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  • #16
    Personally I feel like Asia should have Vampires inspired by Asian Myths. The Hungry Dead are good in that regard.

    One thing I don't like however is the way Kuei Jin were framed as "better than western Kindred" in such a broad sense. It's awesome that Ming Xiao can give us a "The Reason You Suck" speech, but sometimes the books strayed into making the Hungry Dead better than Cainites generally.

    Here's how I'm running them.

    - Kindred know relatively little about them, and have heard rumours about them being Demons in Dead Bodies or being natural enemies of Kindred.

    - They know little about Kindred. They don't understand clans or bloodlines since the idea is alien to them, and they have names for the "Paths" they have observed Kindred following, believing that Ventrue (for example) were adopted into a society of Ventrue rather than simply being embraced as Ventrue.

    - Those in Asia are part of a structured society which values order and diplomacy. Those outside of Asia are the self-appointed shepherds of ethnic communities; for example you would find a Kuei Jin at the heart of the Chinatown in Manchester, preying on the population, protecting them and working to maintain cultural and religious traditions.

    - For the most part they are strongly isolationist. Their interest is in stopping the sixth age and the rise of the Yama Kings, and the battleground for that is the Middle Kingdom. Those in the US and Europe, for example, are often exceptions. They may be traveling because they feel that is part of their Path, or they may have their own selfish ends. The average interaction a Prince would have with one of the Wan Kuei is securing her support in exchange for making sure that no one uses Chinatown for their feeding grounds.

    So in my game there is one single Hungry Dead, a Wan Kuei, in Manchester. She'll want the Anarchs to agree that no one can feed upon the populace within Chinatown, and that Kindred are to not interfere there. In exchange she would promise non-aggression in Manchester... and also to ensure that the Wan Kuei in London create problems for the Sabbat and Camarilla. The problem is that a large art gallery frequented by many Toreador is within the boundaries of Chinatown, which complicates matters; is their presence interference? Are they not to feed while they're there? Why would they accept such orders from a Baron? Beyond that, she may have her own agenda in wanting to take advantage of the Anarch populace in London; after all if they're making trouble for Queen Anne and the Archbishop and the Anarchs in London have heard that they shouldn't interfere with this, then that makes it easier for them to claim greater control over London's Chinatown.
    Last edited by 11twiggins; 09-23-2018, 07:59 AM.

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    • #17
      Okey , I tried to rework the Kue Jin as a clan.

      Kue Jin as a Clan
      The idea is to redesign them as a clan made by the Strix (A hunger spirit that resides in the deeps of the abyss that I ported from requiem) , the plan of the strix is to capture souls and force or trick them in resurrecting as vampires to posses them.The generation of original Kue Jin is randomized depending of the power of the strix that resurrected them (Their minimal generation would be six for balance pourporses).The Kue Jin belive the Strix to be the Yama Kings.

      This also helps make the Ravnos more interesting becuase they are now fighting the Birds of Dis an enemy that once was also the LaSombra enemy being their quest keeping them at bay and that´s why they are called guardians and the reason becuase they devoloped obtenebration.Sadly the LaSombra Clan abandoned and forgot his function after the fall of Rome to dedicate himself to power plays in the Jyhad.Now the Strix is a myth like the Antidiluvians.

      They don´t have to be Asian but the great majority of the clan it is becuase in camarilla and other sects strongholds the recently resurrected Kue-Jin are seen as a caitiff and becuase of that they are slayed meanwhile in Asia they have some cities under control with makes them have a posibility to survive.They represent the vampire as a monster that appears suddenly and are the reason why people bury their decesed or burn their corpses.

      Organization:The Kue Jin organize themselves in Dharmas or schools of paths of enlighment that they follow to keep the beast at bay , each school has different beliefs and is controlled by a Sage that serves as a spiritual leader and protector to their youngers.The most powerful sage of a Domain is the Damyio and has the responsability to protect the Kue Jin under their command in exclange of vassaladge

      Clan Disciplines: Auxpex , Celerity and Kai
      Clan Weakness:
      The Kue Jin substract their Bane Severity from their dicepool to resist all the powers of the Strix like the possesion.Many strix play with them acting as his po.

