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  • Leandro16
    started a topic Hunger pool instead of hunger dice

    Hunger pool instead of hunger dice

    I don´t like Hunger Dice Mechanic for me
    • They aren´t giving us nothing new (Hunger frenzy was always a thing and the mechanic was better.)
    • They are also a waste of time no need for all those rolls (The master will frenzy at all)
    • They force a certain game style upon players (Low street level agnst leech crying over his dead girlfriend)
    • They get in the way of the players who want to do more thing than being hungry.Becuase if you roll them each time you do everything it´s very diffitcult to not be at high hunger all time or even frenzying.Mechanics should enforce the history and diverse gamestyles.
    • They divide the comunity bewetween those who like the 1-4th edition and those who like 5th
    • ETC....

    That said I like the concept of hunger ,it is one of the themes of vampire albeit not the only one.So I am fine with WW wanting to reinforce the hunger aspect what i am clearly not fine is how they did it so I questioned myself.There was really a need for WW to divide the comunnity? They could have give us a Hunger Pool instead of a hunger Dice , that way everyone would have been happy.I made the table and I wanted to share it.
    .
    Blood Potency Atributtes Max Hunger Hunger X Turn Bane Severity You can feed from
    1 5 10 1 1 Animals , stored blood ,Humans
    2 5 11 1 1 Animals , stored blood ,Humans
    3 5 12 1 2 Stored blood ,Humans
    4 5 13 2 2 Stored blood ,Humans
    5 5 15 3 3 Stored blood ,Humans
    6 6 20 4 3 Humans
    7 7 25 5 4 Humans
    8 8 30 6 4 Vitae
    9 9 40 8 5 Vitae
    10 10 50 10 5 Vitae

    How this works
    In the classic system you spend vitae to rise , regenerate and use the diverse gift of the blood like for example the disciplines now for what should cost you 1 vitae you instead win 1 hunger.When you Hunger pool if full you cannot activate more gifts of the blood and you enter in a hunger frenzy that will not finish until you replenish , If you don´t recover enouch blood to rise next night you fall in torpor.

    Torpor decreases the blood potency by one every 25 years of inactivity , every 50 years of activity the blood potency raises by 1 until it reach the generational maximun.By comitting diablerie upon a more powerful vampire you raise your blood potency by at least one and you also win the generation of your victim.
    Generation Min Blood Potency Max Blood Potency
    1-3 6 10
    4 5 9
    5 4 8
    6 3 7
    7 2 6
    8 1 5
    9 1 4
    10-13 1 3
    14 Thin blood Thin blood
    15 Thin blood Thin blood

    Clash of Wills Mechanic (Optional)
    To activate or resist magical effects from other characters powers (Disciplines , gifts or spheres etc...) you must win a clash of wills against them.This is a confronted roll and the dicepool for this is blood potency + willpower vs power trait + willpower.

    Optional Rules for agnst games or sessions (OPTIONAL becuase everyone deserves to play the way they want and also one day you might want an agnst session)
    • Trow a dice or a coin to see if you get extra hungry and if you do duplicate the hunger you get that turn (That way you take control from your players without reliying only in luck as the Max Hunger still gives you an insured blood pool you can rely , but not abuse , way more precise than Hunger Dices).
    • Instead of one hunger when rising use your bane severity to determine how much hunger you get (If you want to reinforce more the fact of getting elder increasing your hunger)
    • To get your hunger below your bane severity you must kill (To reflect the blood thirst of the beast)
    Last edited by Leandro16; 10-21-2018, 02:12 PM.

  • Leandro16
    replied
    Originally posted by maekkel View Post
    Example an Elder with BP 6 has up to 20 points in it´s Hungerpool. It will be starving as quickly as everybody else, but it can go deeper into the Hunger, but also has the downside it needs more blood before it does not feel starving anymore. Which makes Hungerfrenzy by elders a lot more devastating, because one victim will in many instances not be sufficient. (Which is my interpretation what Leandro wants to accomplish here.)
    Yeah that is the point.

    I like your idea of adding conditions or frenzy penalties according to how much gas you have left
    Hunger at 5 You start getting Hungry and get -1 penalty to frenzy and social rolls with humans as you start to see them as prey.
    Hunger at 10 You are Ravenous and get -2 penalty to frenzy rolls.Due the hunger making you a clock bomb at his state a failed social roll means with an human means at this point is a Frenzy check.
    Hunger at 20 There is no hunger like the one from elders at this point you get -3 to all frenzy and social rolls even with another supernaturals.A failure in a social roll at this point means doing a frenzy check.
    Max Hunger You enter in an Hunger Frenzy that won´t stop until you have reduced your Hunger to 0.
    Of course for this to work the frenzy check must be done using willpower as a dice pool for frenzy unless you want to make being a brujah extra hard.


