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  • #61
    By the way this doesn't mean that Kue-Jin are weaker than Cainites, I even dare say that the first 5 levels of Dharma powers are stronger than the first 5 levels of discipline powers.
    But rules at hands there is a big gap when it comes to Dharma 9 and Discipline 9 powers, and if you are serching for an equivalent of the Anti inside Kindred of the East you should not look at Arhats, who are as powerful as Methuselahs, but at the Yama King when they are in their "weakened" form outside Yomi*.



    *Besides there are reasons if the Kue-Jin thinks that Zao-Lat is (alongside Mikaboshi) the main candidate to become the Demon Emperor, and there are reasons if Zao-Lat was the first student of the Grand Arhat Xue, just as there are reasons if the Kue-Jin identified Ravnos with the Yama King Ravana.
    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 09-27-2018, 04:13 PM.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post

      I'm afraid you will have to provide source for that claim, because I can't remember such thing has ever been said in the KOTE line.
      The books that came out later drifted a rather far distance away from it. As is typically the case with WoD games, the first iteration is for public playtesting.

      I suppose you are quoting Cry of Blood

      Cry of Blood
      At this level, the Kuei-jin's Kiai powers become so great that
      he can cause physical injury merely by raising his voice.
      System: The Kuei-jin spends a point of Yin Chi and rolls
      Stamina + Occult (difficulty 7). Every success causes the
      victim to take a number of health levels of aggravated

      damage equal to the Kuei-jin's Dharma level. Wraiths, spirits,
      demons, and others who are not entirely corporeal are
      immune to this power.

      It really doesn't stand out.
      Ha.

      Jaws of the Dracon (Koldunic Sorcery
      7, all five Koldunic Ways at 5)

      With this power, a vampire may unleash all the
      elements in a storm of unbridled supernatural power.
      The storm scourges everything in its path, raining
      lightning, fire, hail and grinding earth in a conflagration
      that defies imagination. The very existence of
      such a spell lies shrouded in myth and legend; no
      vampire has cast it in recorded memory.
      System: The koldun spends an hour standing still
      on the soil, gathering the energies that will empower
      the spell. The player rolls Charisma + Occult (difficulty
      8) and spends all remaining blood
      . This drives
      the kolduninto immediate frenzy. Tempest-torn clouds
      build in the sky over the next hour, reaching their
      apex of size and fury as fire begins to rain. For every
      success, the storm has a radius of one mile. Everything
      in that region suffers dice of aggravated damage equal
      to the koldun’s Willpower + Occult. This damage
      occurs sometime over the span of one hour, after
      which the clouds part to reveal the devastation. Inanimate
      objects suffer damage determined by the
      Storyteller; assume that the storm destroys virtually
      everything in its path.
      Honestly, the general effects of altering weather mean that Storm Shintai 5 has that beaten. It can summon up mega-storms, and probably even easier in modern times. It's just one Discipline that people discount, too; if it got up to powers beyond five dots, it'd probably be a nightmare.

      Quietus 7

      ••••• •• Baal’s Bloody Talons


      System: The character coats an edged weapon with
      her own blood, as per Baal’s Caress. The player spends
      one or more blood points and rolls Willpower (difficulty
      7). The weapon now does aggravated damage. It also
      gains a number of additional damage dice equal to the
      number of successes rolled plus the number of blood
      points spent.
      These extra dice fade at a rate of one per
      turn as the poison dissipates, drips off, and reacts with
      the weapon’s material. Once the extra damage dice
      are all gone, the weapon’s base damage dice begin to
      fade at the same rate. The weapon breaks if used when
      its base damage is reduced to the wielder’s Strength or
      less. The only weapons that can resist this corrosion
      are those created with a supernatural power of a level
      equal to or greater than the character’s Quietus rating,
      though even this is subject to the Storyteller’s discretion.
      Baal’s Bloody Talons is subject to the same limitations
      as Baal’s Caress, except the limit on the number
      of successful strikes that do aggravated damage. A
      weapon affected by Baal’s Bloody Talons does aggravated
      damage with every successful attack until it is
      destroyed.
      At the Storyteller’s discretion, the character may use
      the venom this power produces for other purposes, such
      as burning through a padlock or destroying an incriminating
      tape. He may not, however, store this poison for
      later use — even if a container proves resistant to it,
      the substance becomes inert within a few minutes of
      leaving its creator’s body.

