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  • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
    I largely agree with this. If we go back to the 1990's, we can see all kinds of ridiculous stuff (far beyond merely potentially offensive ethnic portrayals) in the WW material. We also got a lot of stuff that made people excited. As you say, it was more transgressive. Maybe now we lose something in always trying to be sensitive, or at least trying to be sensitive to certain sensitivities. Maybe we the players have all changed a bit too. If I had never seen WoD before and you showed the current me those early books that got me interested in WoD, I might have had more objections to them on either ideological or aesthetic grounds.
    Emphasis added. Certainly, I believe that's the case and that the surrounding culture also changed and not in a positive way, in my oppinion, regarding this matter. Sure, we've became, overall, more sensitive, as you say, but at the same time, we're also living in a new, modern age of pretentious quasi-puritanism, to an extent, if you forgive me being blunt. I believe the pendulum will swing back (or, at least I hope it will), because it isn't good either for the social discussion, or entertainment media. The first became histerical, the second is just mostly boring as hell on a rainy day.

    No wonder said entertainment media constantly reaching back to things from those past eras while truly impactful new creations are very few and far between. There are just too many taboos and strictly enforced ones at that and mostly eveyone wants to play safe.


    If nothing worked, then let's think!

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    • Originally posted by PMárk View Post

      Emphasis added. Certainly, I believe that's the case and that the surrounding culture also changed and not in a positive way, in my oppinion, regarding this matter. Sure, we've became, overall, more sensitive, as you say, but at the same time, we're also living in a new, modern age of pretentious quasi-puritanism, to an extent, if you forgive me being blunt. I believe the pendulum will swing back (or, at least I hope it will), because it isn't good either for the social discussion, or entertainment media. The first became histerical, the second is just mostly boring as hell on a rainy day.

      No wonder said entertainment media constantly reaching back to things from those past eras while truly impactful new creations are very few and far between. There are just too many taboos and strictly enforced ones at that and mostly eveyone wants to play safe.
      I agree with all that you've said here. That doesn't mean that criticizing some elements of the WoD is wrong or that some of those complaints aren't valid, but I think that it is important to not get carried away with our reactions. It's also good for creative people to have the courage to occasionally write things that will make people mad.

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      • Originally posted by Kalendeer View Post
        EDIT : Now that I think about it, it's pointless to have this conversation with HeavyArms, so let's not waste the mods' time.
        If you really don't want to waste our time the ignore user feature for this forum is accessable as follows.
        Top icon > my profile > Edit settings > Account
        Ignore list is at the bottom.

        That's also kind of a general response to this thread because it seems there's a lot of hostility between users and it's preventing discourse.



        The Freedom Stone is back

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        • Originally posted by Beckett View Post
          We have had this exact "debate" before. Im not sure if it was Heavy Arms or not, but I do know the Mods had been involved, and explicitly tried to use their status to push their politics.
          That is a false claim, and it also counts as a personal attack which are both rules infractions. Since you haven't learned from your past suspensions you are now banned from these forums. I also suggest people stick to discussing the topic instead of other users if you want this thread to remain open.
          Last edited by Darksider; 10-25-2018, 12:56 AM.


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          • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post

            As has been said, I really did mean WASP as White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, or at least that was the general idea. WW stereotyped some other groups of white people. In the Sorcerers book, they said that Asatru were all ultra violent Neo-Nazi gang members. That was petty bad stereotyping of a religion. Sometimes Celtic people got the mystical and wise treatment. Though also, as Heavy Arms said, I wasn't just talking about stereotypes, I was talking about "exotic" groups being portrayed in a way which is supposedly positive - mystical, wise, spiritual non-white people. Native Americans and east Asians got that a lot and the Gypsy book was probably the most extreme example. White groups (like the Asatru I previously mentioned) may have gotten it worse, they could be portrayed in more unambiguously negative ways than non-white groups. In fact, saying that everybody who isn't a WASP is mystical and wise isn't exactly positive for WASP's either. As I said a bit back, this sort of stereotyping was largely motivated by left leaning sensibilities.
            Hmmm ... are wealthy well connected white Americans of predominantly South English ancestry really the focus group for this sort of literature? And do you honestly think they care whether we taunt them or not? I hear what you say, but understand why I presumed you used the term WASP generically for white people.

            But it's alright and I was in no way offended - I just wanted to point out that also pasty people got lashed by some of the WW literature, but I can see we are in agreement (mostly) ... however, as I try to point out, I don't find it racist - merely a bit limited.

            V
            Last edited by Vincent; 10-25-2018, 04:15 AM.