    OPTIONAL RULES The base hunger pool system being an inverted bloodpool is on purpourse becuase it works wonderfully no matter what story you want to tell but also becuase allows you to add extra rules to acomodate your story like the ones you proposed or even have randomization without things getting determined by pure luck.Here are some of the optional rules i designed so far:
    Alternate Rouse Check When you fail to use a discipline that needs to be rolled you add your blood potency to your hunger.
    Night Breakfast You get as many hunger points at awakening as blood potency/2 you have. Elders aren´t less hungry than neonates in fact their power is the ability to be more ravenous.
    Life Devourer You would never be able to reduce below your bane severity your victim unless you kills your prey , this means that blood potency 9-10 are almost always hungry.
    What can I say I am kind a big fan of giving the players and ST a sandbox of tools they can customize

    PD:Thanks for the review and inspiration

    Leave a comment:


  • maekkel
    replied
    Heeellloo Everyone.
    I followed the discussion and now will give my 5 cents to it. I won´t argue with you about divisiveness.

    I´m telling a story for 4 freshly embraced licks in a Requiem game WITH V5 Hunger mechanics. (When it says in Requiem to use a point of Vitae, then it´s a Rouse Check. It´s an easy hack and worked fine.)
    After roughly about 100+ hours of gaming it I came to certain conclusions regarding V5 Hunger.

    - It makes both as a player and ST the game a lot more random(fun! ^__^): The freshly embraced Ventrue clinged hard to his Humanity and declined drinking ANY blood, but was successful with EVERY rouse check after each day - which fed storywise wonderfully into his denial of his new existence! Meanwhile the Gangrel who used heavily Protean killed already a human in Hungerfrenzy and was almost always on the Edge due to almost always failing her rouse checks.
    - Hungerdice is both heaven and hell as a mechanic in the dicepool, especially for me as a ST.
    - Hunting for blood becomes way more prominent in game with V5 hunger mechanics. A vampire with Hunger 2 can quickly reach Hunger 5 by only 3 times of rousing the blood. My players get quite anxious to hunt as quickly before they reach hunger 5. Also reaching Hunger 0 is a sweet spot. Not only widens it the possible use of Blood by 20% percent(Which is a lot!) But I also homeruled that a Vampire with hunger 0 get´s +2 to resist Frenzies and +1 to rouse-the-blood-checks, also social dice penalitiey vs. mortals are reduced by 1.
    2 of my players like that the other 2 don´t. - in the future I plan to use Geraukis "Between the Scenes" game hack to roll Hunting more into a specialized scene and into between-sessions-time.
    - Hunger is huge game changer regarding the power levels between younger and older vampires, just because if an elder is unlucky with it´s rouse checks, it will be on the bringe of frenzy latest after 5 rousings of the blood. (In my games I assume that most my NPC´s have about Hunger 1 or 2). On the other hand I had our Daeva in the group heal 5 levels of lethal damage without getting hungrier.
    - Rolling for Rousing of the blood are additional dice rools - that is a thing I don´t like.
    - I personally like that even a Vampire with Hunger 0 has this uncertainity that they don´t know how long they will last before the Beast want´s to claim them. Will it be 5 or 15 rolls? I observed it nicely in my players - which is complety on theme and mood for Vampire the Requiem with me - that it keeps Players anxious and on the edge, very much likes vampires perceive it.


    I can see a benefit to Leandros Hunger-Pool system (no additional dice rolls, more planable - to benefit more "epic" games), but I would actually make it more about hunger, in the current mode it appears to much as an "inverted" Bloodpool.
    But I would add additional things to actually make that elder vampires experience hunger much heavier than Neonates.
    - Hunger can´t be lowered below 2, without draining a mortal/vessel completly.
    - All Vampires get the Hungry Condition at Hungerpool 8-9, They get the Starving Condition by reaching Hunger 10+.
    - Draining a mortal(or other adequate Vessel) completly reduces Hunger by 10(or unmarked healtlevels). Which means that older vampires can´t easily reach Hunger 0 by killing just one mortal, or need a lot of "safe for mortals"-hunting(which is actually not really safe as long as a vampire is starving ;-) ).
    - Example an Elder with BP 6 has up to 20 points in it´s Hungerpool. It will be starving as quickly as everybody else, but it can go deeper into the Hunger, but also has the downside it needs more blood before it does not feel starving anymore. Which makes Hungerfrenzy by elders a lot more devastating, because one victim will in many instances not be sufficient. (Which is my interpretation what Leandro wants to accomplish here.)