      Which means Strenght + Potence + Weapon damage + willpower success + up to 6 points (sixth gen max blood usage) agg damage.
      So yeah, we are on the dozens here too.
      For your expenditure limit in blood. In contrast, CoB can be spammed thanks to its low cost and doesn't lose damage over time as you try to hit but don't. Which can also happen if someone destroys your weapon, which Kiai 7 does quite ably and at low cost.

      But again, even Quietus 5


      Taste of Death
      A refinement of Baal’s Caress, Taste of Death allows
      the Cainite to spit caustic blood at her target. The
      blood coughed forth with this power burns flesh and
      corrodes bone; some vampires have been reported to
      vomit voluminous streams of vitae that reduce their
      targets to heaps of sludge.
      System: The vampire may spit up to 10 feet (3 meters)
      for each dot of Strength and Potence he possesses.
      Hitting the target requires a Stamina + Athletics roll
      (difficulty 6). Each blood point spewed at the target
      inflicts two dice of aggravated damage, and there is no
      limit (other than the vampire’s capacity and per-turn
      expenditure maximum) to the quantity of blood with
      which a target may be deluged.


      So a sixth gen vampire would do 12 agg per shot, a 4th gen 20 agg per shot, and the difficulty is even lower than Cry of Blood.
      Cry of Blood does auto-hitting levels that don't need to be rolled, making it equal to twice its value in dice, at least. You're talking mere dice here, and people can dodge the attack. There's no indication that Cry of Blood can be dodged, since it didn't sell itself as an attack, but rather a thing that happens.

      Or Blood of Acid

      Blood of Acid
      At this level of mastery, the vampire has converted
      his blood to a viscous acid. Any blood he consumes
      likewise becomes acid, which is corrosive enough to
      burn human (and vampiric flesh) as well as wood. This
      effect is particularly potent when the vampire assumes
      the Bloodform. One of the side effects of this power
      is the complete inability to create new vampires and
      ghouls, or give blood to another vampire — the acid
      would corrode them as they drank it. The obvious benefit,
      however, is that would-be diablerists are likewise
      unable to devour the Cainite’s blood.
      System: Each acidified blood point that comes in
      contact with something other than the vampire himself
      does five dice worth of aggravated damage. If the
      vampire is injured in combat, his blood may spatter on
      an opponent — foes must make Dexterity + Athletics
      rolls to avoid the blood, which must be accomplished by
      splitting their dice pools. (Unless an opponent knows
      the vampire has this power, she’s unlikely to split her
      dice pool on her first attack, which causes many Tzimisce
      to cackle with glee.)

      This plus Blood form? Well, a seventh gen Tzimisce has up to 20 blood points. So getting into blood form and crawling upon your enemies would be...100 dice of Agg damage.
      Which is only equivalent to 50 levels. A bad roll could even make it equivalent to 0 levels.


      This is true for lower discipline powers either.

      Let's take some example

      Blood Thorns (Protean ••, Potence ••)
      This power allows the user to expend the force of her
      blood in order to make a ranged attack with her natural
      weaponry. With this ability, the Gangrel shoots a barb
      or claw at her target, potentially injuring them as though
      she had struck them with her Feral Claws. It takes three
      rounds for a claw expended in this manner to grow back.
      Claws or barbs expelled by use of Blood Thorns turn to
      dust within ten minutes of leaving the Gangrel’s body.
      System: The character spends a blood to perform a
      ranged attack against one character within 10 yards/
      meters. If successful, this attack inflicts Strength +1
      aggravated damage.

      A simple combo 2 power, but used by Enkidu? 16 agg damage with one strike, and he attacks with 26 dice.[/quote]

      I was referencing attacks where the damage didn't need to be rolled, again.

