would again cite this as the same sort of false equivalency. I don't think anyone in this thread (and rarely in general) is earnestly advocating a situation where no possible offense can be derived from WoD. It is one thing to consider that political correctness has gone to far (though, it should be clear I don't). But to strawman it in this manner always irks me.

                      Comment


                      • This is all also ignoring that Sergeant Brother and I were talking about the WoD's regular problems with "positive racism" in the sense of making minority (or at least foreign) ethnic groups/belief systems inherently superior than the majority (or European/American and Christian) groups. The movie Get Out is all about this style of racism where a group of people are so caught up in bigoted if positive stereotypes around black people, they're willing to do some incredibly horrible things to them to take what they see as positives for themselves.

                        Things like the Akashayana having Do because... Asian monk kung-fu is inherently better than other fighting styles, and Buddhist werewolves learn a special werewolf fighting style of their own in Kailindo. Or giving Romani people magical blood based powers.

                        This is far beyond being artistically thought provoking and diving head first into fetishizing and othering minority cultures, and then getting the power fantasy of playing out those stereotypes. The Get of Fenris are insulting illogical (they're blatantly "Viking werewolves would be awesome! Make it work!" no matter how little they make sense on a cultural level) but even from the beginning they're presented as multifacted on the "Proud Warrior" tropes, acknowledging that their attitudes do produce strong warriors, and can be positively meritocractic in certain ways, but they can also easily fall towards superiority complexes.

                        There's also a very big difference between pushing artistic boundaries and sometimes offending people, and repeatedly doing the same offensive thing over an over.

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                        • Originally posted by Vincent View Post

                          That is utter rubbish.

                          Being a blonde pasty Scandinavian and a Heathen at that, I have seen numerous lashes at my background back in the 90s - take the Get of Fenris, for instance.
                          Heh, being Eastern-European, the Tzimisce and other stuff tied to this region never offended me. In fact, that the game had such ties to my homeland and to the real world in general was always a big draw of WoD for me. Even if they get a lot of things wrong.


                          Originally posted by Vincent View Post

                          I can only agree that it should be done sensibly. Of course. What I reacted to in this thread was the adamant wish from a significant number of forumites to depict earlier versions as racist ... and what I find to be yet another fad like the one I experienced growing up in the 70s, where white men was the reason behind all evil, to reemerge in what I consider a fun and abstract pass time about blood sucking fiends.

                          I'm not going into the whole labeling (PC, SJW, etc.) as I'm too old and bored to find it relevant - I'm merely trying to point out that if you create a game surrounding a somewhat historical theme where local situations and customs are at the core, chances are you're gonna offend someone in your descriptions. There's always gonna be the local player who doesn't recognize his or her environment and thus find it offensive.

                          That is not the same as condoning racism.

                          V
                          Ok, I'll make a very controversial (at least I'm resigned to get a lot of flak for it) statement: the '80s, '90s and, to some extent, the early 2000's were a lot more interesting, with a lot more transgressive stuff, exploration of ideas (and the debates around them) and general talking about stuff, than what the situation became nowadays. Oh, yes, there were missteps in that, like WW did sometimes, but I frequently feel it was still better.

                          That the WW folks stated they want to bring that back, was something I fully supported and am still supporting. That I don't agree with the style they're doing it, or the political overtones they're incorporating is another matter, I still support the principle.


                          If nothing worked, then let's think!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                            Stereotypes are alluring and I think they can be fun used right, with a level of sensibility.

                            Not a lot of people were offended by the Pure Tribes, in spite of them being depicted as spiritual indians and noble savages more often than not. There were people offended but nothing on the level of WoD: Gypsies

                            Giovanny have a very "Godfather" vive, but there's a difference between being inspired in the pop culture image of the mafia to create an italian family of vampires with that aesthetics...and stating that in WoD nobody messes with italians because they have contacts within the mafia and supernatural mafioso blood running trough their veins that makes them well suited for organized crime. Gypsies did the latter.