    That is all for now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Monalfie
    replied
    Originally posted by KarlB View Post
    ALL changes are by their nature are fairly divisive.
    Again, I refuse this idea. There are fair degrees of difference in how divisive some changes can be compared to others.
    Bringing up that divisiveness as an argument serves no one.
    Doesn't seem as much an argument as an observation that evidences a possible need.

    Leave a comment:


  • KarlB
    replied
    Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
    Pretending that all changes are equally divisive is nonsense. No harm in throwing out alternatives for a noted disagreement.
    ALL changes are by their nature are fairly divisive. Bringing up that divisiveness as an argument serves no one. You can bring up alternatives to a set of rules you dislike without doing what amounts to "White Wolf should known better than to change some things that people might dislike". Like ... who cares? Judge the rules for the rules themselves and not because some people might be butthurt, ya?
    Last edited by KarlB; 09-24-2018, 05:03 PM.

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  • Monalfie
    replied
    Originally posted by KarlB View Post
    Also, was the whole "dividing the community" nonsense really that necessary in your original post and followup comments? No one cares about your feelings, and every single RPG that's ever been made and that has had different editions has ran into these types of situations. Some people like the new, some people like the old. But bringing up the fact that some people may not like change as a con just lessens your credibility. Please refrain from comments such as those when debating change.
    Pretending that all changes are equally divisive is nonsense. No harm in throwing out alternatives for a noted disagreement.

    Leave a comment:


  • KarlB
    replied
    Honestly, Leandro, what you're advocating is a return to the previous editions' ways of handling spending blood and hunger, but with a few added elements. Given how heavily integrated the new Hunger system is within V5's base dice rolling mechanic, I don't think your idea would fit as a V5 'mod'. Instead, I recommend simply playing a previous edition like V20 and then modding THAT instead.

    Also, was the whole "dividing the community" nonsense really that necessary in your original post and followup comments? No one cares about your feelings, and every single RPG that's ever been made and that has had different editions has ran into these types of situations. Some people like the new, some people like the old. But bringing up the fact that some people may not like change as a con just lessens your credibility. Please refrain from comments such as those when debating change.

    Leave a comment:


  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Trippy View Post
    You get more facility to carry out vampiric powers with higher Blood Potency, but you don't get a greater capacity of Hunger. I'm not attacking V5, because it is very clear in what is meant by Blood Potency and Hunger in those rules, and what the relationships are between all the various drives and statistics. I'm saying that your mechanic isn't. It's not a solution as replacement for the current rules.
    We have a sliding scale of how hungry you are; in V5 it is hunger, rated on 1-5 if you're not a murderer) in Previous editions it scaled to a higher max, but was still a linear progression
    In V5 elders can manage their empty to full scale better because they do more with a "Point" of their hunger (or potential point, since it's semi randomized) Heal more, pump more etc. They can also get less hungry because of the reroll mechanic for certain levels of power activation; instead of 50% chance of increasing hunger, it's a 25% chance;
    In a blood pool mechanic (or as above) There is no randomization of whether or not you are depleted or made hungry, it's a constant, each action has an amount that it will affect you, or it won't.
    An elder scales between full or empty by having a greater numerical value to play with instead of doing more with one application of something that (may) make you hungrier.
    With double the blood pool, you can do twice what someone can do, just as though you could heal twice as much per hunger roll or reroll every thing that you roll to Rouse for.

    Functionally they both have the same effect (Rousing randomization aside) of an elder being able to do about double than a neonate could do (with 10 blood pool and no rerolls for rousing) though they do it differently mechanically.

    The Above system, compared to "Hunger" or other "Blood Pool systems" Does factor in Elders definitely needing more blood to sustain themselves on a night by night basis as opposed to just the nature of the blood to be imbibed.
    Technically in V5 you could go weeks or months without feeding to increase hunger because of lucky rolls on nightly rouse rolls. Just like in a combat, you could be pulling off non stop healing, blood buffing and discipline activation and be no hungrier at the end of it.
    Blood pools may be seen as a "Gas tank" by some, but it's a more consistent gauge of your capabilities.