      •• Kiss of the Dark Mother
      Kiss of the Dark Mother allows the necromancer
      who uses it to mix her vitae with black bile, turning it
      into a noxious poison. The necromancer forces it into
      her mouth as saliva might once have come; the vitae
      tastes acrid and bitter, as though it had been scorched.
      Once the necromancer coats her teeth and lips with it,
      she can inflict terrible damage with her bite.
      System: The player spends one blood point; activating
      this power is a reflexive action, but it must be done
      before making a bite attack. If the bite hits, the aggravated
      damage inflicted by a single bite is doubled before
      soak is calculated
      . This power does not affect the
      character’s ability to drain blood from the target, nor
      does it increase the amount of damage done by blood
      loss. The necromancer’s bite remains potent until this
      ability is discharged by a successful hit or she spends
      one turn cleansing the dark blood from her mouth.


      Again, very powerful even if you are a young vampire. But if you are Japhet? That's going to be 34 agg with one bite ( Strenght pumped at 10, Potence 6, Bite 1, and I'm not taking in account the extra success of the attack roll (Japeth use 19 dice to attack, and has celerity 5, so you must multiply all of this damage per 6, so even taking in account just 1 success that would be...204 agg in a turn)
      Hungry Dead can actually just get a dagger of sublime hunger to do that.

      Same for the previous Blood of Acid. Blood of acid + Blood form performed by a 4th gen would be...250 agg dice per turn.
      Cry of Blood for Dharma 9 can reasonably push out 81 levels per use by a Dharma 9 vampire; a specialty and lucky roll can push that up to 324. Just one power, at range. Simple math tells us which one is really the most broken in terms of unreasonable amounts of damage per power use (one point of Yin does all that!).

      But this is true for every splat, even in mage the best spell an archmage can useagainst a single enemy is Holy Stroke (prime 2).
      You roll Arete 9 vs Target 3 and you can easily achieve a dozen healt level of agg damage with little effort.
      Or again, Thunder Gauntlet, Corr 3,Mind 3 Force 3. Casted by a Master or an Archmaster using extended casting can do dozens and dozens of healt levels of agg damage (can't be blocked, can't be soaked, can be done from home).
      We're talking about things in vampire that have no sense of scale. Mage is in its own game for that.
      It depends on the edition. Vampire 2nd edition let you soak Agg with Stamina + Fortitude. V20DA Fortitude let you soak up agg damage up to your value of fortitude once per turn. Protean 6 halves every physical damage before the soak , Protean 9 halves every (even mystical) damage after the soak (and can be used in conjunction with Protean 6), Serpentis 3 let you soak at difficult 5 and use both Stamina + Fortitude to soak Agg, Protean 5 makes you immune to physical damage, Shatterproof (Fort 2, Protean 4) let you soak agg with Stamina + Fortitude by expending one point of willpower.
      No quantity of Fortitude, however, can stand up to Cry of Blood, even with Shatterproof. Also, we've pretty much left 2nd edition in the archives by now, so mentioning it is kind of odd.

      Besides Dance of Shiva (which is a 8 level power, so we should take in consideration 8 level Disciplines), is no good in combat, is good against enviroment, but is pretty much useless in combat situation: it requires a full turn of dance (and you cant defend yourself while this happen), and its range is 5 feet (1.5 meters) per turn of dance, and any distraction stops the discipline,its target roll is the local gauntlet (good luck in a urban area!) even more the effect starts AFTER 1 turn of dance. So it would need just one attack in the first turn to end it all, or a gunshot in the subsequent turns (after 3 turns of dance the effect would reach just 4.5 meters of range from the caster)
      Yeah, the version that the same author wrote for Nagah is much more impressive in spite of doing less damage, on account of how a sufficient number of successes could envelop the entire surface of the earth (it doubles its range every turn rather than just adding five feet.)

      And yet we can only judge by what has been published.
      How fortunate for Kindred that they weren't rightly considered a hot potato and sidelined for V20.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

        The books that came out later drifted a rather far distance away from it. As is typically the case with WoD games, the first iteration is for public playtesting.
        What Books? page? Are we talking of Killing Street? The Trashing Dragon Dharma book? San Francisco by Night? Which one? Where?

        I provided book, page and quotation for my statement that Arhat are just as powerful as Methsuleah, I expect you to do the same.
        Otherwise we must assume, Corebook at hand, that Arhat are just as powerful as Methuselah.
        Last edited by Undead rabbit; 09-27-2018, 07:59 PM.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post


          Honestly, the general effects of altering weather mean that Storm Shintai 5 has that beaten. It can summon up mega-storms, and probably even easier in modern times. It's just one Discipline that people discount, too; if it got up to powers beyond five dots, it'd probably be a nightmare.