            "They do say, Mrs. M, that verbal insults hurt more than physical pain. They are of course wrong, as you will soon discover when I stick this toasting fork into your head."

            --E. Blackadder

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            • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
              Sometimes the buzzwords the right uses to demean the left are very strange for me. Apparently, warring for social justice and showing signs of virtue are bad things. What’s the alternative? Social injustice warrior? Vice signaling? Like, what bizzaro world do the people who use justice and virtue as insults live in?
              As virtues and justice in no way are universal or permanent (as anyone who's read an ounce of philosophy knows), they tend to become arbitrary in their quality in a conversation, which does not take its starting point in either the political nor the general media scene. This is, after all, a rather obscure game which not many people - apart from us - know about, and as we here represent many different nationalities and age groups, social justice and virtues can easily become obscure. Furthermore, when a certain agenda becomes predominant - IF that would be the case - the perspective of the game (or whatever you meet about) changes away from its original cause, and instead becomes a matter of the idiosyncrasies of the persons in power rather than the game itself.

              And that, my friend, is the beginning of the end of any product or mutual interest.

              Being against a fixed mindset is not the same as warring everything said mindset believes - it's simply a matter of not liking a fixed mindset.

              V
              Last edited by Vincent; 10-25-2018, 04:00 AM.


              "They do say, Mrs. M, that verbal insults hurt more than physical pain. They are of course wrong, as you will soon discover when I stick this toasting fork into your head."

              --E. Blackadder

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              • Originally posted by Frontline989 View Post
                So I've been noticing a trend in the reaction to a lot of the coverage of the new V5 reboot of the WoD and it is something that has been weighing on my mind. Back in the 1990's I was in my teenage years and became aware of a RPG called Vampire the Masquerade. I was captured by the dark themes of the book and how it explored morality and religion. Reading the various books and supplements themes such as murder, insanity, domination and seduction were core concepts about what being a vampire is all about. At the time no one batted an eye and like myself seemed to be a major draw as people explored the metaplot and told stories in the WoD. The very concept of the WoD was up front about its core themes. This is a world where very bad things happen and its about how you deal with those things.

                Fast forward to 2018 and you have V5. Regardless of how the book has been received by the community the thing that I find most disturbing is how much back bending White Wolf has had to do to make sure they don't offend anyone's sensibilities. I consider myself fairly apolitical in most respects so things that have set people off like the neo Nazi controversy, the ways mental illness has had to be tip toed around, and various other ways the book pushes the moral decency of the setting and I began to think that perhaps in this age of hyper politicization and political correctness will the setting of the WoD continue to draw such heated criticism?

                I think WW response to this has been for the most part adequate and measured but the fact they are even having to address these issues worries me. Are we all so entrenched in our views of political leanings or social sensitivities that we cannot as a people handle a game that explores these topics? There have been much worse things than neo Nazi's discussed in previous editions of the games but they never brought the community to a standstill having to debate weather that was something the company has to apologize for.
                Short answer is yes.
                All that worry and effort? It's a moral panic, it comes and goes with time. One that is starting to wear down here and there, just like the 90s' satanic panic with rpgs.

                And even if it wasn't, it's your game, your players. If much of the community is the haranguing type because of what you open for discussion, well... that's lamentable, but not on you.
                The company's decision to cater to that may or not be deliberate, and may or not be a mistake. I guess it is a bad idea, based on how industries catering to this panic in general are playing a losing match, but it's just my guess.
                Last edited by Synapse; 10-25-2018, 08:02 AM.

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                • Originally posted by Synapse View Post

                  Short answer is yes.
                  All that worry and effort? It's a moral panic, it comes and goes with time. One that is starting to wear down here and there, just like the 90s' satanic panic with rpgs.

                  And even if it wasn't, it's your game, your players. If much of the community is the haranguing type because of what you open for discussion, well... that's lamentable, but not on you.
                  The company's decision to cater to that may or not be deliberate, and may or not be a mistake. I guess it is a bad idea, based on how industries catering to this panic in general are playing a losing match, but it's just my guess.
                  That's mostly how I see it.

                  I just hope it doesn't influence the way they create new content for the WoD moving forward. I find it amusing how words like gypsy trigger people but throw in a dungeon humans are kept as foodstuffs or literal slavery when it comes to ghouls and no one bats an eye.

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                  • A couple of anime that recently released this season kind of encapsulate the problems being discussed. "That time I reincarnated as a slime" and "Goblin Slayer".