    Leave a comment:


  • Leandro16
    replied
    Okey today I got lucky and I got the change to test the Homebrew in a game session with my players (A tremere , a Brujah and a Ravnos) my experience with the Hunger Pool is that it not only does his job well and also includes interesting concepts like bane severity and feeding restriction (The last thing was something I already homebrewed 2 years ago).Now their Opinion
    • The Brujah Player:She was reticent at first but at the end loved the fact that I managed to import hunger without it being intrusive like in V5.His initial reticency came from the fact that she bought V5 becuase the Hype and ended disliking the Hunger Dice along other things.
    • The Tremere Player:He liked the system , in his words I aren´t doing something drastic that changes the gamestyle but reinforcing mechanics and themes of the game with is something he likes in a narrative system.
    • The Ravnos Player:He prefered a decreasing Vitae Pool instead of an Increasing Hunger Pool that gives him a sense of control but he said that in the end the hunger pool worked the same so it is more a physcological trick.Also liked the optional rules aspect becuase it allows to adjust thing like if it where a videogame.
    About the optional mechanics they felt that Bane Severity afecting the hunger you win when you rise and the permanent hunger you have unless you drain your prey is a neat adition that they wanted to kept , it didnt get in the way of the history but added to the theme of elders getting hungrier.

    About the optional rule that allows Variable Hunger Rise rule we only tested it in one scene instead of the entire session becuase it requires an extra roll and both I and my players like to reduce the number of rolls to make everything more dinamic and quick.The general conclusion is that it emulates the hunger dice but without being intrusive.

    For last during the session we devoloped a new houserule about the bestial failures , as we don´t like neither use Hunger Dice We decided to use them at ST discretion when a player fails a roll .It works pretty well becuase I can make a player succed when it adds to the history but also makes the succed a little bit messy.At suggestion of my Ravnos player we are worndering to make botchs add 1 hunger becuase the frustation increases the thirst of blood of the beast.

    PD:For those wondering about the system we used it was a V20 game with some homebrews.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trippy
    replied
    Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post

    My reaction is that we should play a system that allows player to play however they want.I designed one.

    I love how you keep saying don´t dare to have fun.Don´t you see mine is the true way of having fun.

    Also you if you are a higher blood potency character you , can heal more , use more powers and buff more , but that isnt a bloodpool with rolls AT ALL.

    I think i will just live you alone with your contradictions.Keep attacking V5 you are doing bizarrely well.
    Well, it's not a question of fun or freedom of play, it's a question of how good the system that you propose is for doing the job you say it's designed for. You're proposing that your system is a better system than what is presented in V5 - but it isn't really. Pointing that out isn't being fun police (and nor is clarifying things from V5), it's just providing criticism - that you seem to have no problem dishing out to the original game system. Or, based on your own standards, are you trying to deny the fun and freedom of playing with V5 as it is?

    And, yes, if you have a higher blood potency character you can indeed, heal more, use more powers and buff more (agreed!) - but it isn't a measure of Hunger which is a distinct measurement of another thing, independent of blood potency, which is also not a measure of how much blood capacity a vampire has.
    Last edited by Trippy; 09-22-2018, 08:03 AM.

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  • Leandro16
    replied
    Originally posted by Trippy View Post
    So, your reaction against any criticism of your own One True Way that you think we should play, is to cry "OneTrueWayism"?. Well, that figures!
    My reaction is that we should play a system that allows player to play however they want.I designed one.

    Originally posted by Trippy View Post
    The V5 game actually states that vampires at Blood Potency 6 and greater….. (p217 - on the page opposite the table). Blood Potency 5 is technically the highest level of player character, and do get higher abilities to use blood effectively for Disciplines, healing and buffing, but they still don't increase their capacity for Hunger.
    I love how you keep saying don´t dare to have fun.Don´t you see mine is the true way of having fun.

    Also you if you are a higher blood potency character you , can heal more , use more powers and buff more , but that isnt a bloodpool with rolls AT ALL.

    I think i will just live you alone with your contradictions.Keep attacking V5 you are doing bizarrely well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trippy
    replied
    Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post

    I love the smell of OneTrueWaysm when a Rolplaying Game tells me something is unplayable or you can´t play that way.You are having fun wrong how you dare?