          Storm Shintai does not make damage, and lacks damage rules. On that regard both Jaws of Hakkon, Weather Control 5 and Way of the Wind 5 make a better job.


          For your expenditure limit in blood. In contrast, CoB can be spammed thanks to its low cost and doesn't lose damage over time as you try to hit but don't. Which can also happen if someone destroys your weapon, which Kiai 7 does quite ably and at low cost.



          Cry of Blood does auto-hitting levels that don't need to be rolled, making it equal to twice its value in dice, at least. You're talking mere dice here, and people can dodge the attack. There's no indication that Cry of Blood can be dodged, since it didn't sell itself as an attack, but rather a thing that happens.



          Which is only equivalent to 50 levels. A bad roll could even make it equivalent to 0 levels.






          I was referencing attacks where the damage didn't need to be rolled, again.



          Hungry Dead can actually just get a dagger of sublime hunger to do that.



          Cry of Blood for Dharma 9 can reasonably push out 81 levels per use by a Dharma 9 vampire; a specialty and lucky roll can push that up to 324. Just one power, at range. Simple math tells us which one is really the most broken in terms of unreasonable amounts of damage per power use (one point of Yin does all that!).




          No quantity of Fortitude, however, can stand up to Cry of Blood, even with Shatterproof. Also, we've pretty much left 2nd edition in the archives by now, so mentioning it is kind of odd.
          The point of my post is that Kiai doesn't stand out, since there is plenty of disciplines that kills in one turn, and there is plenty of disciplines that do not deal dice of agg damage but levels of agg damage (take Arhiman Demense for example).

          If you want me to argue that Kiai is weak that will not happen. I don't think that is much more impressive of Jaws of the Dragons or Arhiman Demense or any kindred discipline or combination of it that deals more than 10 agg per turn; everything above 10 agg is overkill, if I roll 30 dice of agg, 20, 100, 89 or whatever the results is the same: you die, no matter your soak roll. It's not that if you deal 300 agg damage you are more powerful than something that deals 50. What matters is how quick you can do it and how practical it is in combat.

          On this regard: you wrote

          Which is only equivalent to 50 levels. A bad roll could even make it equivalent to 0 levels.

          I would invite you to launch a simulation and see what's the chance of it.
          Onyxpath developed an App about it. Roll 100 dice per time at difficult 6 and tell me how many rolls deal less than 15 agg.

          Now I made this nice simulation with a online roller
          https://i.imgur.com/anOes2c.png

          20 Rolls with 99 dices.

          Results?

          Total success :34, 32, 51,42,41,60,37,47,50,46,22,34,50,54,36,41,35,41,46 ,38.

          Lowest: 22

          Highest: 60

          Average:40,85

          I would exclude that anything as a bad roll is possible when you roll 100 dice with target 6. Even taking in account the lowest results (22), there is no power of a Kue-jin (or a vampire) that let you soak 22 level of agg. So in this regard Acid blood + Blood Form used by a 4th gen Tzimisce or Kiai used by 9 Dharma Kuejin are pretty much the same story: the kill you in one turn no matter what; and as always the only thing that is important is who starts first.







          To the matter at hand: discipline that requires target 7 or 8 in combat are not that practical.
          Even if they deal less damage Kiss of the Dark mother,Blood Thorns and Blood of Acid require no roll except the attack one, which is done at difficult 6, which means they are more practical.
          f you take in account the helluva discipline of practicality, Celerity, it does surpass every other discipline ever invented.
          If someone use Flower of death (celerity level 7) you get automatic success and bonus initiative equal to your Celerity rating.
          And I will always put my money on the Assamite who has 7 auto-success in his attack and +7 in initiative against the Kue-Jin who has to roll a 7 or a 8 and will roll second.

          So does Kiai 6 deal much greater damage than Menele's Celerity 9? Hell sure!
          Does the Kue-Jin who lose his turn on Kiai 6 survive againts the 10 automatic success that Menele does with Celerity 9?
          Hell no!