                    Both are set in generic middle ages magical fantasy settings with MMO/RPG elements being used. Yet their take on that material is so different that you could get mental and emotional whiplash watching the two back to back.

                    oWoD was essentially "Goblin Slayer" in tone and harshness. Even if you wanted to steer your game away from the worst elements of the setting it was still pretty dark regardless. V5 feels a lot like it is trying to be "That time I reincarnated as a slime" while pointing at the tropes still being the same setting as "Goblin Slayer" as proof to the established fans that it is the same game. But obviously the tone and nature of the material couldn't be more different.

                    Don't get me wrong though, both are enjoyable shows. But for completely different reasons, despite being very similar settings.

                    oWoD was a game where you were supposed to explore horror, despair, and darkness. Discussions about those subject matters were not only expected, but encouraged. With the release of V5, it feels like the attempt to pander to the alarmist elements of society have essentially villainized those topics to the point you can't have discussions about them, let alone have them in your game.

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                    • Originally posted by Frontline989 View Post
                      I just hope it doesn't influence the way they create new content for the WoD moving forward. I find it amusing how words like gypsy trigger people but throw in a dungeon humans are kept as foodstuffs or literal slavery when it comes to ghouls and no one bats an eye.
                      Worst come to worst there's always the old saying "virtue only comes after dinner". There's a big economic crisis incoming. People will put these issues aside faster for that.

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                      • Originally posted by Frontline989 View Post
                        That's mostly how I see it.

                        I just hope it doesn't influence the way they create new content for the WoD moving forward. I find it amusing how words like gypsy trigger people but throw in a dungeon humans are kept as foodstuffs or literal slavery when it comes to ghouls and no one bats an eye.
                        Is it possible you're misunderstanding what this is all about? Because the problem is not about cruelty and darkness existing in the World of Darkness. It really isn't. On the contrary, by discussing techniques like Lines and Veils, individual groups can tackle far darker topics than was safely possible in the 90s.
                        The problem arises when really existing peoples that suffer from persecution are used as props in ways that mischaracterize them and heap just a little bit more on their individual piles of prejudice.

                        Also, a few words regarding the word "trigger".

                        Originally posted by Thoth View Post
                        A couple of anime that recently released this season kind of encapsulate the problems being discussed. "That time I reincarnated as a slime" and "Goblin Slayer".

                        Both are set in generic middle ages magical fantasy settings with MMO/RPG elements being used. Yet their take on that material is so different that you could get mental and emotional whiplash watching the two back to back.

                        oWoD was essentially "Goblin Slayer" in tone and harshness. Even if you wanted to steer your game away from the worst elements of the setting it was still pretty dark regardless. V5 feels a lot like it is trying to be "That time I reincarnated as a slime" while pointing at the tropes still being the same setting as "Goblin Slayer" as proof to the established fans that it is the same game. But obviously the tone and nature of the material couldn't be more different.

                        Don't get me wrong though, both are enjoyable shows. But for completely different reasons, despite being very similar settings.

                        oWoD was a game where you were supposed to explore horror, despair, and darkness. Discussions about those subject matters were not only expected, but encouraged. With the release of V5, it feels like the attempt to pander to the alarmist elements of society have essentially villainized those topics to the point you can't have discussions about them, let alone have them in your game.
                        Do you have an example where V5 is no longer about "horror, despair and darkness"? Because to me, V5 has put those elements more to the front than ever before.

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                        • Originally posted by Thoth View Post
                          A couple of anime that recently released this season kind of encapsulate the problems being discussed. "That time I reincarnated as a slime" and "Goblin Slayer".

                          Both are set in generic middle ages magical fantasy settings with MMO/RPG elements being used. Yet their take on that material is so different that you could get mental and emotional whiplash watching the two back to back.

                          oWoD was essentially "Goblin Slayer" in tone and harshness. Even if you wanted to steer your game away from the worst elements of the setting it was still pretty dark regardless. V5 feels a lot like it is trying to be "That time I reincarnated as a slime" while pointing at the tropes still being the same setting as "Goblin Slayer" as proof to the established fans that it is the same game. But obviously the tone and nature of the material couldn't be more different.

                          Don't get me wrong though, both are enjoyable shows. But for completely different reasons, despite being very similar settings.
                          Do you think there's a significant difference in tone and nature of any older edition and V5? The whole gothic punk stuff seemed prevalent enough still. And the personal horror does seem well placed.