      Note Kai is a discipline about balance very similar to obeah and Valeren.It has two path the first one is designed to help the kue jin to keep the beast and the strix at bay the other path allows the Kue Jin to substract energy from the the beast to empower himself and at the level 5 allows to learn Cruac/Koldunism.Will you sacrifice enlighment for power?

      Reviews?
      Last edited by Leandro16; 09-23-2018, 08:16 AM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Alucard View Post
        Didn't the big white room simulation thread show that the Kuejin are overrated compared to Kindred?

        White Room simulations tend to be inherently flawed in that they favor mechanical numbers rather than versatility or strategy. Kind of like the episodes of Deadliest Warrior where the historical outcomes were completely opposite of the mechanical break downs of the fights. Such as the Germans winning WWII and America winning the Viet Nam war.

        For instance the common example is say a Gangrel with Fortitude 5 and Protean 5 vs say a Devil Tiger with Demon Shintai 5 and Iron Mountain 5. Most people assume the two just run straight at each other and claw each other to death. Both have agg damage, but the Gangrel has more dice to apply to agg damage soak, so people assume the Gangrel wins. This is correct by the math, but incorrect based on the mechanics and strategy.

        For instance the Devil Tiger could close the agg soak gap with Demon Shintai and they could have taken wings. This means you now have a flying Kuei-Jin vs. a grounded Grangrel. This changes everything because either the Devil Tiger stays out of range and blasts the Gangrel or they do swooping attacks that only allow one attack from each in any given round. Alternatively the Gangrel theoretically could assume the form of a bat and try to fly up to and tackle the Devil Tiger, but that just burned a lot of blood points and doesn't give them much of an attack.
        All of a sudden the Kuei-Jin went from being the underdog to slightly over powered based on how Demon Shintai is used.

        Of course all of this doesn't even get even close to touching on the artifact crafting aspect of the Kuei-jin. Every Dharma has a form of it and even if the individual doesn't yet have the stats to make their own, they can be taken at character generation or traded for. Cainites don't work this way and only a few clans have access to such things and even then when comparing artifacts, the Kuei-jin stuff is very powerful.

        A good example is just having jade items that store extra chi. Now most people would say that this is no different than carrying around a blood bag, except that the chi items don't require refrigeration, tend to be less delicate, usually less bulky, and best of all aren't immediately identifiable as a resource. Thus a Devil Tiger could have essentially a much bigger chi pool than the Cainite would expect, but the cainite has no idea which item is just jewelry and which is an emergency energy refill.

        Alternatively you could bind a greater spirit into a talisman, which in turn allows you to add its soak dice to your own pool and use it against agg damage. Having an extra 10 to 20 soak dice vs agg damage makes a Gangrel with Fortitude 5 rather anemic, and that's before bringing up the modifications made by Iron Mountain.

        So yeah, White Room tests rarely are as all encompassing as they need to be.

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        • #19
          When I was younger I didn't mind the Kuei Jin. I played a couple games with them and had a good time but over the years they always stood out as a game that never fit well into the WoD cosmology. I would prefer if they were reworked to be more of a bloodline of Kindred. I liked how in BJD they mentioned that the African vampires are descendants of the 13 clans and I'd prefer if they Kuei Jin were also.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
            Isn’t it the Hun that goes to Yomi and your animalistic soul stays in your corpse?
            Nope. The Hun floats around the corpse. The Po goes to hell and becomes a demon. It might seem backward, but the Hungry Dead are fundamentally wrong and also have warped standards of Yin and Yang.

            Which reminds me; it might do to tie together Yin with Po and Yang with Hun if you wanted to follow the standards a bit more closely.