          (That said until Kiai 8 uncorporeal things are immune to its effect, which would mean that anyone with Protean 5, Protean 7, or the ritual Incorporeal Passage would be immune to its effects).

          But again you are speaking of just one discipline, I can quote dozens from every clan. And I don't think that every Kue-Jin has Kiai, since it is quite rare (actually more than that,no Kue-Jin ever statted has Kiai).

          So are we going to say that the Kue-Jin are stronger because they have one power of one discipline in the companion book?
          I hope not.



          Otherwise I could just point out that Quietus 1 destroys Kiai, but we are talking of splat in general,aren't we?




          Yeah, the version that the same author wrote for Nagah is much more impressive in spite of doing less damage, on account of how a sufficient number of successes could envelop the entire surface of the earth (it doubles its range every turn rather than just adding five feet.)
          Maybe but we are talking Kue-Jin and not Fera. Nagah may have a much more impressive thing, Kue-Jin have what you can find in the Bone Flower Dharma book.


          How fortunate for Kindred that they weren't rightly considered a hot potato and sidelined for V20.
          Actually most disciplines of V20 where Disciplines of Masquerade Revised or Dark Ages Revised, so I don't really see the point.
          What would you suggest besides? To invent disciplines on the spot? If we are talking of splat against splat we can only use what material we have.
          Last edited by Undead rabbit; 09-27-2018, 09:56 PM.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post


            Storm Shintai does not make damage, and lacks damage rules. On that regard both Jaws of Hakkon, Weather Control 5 and Way of the Wind 5 make a better job.




            The point of my post is that Kiai doesn't stand out, since there is plenty of disciplines that kills in one turn, and there is plenty of disciplines that do not deal dice of agg damage but levels of agg damage (take Arhiman Demense for example).

            If you want me to argue that Kiai is weak that will not happen. I don't think that is much more impressive of Jaws of the Dragons or Arhiman Demense or any kindred discipline or combination of it that deals more than 10 agg per turn; everything above 10 agg is overkill, if I roll 30 dice of agg, 20, 100, 89 or whatever the results is the same: you die, no matter your soak roll. It's not that if you deal 300 agg damage you are more powerful than something that deals 50. What matters is how quick you can do it and how practical it is in combat.

            On this regard: you wrote




            I would invite you to launch a simulation and see what's the chance of it.
            Onyxpath developed an App about it. Roll 100 dice per time at difficult 6 and tell me how many rolls deal less than 15 agg.

            Now I made this nice simulation with a online roller
            https://i.imgur.com/anOes2c.png

            20 Rolls with 99 dices.

            Results?

            Total success :34, 32, 51,42,41,60,37,47,50,46,22,34,50,54,36,41,35,41,46 ,38.

            Lowest: 22

            Highest: 60

            Average:40,85

            I would exclude that anything as a bad roll is possible when you roll 100 dice with target 6. Even taking in account the lowest results (22), there is no power of a Kue-jin (or a vampire) that let you soak 22 level of agg. So in this regard Acid blood + Blood Form used by a 4th gen Tzimisce or Kiai used by 9 Dharma Kuejin are pretty much the same story: the kill you in one turn no matter what; and as always the only thing that is important is who starts first.







            To the matter at hand: discipline that requires target 7 or 8 in combat are not that practical.
            Even if they deal less damage Kiss of the Dark mother,Blood Thorns and Blood of Acid require no roll except the attack one, which is done at difficult 6, which means they are more practical.
            f you take in account the helluva discipline of practicality, Celerity, it does surpass every other discipline ever invented.
            If someone use Flower of death (celerity level 7) you get automatic success and bonus initiative equal to your Celerity rating.
            And I will always put my money on the Assamite who has 7 auto-success in his attack and +7 in initiative against the Kue-Jin who has to roll a 7 or a 8 and will roll second.

            So does Kiai 6 deal much greater damage than Menele's Celerity 9? Hell sure!
            Does the Kue-Jin who lose his turn on Kiai 6 survive againts the 10 automatic success that Menele does with Celerity 9?
            Hell no!



            (That said until Kiai 8 uncorporeal things are immune to its effect, which would mean that anyone with Protean 5, Protean 7, or the ritual Incorporeal Passage would be immune to its effects).