                          oWoD was a game where you were supposed to explore horror, despair, and darkness. Discussions about those subject matters were not only expected, but encouraged. With the release of V5, it feels like the attempt to pander to the alarmist elements of society have essentially villainized those topics to the point you can't have discussions about them, let alone have them in your game.
                          I would have to ask the same question as Cifer. How are you being disallowed from discussing or including horror, despair, and darkness? I just got V5 last week and it seems like it sticks to the aesthetic pretty well.

                          And not to pick on you, I always tend to see this (what I would call) alarmist slippery slope stuff in regards to things that attempt to be vaguely sensitive.

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                          • Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                            Is it possible you're misunderstanding what this is all about? Because the problem is not about cruelty and darkness existing in the World of Darkness. It really isn't. On the contrary, by discussing techniques like Lines and Veils, individual groups can tackle far darker topics than was safely possible in the 90s.
                            The problem arises when really existing peoples that suffer from persecution are used as props in ways that mischaracterize them and heap just a little bit more on their individual piles of prejudice.
                            There are many peoples in the world and all of them are characterized in ways that are both true and untrue. I'm trying to tell stories and some of those stories might have characters who reference people by their stereotypes because that's how the world works. I try to present the world how it is(perhaps even a bit worse due to the setting) and not how I wish it to be. I don't have to follow my NPC's ideologies to portray them that way.

                            edit: Also neither does White Wolf to include those terms or subjects in their material.
                            Last edited by Frontline989; 10-26-2018, 09:41 AM.

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                            • We live in the 2018, everyone has a soft skin and it is imposible not to offend somebody.

                              Plus Ultra Twitter and the other social networks are great becuase they allow people to express themselves in a public media but on the other hand they are machines of Mobs with torches at the service of the different ideologies from all the spectrum.

                              At the end of the day whatever you say will be criticized so what´s the point of self-censorship?
                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              I miss the days of the Great WoD and CoD where the writters would gladly give you a dominatrix waifu vampire saying to you:I will not tell that dominate is not similar to rape becuase it is , if you don´t find yourself confortable with the idea of taking someone else free will you will never dominate the lordly tongue.

                              The Greatness of the worlds of darkness is in the fact that it is a world made of differents tones of grey with some black and it is blunt about it becuase the darkness gives beuty to the light.

                              Meanwhile V5 tries to eliminate the shades of grey morality acting like a self-embarrased teenager who doesnt acknowledge himself for what it is triying to evade his own theme and reducing all the political conflict of grey into an infantilized manicheism where the greater evil is eliminated (No sabbat) , Anarch are good guys and the camarilla are Nazis and the plot becomes more simple as years of writting are throw into the nothingness along the War of Ages by eliminating the elders.

                              And It is sad becuase V5 had both the potential to be the greatest edition and also some good new ideas behind but failed horrible at the execution.
                              Last edited by Leandro16; 10-26-2018, 10:12 AM.


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                              • Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                                We live in the 2018, everyone has a soft skin and it is imposible not to offend somebody.
                                Which doesn't give carte blanche to say screw it and not have any consideration for people.

                                At the end of the day whatever you say will be criticized so what´s the point of self-censorship?
                                Because there is something to be said about making a good faith effort to depict things in a way one thinks is appropriate. Again, the idea that someone will always take offense or criticize doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.

                                Meanwhile V5 tries to eliminate the shades of grey morality acting like a self-embarrased teenager who doesnt acknowledge himself for what it is triying to evade his own theme and reducing all the political conflict of grey into an infantilized manicheism where the greater evil is eliminated (No sabbat) , Anarch are good guys and the camarilla are Nazis and the plot becomes more simple as years of writting are throw into the nothingness along the War of Ages by eliminating the elders.
                                I feel like those shades of gray are equally present. I don't think the book goes about it like you claim.
                                The Anarchs are suppose to be a disconnected mess of varying ideologies. And it isn't 'the Camarilla are NAZIs'.
                                The revolution is just the start, however. The real challenge for a politically minded neonate comes afterward. Does the revolution collapse into violence and brutality, or is it possible for a charismatic and ambitious lick to build their own utopia of blood?
                                It's not all gloom and doom in the Camarilla, however. For a young and ambitious vampire, the disappearance of so many elders has left space for upward mobility unheard of in the history of the sect. For the first time ever, a neonate can take over a domain if they play the game well enough. What’s more, many of the elders have left their estates, fortunes, and resources essentially abandoned, tended by a few confused blood servants. A sharp neonate can hijack a fortune accumulated over the millennia and use it for their own purposes.
                                Using this game to explore moral questions and immoral acts can be interesting and emotionally meaningful. After all, the character is not you, and the game is not real. You can use it as a fictional space to explore terrible things,and perhaps even have a little fun with them.

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