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            • #21
              Anybody remember the "Bushi" in the Vancouver: Dark Alliance supplement? "Back in the day" the earlier thinking was the Kindred of the East were clans of their own. Before the Bushi, we had the "Gaki" from the World of Darkness sourcebook. These were clans of Japan. While they had their own origin myths but they existed within the Vampire: The Masquerade "framework" they were still forms of "Kindred." I too, would prefer that the Kuei Jin fit into the Vampire the Masquerade framework; being Embraced, and so forth. Perhaps as very specific bloodlines of the Kindred clans, if those sorts of bloodlines will remain part of the setting in V5.The eastern Kindred could certainly have their own origin and creation myths, and understanding what it means to be "Damned" through their own mortal religious perceptions.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                Okey , I tried to rework the Kue Jin as a clan.

                Kue Jin as a Clan
                The idea is to redesign them as a clan made by the Strix (A hunger spirit that resides in the deeps of the abyss that I ported from requiem) , the plan of the strix is to capture souls and force or trick them in resurrecting as vampires to posses them.The generation of original Kue Jin is randomized depending of the power of the strix that resurrected them (Their minimal generation would be six for balance pourporses).The Kue Jin belive the Strix to be the Yama Kings.

                This also helps make the Ravnos more interesting becuase they are now fighting the Birds of Dis an enemy that once was also the LaSombra enemy being their quest keeping them at bay and that´s why they are called guardians and the reason becuase they devoloped obtenebration.Sadly the LaSombra Clan abandoned and forgot his function after the fall of Rome to dedicate himself to power plays in the Jyhad.Now the Strix is a myth like the Antidiluvians.

                They don´t have to be Asian but the great majority of the clan it is becuase in camarilla and other sects strongholds the recently resurrected Kue-Jin are seen as a caitiff and becuase of that they are slayed meanwhile in Asia they have some cities under control with makes them have a posibility to survive.They represent the vampire as a monster that appears suddenly and are the reason why people bury their decesed or burn their corpses.

                Organization:The Kue Jin organize themselves in Dharmas or schools of paths of enlighment that they follow to keep the beast at bay , each school has different beliefs and is controlled by a Sage that serves as a spiritual leader and protector to their youngers.The most powerful sage of a Domain is the Damyio and has the responsability to protect the Kue Jin under their command in exclange of vassaladge

                Clan Disciplines: Auxpex , Celerity and Kai
                Clan Weakness:
                The Kue Jin substract their Bane Severity from their dicepool to resist all the powers of the Strix like the possesion.Many strix play with them acting as his po.

                Note Kai is a discipline about balance very similar to obeah and Valeren.It has two path the first one is designed to help the kue jin to keep the beast and the strix at bay the other path allows the Kue Jin to substract energy from the the beast to empower himself and at the level 5 allows to learn Cruac/Koldunism.Will you sacrifice enlighment for power?

                Reviews?

                Honestly? They seem to be a minor Japanese Bloodline possibly originated by a Toreador. Which is fine. There are actually a lot of Cainites in Asia according to the WW published lore despite peoples insistance there aren't.

                The thing I like about KotE is it allows you to, with some adjustments, make any sort of non modern-fiction vampire ( ie. bite infection model) you want. The flexibility of the KotE system is such that you can use the same mechanics to create a Leyak as you can to create a Shuten Dōji as you can to create a Yuki-onna as you can to create a Manananggal as you can to create an Aswang etc.

                Honestly as long as a Cainite stays away from any living relative or 'project' of a 'Wan Kuei' and doesn't precatice thaumaturgy near a Dragon Nest the two can coexist quite happily.

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                • #23
                  From where I’m sitting, the most interesting part of the kuei-Jin (who need to be renamed at the very least as that nonsense name literally can’t be written in Chinese or Japanese) worth preserving are the Dharmas. I guess those would be translated into Paths if Enlightenment I’d you made them East Asian Kindred.

                  But that’s why i’ve never liked the idea of them as a culturally neutral global phenomenon. The most interesting thing about them is vehemently NOT culturally neutral, being vampiric reflections/perversions of Buddhism (centipedes), Confucianism (cranes), Taoism (dragons), Legalism (devil-tigers), ancestor worship (shadows)...


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                  • #24
                    I'd like to see them continue to be their own thing, and get a fairly significant overhaul mechanically and thematically. That said, do I expect White Wolf to successfully pull that off? In a word, no.