            But again you are speaking of just one discipline, I can quote dozens from every clan. And I don't think that every Kue-Jin has Kiai, since it is quite rare (actually more than that,no Kue-Jin ever statted has Kiai).

            So are we going to say that the Kue-Jin are stronger because they have one power of one discipline in the companion book?
            I hope not.



            Otherwise I could just point out that Quietus 1 destroys Kiai, but we are talking of splat in general,aren't we?






            Maybe but we are talking Kue-Jin and not Fera. Nagah may have a much more impressive thing, Kue-Jin have what you can find in the Bone Flower Dharma book.




            Actually most disciplines of V20 where Disciplines of Masquerade Revised or Dark Ages Revised, so I don't really see the point.
            What would you suggest besides? To invent disciplines on the spot? If we are talking of splat against splat we can only use what material we have.
            You say what I want to say , I always suspect there is no Single Kuei can be equal to An Antes . Because the material we have show that on Whole Race perspective, Kuei is weaker than Cainites , they lack the Badass guys like Antes , which may be the most powerful guys in CWoD .Although they may be more powerful in lower ranks (Like , Elders ), but if they face Truly powerful guys like a Meth like Ur-Shulgi or Antes , they are lesser .

            But to tell the truth, this is also why I dislike CWoD a little , Cainites are over-powerful , especially Antes , Other Races have few characters can be equal to EVEN ONE OF THEM !
            Last edited by Rock113; 09-28-2018, 12:33 AM.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Rock113 View Post

              You say what I want to say , I always suspect there is no Single Kuei can be equal to An Antes . Because the material we have show that on Whole Race perspective, Kuei is weaker than Cainites , they lack the Badass guys like Antes , which may be the most powerful guys in CWoD .Although they may be more powerful in lower ranks (Like , Elders ), but if they face Truly powerful guys like a Meth like Ur-Shulgi or Antes , they are lesser .

              But to tell the truth, this is also why I dislike CWoD a little , Cainites are over-powerful , especially Antes , Other Races have few characters can be equal to EVEN ONE OF THEM !
              One guy has to be on top.

              Werewolves are better than any Kindred at fighting until the NPC levels.

              Mages can create whole universes.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                One guy has to be on top.

                Werewolves are better than any Kindred at fighting until the NPC levels.

                Mages can create whole universes.
                Tecnically Microverses a la Rick and Morty battery car.All they can do is wrap the cosmos to create a inferior universe that is a mere shadow of the original inhabited by lower dimensional beings

                With is still an insane feat considering that Masters Of the Art even hints that the entire world of darkness may even be the work of an Archmage.

                Heck maybe Ascension is just a constant race to rise in the dimensional tier until you reach the original dimension to spit in the face of God as a higher dimensional being.

                Comment


                • #68
                  I personally love KotE, when the book first came out I thought that damn this is the way WoD should have been done in the first place. Supernaturals were on diplomatic terms instead of being genocidal towards one another, all supernaturals acknowledge and have method to access the spirit worlds Etc.

                  Just loved it.

                  I also liked their similaritites to Wraiths, and Risen, since Wraith has always been my favourite line in WoD.

                  But there were faults in KotE as well. Most of which are easy to mend. My suggestion and solution to the major issues people have been complaining about can be found here:
                  http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...187#post193187
                  Last edited by Possessed; 09-30-2018, 09:58 AM. Reason: Typo fix

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Possessed View Post
                    I personally love KotE, when the book first came out I thought that damn this is the way WoD should have been done in the first place. Supernaturals were on diplomatic terms instead of being genocidal towards one another, all supernaturals acknowledge and have method to access the spirit worlds Etc.

                    Just loved it.

                    I also liked their similaritites to Wraiths, and Risen, since Wraith has always been my favourite line in WoD.