                            Nobody wants a WoD: Mexico where mariachis have Siesta related powers and hats that do aggravated damage, but a WoD: Mexico can be fun if done right, with the Sabbat being there and using the aesthetics of the day of the dead and mexican culture to give flavour. The same could have been achieved with that book, but it wasn't.
                            Well, as I've said above, in my eyes the problem isn't that a book called WoD: Gypsies exists, but the portrayal. Give the topic ample research/consulting with experts and base it on actual folklore and it'd be an awesome book I'd buy instantly.


                            If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                            • If NuWW was stupid to make that and still call it "Gypsies." They will deserve every lambasting over it they'll receive. Also I am somewhat annoyed that it seems it has to be pointed out that "Well meaning but ultimately still awful." writing from the original WoD era is part of the "Shit we don't want to see back." list. As someone seems to think it isn't.


                              “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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                              • Originally posted by Vincent View Post

                                That is utter rubbish.

                                Being a blonde pasty Scandinavian and a Heathen at that, I have seen numerous lashes at my background back in the 90s - take the Get of Fenris, for instance.

                                Fortunately, we didn't have that ridiculous lust for being a poor victim in the conversation back then and we weren't sitting idle about waiting for someone to say something offensive (which apparently is the general mode these days), so we could take the debate and the literature for what it was.

                                When we can't provoke each other any more - even with this sort of silly fiction - we stop thinking and learning. If you want to lean left or right, join a political party. If you want to feel insecure about your sexuality and gender, then expect others to get confused and possibly offend you. If you want a safe space where no one can ever offend you again, then dig a hole in the ground and disappear from the world.

                                V
                                As has been said, I really did mean WASP as White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, or at least that was the general idea. WW stereotyped some other groups of white people. In the Sorcerers book, they said that Asatru were all ultra violent Neo-Nazi gang members. That was petty bad stereotyping of a religion. Sometimes Celtic people got the mystical and wise treatment. Though also, as Heavy Arms said, I wasn't just talking about stereotypes, I was talking about "exotic" groups being portrayed in a way which is supposedly positive - mystical, wise, spiritual non-white people. Native Americans and east Asians got that a lot and the Gypsy book was probably the most extreme example. White groups (like the Asatru I previously mentioned) may have gotten it worse, they could be portrayed in more unambiguously negative ways than non-white groups. In fact, saying that everybody who isn't a WASP is mystical and wise isn't exactly positive for WASP's either. As I said a bit back, this sort of stereotyping was largely motivated by left leaning sensibilities.

                                I'm not saying that this is something that we need to be outraged about or protest over, but it is one of the common foibles of the WoD setting and something that seemed to pop up again and again in numerous books across multiple game lines.

                                Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                                Heh, being Eastern-European, the Tzimisce and other stuff tied to this region never offended me. In fact, that the game had such ties to my homeland and to the real world in general was always a big draw of WoD for me. Even if they get a lot of things wrong.

                                Ok, I'll make a very controversial (at least I'm resigned to get a lot of flak for it) statement: the '80s, '90s and, to some extent, the early 2000's were a lot more interesting, with a lot more transgressive stuff, exploration of ideas (and the debates around them) and general talking about stuff, than what the situation became nowadays. Oh, yes, there were missteps in that, like WW did sometimes, but I frequently feel it was still better.

                                That the WW folks stated they want to bring that back, was something I fully supported and am still supporting. That I don't agree with the style they're doing it, or the political overtones they're incorporating is another matter, I still support the principle.
                                I largely agree with this. If we go back to the 1990's, we can see all kinds of ridiculous stuff (far beyond merely potentially offensive ethnic portrayals) in the WW material. We also got a lot of stuff that made people excited. As you say, it was more transgressive. Maybe now we lose something in always trying to be sensitive, or at least trying to be sensitive to certain sensibilities. Maybe we the players have all changed a bit too. If I had never seen WoD before and you showed the current me those early books that got me interested in WoD, I might have had more objections to them on either ideological or aesthetic grounds.
                                Last edited by Sergeant Brother; 10-24-2018, 04:43 PM.

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