                    “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Damian May View Post
                      Honestly? They seem to be a minor Japanese Bloodline possibly originated by a Toreador. Which is fine. There are actually a lot of Cainites in Asia according to the WW published lore despite peoples insistance there aren't.
                      If you are talking about the discipline set yes , there is a resemblance but their origins related to the strix and the fact that they can be embraced by spirit and appear out of nowhere along their clan culture make them very different form the toreador.

                      Now talking about their discipline set
                      Auxpex is there becuase of the conection of the kue jin toward the spiritual realms and also as a natural adaptation against theRavnos
                      Celerity is there mainly to emulate flash steps from manga and anime and becuase the first
                      Finally Kai is there becuase Iike clans to have a unique discipline and it is a call back to the gaki

                      The other options was:Potence Obfuscate and Kai to make greater the resemblance to the Gaki or making 2 of their disciplines random + Kai to make them more resemblant to caitiff making them the True Caitiff clan and that is very treatening , not only becuase it plays with the strix importance in vampire origins suggesting that some clan may come from them although not all. but also becuase the impredictibility.

                      Imagine you being an elder and suddenly discover that out there exist a clan or a bloodline with randomized power , but they are not caitiff , they have an organized structure and that you cannot extint them becuase they can be embraced by spirits from other dimension that can also posses them and have obscure plans and an alien mentality (The Strix/Yamma kings).

                      What of the three do you find more interesting

                      PD:I dind´t knew about the flexibility of KotE i migh reread the mechanical part to take some ideas from it.Thanks

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                      • #26
                        I am considering making four bloodlines of Kuei-jin, all descended from 4th Generation Salubri. None of the modern clans have the third eye but it is spoken of in texts and some older ones have it.

                        A warrior
                        A noble
                        A priest/mystic
                        A "Commoner" clan


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Damian May View Post


                          Honestly? They seem to be a minor Japanese Bloodline possibly originated by a Toreador. Which is fine. There are actually a lot of Cainites in Asia according to the WW published lore despite peoples insistance there aren't.

                          The thing I like about KotE is it allows you to, with some adjustments, make any sort of non modern-fiction vampire ( ie. bite infection model) you want. The flexibility of the KotE system is such that you can use the same mechanics to create a Leyak as you can to create a Shuten Dōji as you can to create a Yuki-onna as you can to create a Manananggal as you can to create an Aswang etc.

                          Honestly as long as a Cainite stays away from any living relative or 'project' of a 'Wan Kuei' and doesn't precatice thaumaturgy near a Dragon Nest the two can coexist quite happily.
                          In some cases, a Shuten Doji results from when Orochi dies.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                            making 2 of their disciplines random + Kai to make them more resemblant to caitiff making them the True Caitiff clan and that is very treatening , not only becuase it plays with the strix importance in vampire origins suggesting that some clan may come from them although not all. but also becuase the impredictibility.

                            Imagine you being an elder and suddenly discover that out there exist a clan or a bloodline with randomized power , but they are not caitiff , they have an organized structure and that you cannot extint them becuase they can be embraced by spirits from other dimension that can also posses them and have obscure plans and an alien mentality (The Strix/Yamma kings).
                            I like this idea

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                              I am considering making four bloodlines of Kuei-jin, all descended from 4th Generation Salubri. None of the modern clans have the third eye but it is spoken of in texts and some older ones have it.

                              A warrior
                              A noble
                              A priest/mystic
                              A "Commoner" clan
                              Eh. I think that it's a good option, but one of the cool things about the Wan Kuei in Bloodlines is how Ming Xiao says "Ha! We are not simply some exotic Cainite bloodline." I like that the KotE are based on Asian Vampire myths personally, even if they are difficult to use in crossover.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                                Eh. I think that it's a good option, but one of the cool things about the Wan Kuei in Bloodlines is how Ming Xiao says "Ha! We are not simply some exotic Cainite bloodline." I like that the KotE are based on Asian Vampire myths personally, even if they are difficult to use in crossover.
                                While true, I also think it's just better to integrate them.

                                But YMMV.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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