                    But there were faults in KotE as well. Most of which are easy to mend. My suggestion and solution to the major issues people have been complaining about can be found here:
                    http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...187#post193187
                    The Kuei-jin are completely undiplomatic and genocidal to Cainites.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                      The Kuei-jin are completely undiplomatic and genocidal to Cainites.
                      Well according to the metaplot of the time their main historical contact with Cainites has been outright war in India and one of the Antediluvians stealing from them. But that is kinda beside the point, when playing VtM your set in the west and there is no reason to involve the Kuei-Jin and when playing KotE your set in the east and have no reason to involve Cainites and in both cases should you wish to involve them in the same place in your game you can and as the ST you can decide how things are. I think we all can agree that the so called Great Leap Outwards was a bad idea from WW at the time.

                      And if you read my proposal for fixing KotE you will notice this among the fixed issues, except for the war in India which remains there mostly due to my fix trying to keep major metaplot plot points in place so that KotE20 would not conflict too much with what has been already established in V20.

                      Still the eastern setting as it’s own independent thing is much more crossover friendly, including the diplomatic relations with other eastern supernaturals, than the western setting ever was.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Possessed View Post

                        Well according to the metaplot of the time their main historical contact with Cainites has been outright war in India and one of the Antediluvians stealing from them. But that is kinda beside the point, when playing VtM your set in the west and there is no reason to involve the Kuei-Jin and when playing KotE your set in the east and have no reason to involve Cainites and in both cases should you wish to involve them in the same place in your game you can and as the ST you can decide how things are. I think we all can agree that the so called Great Leap Outwards was a bad idea from WW at the time.

                        And if you read my proposal for fixing KotE you will notice this among the fixed issues, except for the war in India which remains there mostly due to my fix trying to keep major metaplot plot points in place so that KotE20 would not conflict too much with what has been already established in V20.

                        Still the eastern setting as it’s own independent thing is much more crossover friendly, including the diplomatic relations with other eastern supernaturals, than the western setting ever was.
                        That attitude implies that the two would never cross over or want to expand into other territories.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Possessed View Post

                          Well according to the metaplot of the time their main historical contact with Cainites has been outright war in India and one of the Antediluvians stealing from them. But that is kinda beside the point, when playing VtM your set in the west and there is no reason to involve the Kuei-Jin and when playing KotE your set in the east and have no reason to involve Cainites and in both cases should you wish to involve them in the same place in your game you can and as the ST you can decide how things are. I think we all can agree that the so called Great Leap Outwards was a bad idea from WW at the time.

                          And if you read my proposal for fixing KotE you will notice this among the fixed issues, except for the war in India which remains there mostly due to my fix trying to keep major metaplot plot points in place so that KotE20 would not conflict too much with what has been already established in V20.

                          Still the eastern setting as it’s own independent thing is much more crossover friendly, including the diplomatic relations with other eastern supernaturals, than the western setting ever was.
                          There's also a developing contingent of younger Kuei-jin who are challenging the idea of completely stonewalling/attacking Kindred in their territory.


                          “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by TyrannicalRabbit View Post

                            There's also a developing contingent of younger Kuei-jin who are challenging the idea of completely stonewalling/attacking Kindred in their territory.
                            I admit, I actually liked the Great Leap Outward for two things.

                            1. Justifying Bloodlines with the Free States getting destroyed.

                            2. The fact it gives a reason for Kuei-jin to show up and try to kill your characters.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                              I admit, I actually liked the Great Leap Outward for two things.

                              1. Justifying Bloodlines with the Free States getting destroyed.

                              2. The fact it gives a reason for Kuei-jin to show up and try to kill your characters.
                              Okay. Cool I guess.

                              Edit: Not saying that to be mean, just not an angle of that event I've been largely interested in.
                              Last edited by TyrannicalRabbit; 09-30-2018, 07:37 PM.


                              “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                The Kuei-jin are completely undiplomatic and genocidal to Cainites.

                                Um.....not so much. Theres a relatively cold war in Hong Kong. Things are sensitive but peaceful in Japan. Taiwan is cordial relations. Most of South East Asia is relatively peaceful....though with the most common Dharmas there being heretical or Thrashing Dragons things will always be 'fluid'.

                                The only Cainites that will probably be attacked on sight are Tremere because of the nasty effect that Thaumaturgy has on Dragon Lines and Nests.

                                The Great Leap Outward is pretty much solely composed of old school Mainland Chinese Wan Kuei....the majority of other Asian and beyond territories don't really care.
                                Last edited by Damian May; 09-30-2018, 07:36 PM.

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