    I love even more that you are eliminating elders becuase they crerly have a higher Blood Pool in V5 but last time i checked the blood potency table went to 10 and also even a blood potency 5 guy can reroll disciplines up to level 3 , heal more and buff more becuase he is techinically spending more blood becuase his blood pool is higher.Hunger Dice are just a blood pool with intrusive rolls designed to take the fredom of gamestyle from the players
    So, your reaction against any criticism of your own One True Way that you think we should play, is to cry "OneTrueWayism"?. Well, that figures!

    The V5 game actually states that vampires at Blood Potency 6 and greater…..
    "are not intended as player characters, and they are only included in the Blood Potency table for Storyteller purposes only."
    (p217 - on the page opposite the table).

    Blood Potency 5 is technically the highest level of player character, and do get higher abilities to use blood effectively for Disciplines, healing and buffing, but they still don't increase their capacity for Hunger which is capped at 5 for all vampires. Hunger dice do not work in the same way as the old Blood pool, and don't really fulfill the same role. I don't find them obtrusive in the game either - more flavoursome and neat - but that is a different debate of course.
    Last edited by Trippy; 09-22-2018, 07:40 AM.

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  • Leandro16
    replied
    Originally posted by Trippy View Post
    You don't get a higher capacity for Hunger as an Elder - it's capped at a level 5 for everybody. What Elders get, who are still meant to be unplayable NPCs at Blood Potency 6+ by the way, is a greater capacity to use Disciplines without Rousing the Blood. And Hunger Dice are not a Blood Pool - they are a representation of the drive or need for blood, not the amount of blood taken in or potentially taken in. It's practically the opposite of a Blood pool, which is why making a flat increase in a 'Hunger Pool' in conjunction with Blood Potency makes no sense.
    I love the smell of OneTrueWaysm when a Rolplaying Game tells me something is unplayable or you can´t play that way.You are having fun wrong how you dare?

    I love even more that you are eliminating elders becuase they crerly have a higher Blood Pool in V5 but last time i checked the blood potency table went to 10 and also even a blood potency 5 guy can reroll disciplines up to level 3 , heal more and buff more becuase he is techinically spending more blood becuase his blood pool is higher.Hunger Dice are just a blood pool with intrusive rolls designed to take the fredom of gamestyle from the players

    Leave a comment:


  • Trippy
    replied
    Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post

    In V5 You get higher capacity for hunger as an Elder becuase if you can re-roll rousechecks then the chances of getting hunger dices are lower and as consecuence you can use more blood to activate more powers.Higher Blood buff and healing are also a way to portray higher blood consumotion.At the end of the night Hunger Dice are only a bloopool with intrusive rollls so yo are both being contradictory , critizing V5 and denying reality.


    In my system you can "choose" to represent Hunger to the same extent of V5 or even more without intrusive rolls with makes the mechanic more clean and better.Also you can adapt it to play however you want.
    You don't get a higher capacity for Hunger as an Elder - it's capped at a level 5 for everybody. What Elders get, who are still meant to be unplayable NPCs at Blood Potency 6+ by the way, is a greater capacity to use Disciplines without Rousing the Blood. And Hunger Dice are not a Blood Pool - they are a representation of the drive or need for blood, not the amount of blood taken in or potentially taken in. It's practically the opposite of a Blood pool, which is why making a flat increase in a 'Hunger Pool' in conjunction with Blood Potency makes no sense.
    Last edited by Trippy; 09-22-2018, 07:04 AM.

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  • Leandro16
    replied
    Originally posted by Trippy View Post
    You get more facility to carry out vampiric powers with higher Blood Potency, but you don't get a greater capacity of Hunger. I'm not attacking V5, because it is very clear in what is meant by Blood Potency and Hunger in those rules, and what the relationships are between all the various drives and statistics. I'm saying that your mechanic isn't. It's not a solution as replacement for the current rules.
    In V5 You get higher capacity for hunger as an Elder becuase if you can re-roll rousechecks then the chances of getting hunger dices are lower and as consecuence you can use more blood to activate more powers.Higher Blood buff and healing are also a way to portray higher blood consumotion.At the end of the night Hunger Dice are only a bloopool with intrusive rollls so yo are both being contradictory , critizing V5 and denying reality.


    In my system you can "choose" to represent Hunger to the same extent of V5 or even more without intrusive rolls with makes the mechanic more clean and better.Also you can adapt it to play however you want.

    Leave a comment:

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