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  • V1 Games With V5 Rules?

    I've been very skeptical of V5 since the very beginning, all the way back to when it was first announced. And for the longest time, I have been vehemently opposed to it, especially after release. However, I haven't actually read V5 yet and I realize it is unfair to criticize a book I have not read. Maybe I can give V5 a proper chance, and since I am getting paid very soon, I may consider buying a copy of V5.

    That being said, I want to run V5 in the classic V1 style. No metaplot and we're turning the clock back from 2018 to 1991, so to speak. Whether that means the game would be an actual 1990's period piece, or set in the 2010's sans metaplot is something I have yet to properly decide.

    The Gangrel are still in the Camarilla, while the Week of Nightmares never happened (and will never happen), there was no Beckoning, no Second Inquisition (at least not yet), and the Ravnos are a full clan. Essentially, Revised and BJD never happened in this type of chronicle. Y'all know how I roll when it comes to that stuff.

    I want to run V5 with Rule Zero invoked in terms of the setting fluff but I figured I can give the mechanics a second chance.

    From what I understand, V5 intends to pay homage to V1 by going back to a more street-level style of chronicle, which I actually kind of like. But I also heard the mechanics have been drastically altered, and I wonder if the mechanics are still serviceable for a game more suited to my tastes of action-horror and heavy political intrigue.

    I know the mechanics are supposed to be more personal horror-oriented, but can other play styles be run in V5?

    Particularly my idea for a game that is essentially "Black Lagoon with Fangs", heavy on the action and especially political backstabbery, but light on the supernatural wangsting.

    Note that I am fine with personal horror in small doses or in combination with action and politics, but I don't like it being the sole focus of a chronicle.

    Or should I just stick to V20 or even dust off my old softcover of the V1 corebook and just actually play V1?

    I'm particularly interested in the opinion of what CTPhipps is on this matter, since I respect them as a fellow forum user and we have some common interest in V1 and the old Chicago by Night setting, but unlike me, they have been very enthusiastic about V5 and seem to be a huge fan of it.

    I want to give V5 a second chance, but I need to know if it is worth the investment.

    I'm not interested in the metaplot, but I am potentially interested in the mechanics. Can you run a classic V1 or V2 game with V5 mechanics, and if so, how hard would it be. Would any adjustments be needed for the mechanics? What do I need to keep in mind with the new rules?

    V5 fans, help me out here.
    Last edited by Camilla; 09-26-2018, 11:17 AM.

  • #2
    V5 is a game with good ideas poorly executed from the metaplot to the rules.

    That said out there people who like this new edition exist , I respect them and I hope they get tons of funs with this new edition.

    Originally posted by Camilla View Post
    I know the mechanics are supposed to be more personal horror-oriented, but can other play styles be run in V5?
    You can play V5 however you want but you have the problem with the system.The mechanical system is optimized and designed to FORCE personal horror instead of enforcing it.That means that if you stop at street level action Political Horror Games are still playable but there the system becomes your enemy and who tries to cut a steak with a spoon?.

    Originally posted by Camilla View Post
    Particularly my idea for a game that is essentially "Black Lagoon with Fangs", heavy on the action and especially political backstabbery, but light on the supernatural wangsting.
    We play similar game styles and also in Chicago so I will be clear:

    You will be doing extra rolls all the time in other words you will be wasting your time and your players by not roleplaying.The hunger dice are a BloodPool with INTRUSIVE Dice rolls and that´s BAD game design.Rolls exist to A) move the narrative forward , and B) To resolve a conflict taking in account the difference of capabilities between two characters.

    The Hunger Dice are against narrative becuase you are gonna be hungry all the fucking time and you know why? Becuase pure statistics , each time you rouse the blood wich means using your vampire mojo you need to make a rolls this in combat means that every character must make a 1 extra roll maybe two becuase you can reroll if you have certain Blood Potency levels wich also goes against the theme of hunger becuase here the elders are less hungry.

    It´s also bad design becuase it is fully randomized , with bloodpools you have a constant and stable progresion towards frenzy becuase there everything you do adds to your hunger and if you want it to be a little more impredictable adding randomizing elements is easy and doesnt requires for you to roll.Meanwhile with Hunger Dice you could Hunger frenzy in a few turns or not get any hunger dice and basically say you have reached golconda becuase RNGJesus is on your side.

    Having hunger also messes with the narrative in the sense that you can have messy crits with would be a great idea if you had them at storyteller criteria when you fall a roll but as written the beast will get in the way of the story.

    Originally posted by Camilla View Post
    Or should I just stick to V20 or even dust off my old softcover of the V1 corebook and just actually play V1?
    ALL vampire editions included V20 and V1 are terrible unbalanced and ultragresive but with the excepction of V5 the rules were designed to allow you play however you wanted.

    Originally posted by Camilla View Post
    Would any adjustments be needed for the mechanics?
    Whatever Vampire edition you play houseruling is a great idea.My recomendation is to incorporate the mechanics from others editions that will help you to tell the story you want to tell.The most important thing for a ST is to tell a Story the mechanics MUST adapt to it.For example I don´t like V5 but I like the concept of convictions so i added them to my games , along compulsions and bane severity.I even houseruled a Hunger Pool system.
    http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...of-hunger-dice
    Last edited by Leandro16; 09-26-2018, 04:14 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm actually essentially doing exactly this right now with a group. Sadly it is slow going as the group I wanted for this are all very busy these days so we have only really progressed through character creation so far. Essentially, I'm running the Chicago Chronicles starting at Baptism by Fire in 1990/1991 (well, just before making use of something on the Storytellers Vault) and working forward but using the V5 rules for the whole thing. Thus far I'm finding it to be ok as I work through the process of converting NPCs and that jazz over. My take on the mechanics make me inclined to think this will work, otherwise I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing, but I don't have the practical experience in place just yet to back that up with anything more than conjecture. Our first session should be this Saturday though, so that will give me my first bit of true insight on the situation.

      A couple of things that I have taken liberty with so far are as follows though:

      Chronicle Tenants: I treat these much less as the "ST deciding the game they want to run" and more a "Social pressure based on location" type of thing. In this respect, I have setup Tenants for the Chicago area under the precept that this is a Camarilla city. For simplicity sake and for easing my players into the concept I started with the suggested "Humanist" selection (even though, in my humble opinion, that one is the least effective in describing a Kindred social outlook - but I digress). These can also shift over time to reflect the changing sentiments of the society which it reflects.

      Touchstones: I don't actually require these to be people, but rather "mortal in nature, providing a reflection of humanity" and so can be a person, place, or thing that represents your personal Conviction. The primary crux of the idea is that these things can not be Kindred or supernatural in nature as that defeats the idea of "Humanity" where all Kindred start their journey, and that they are something that risks "Damage" and "Destruction" as that is also a crux part of the whole concept. I find my players are able to adopt the idea a bit better this way, and it allows for very interesting concepts to come into play like "my wedding band from my life as a mortal, which is the Touchstone for my Conviction to always keep my word" is something I enjoy and something that still feels very "human in nature" to me, which was the whole idea anyways. There is potential to get supernatural related Touchstones via some Paths which are represented by Loresheets in my game as inspired by the Bahari writeup in the book, but that is a whole other bucket of worms to get into.

      Bestial Failures/Messy Criticals: For this it is less a rule change as it is a constant reminder that these do not mean having to feed, kill, etc. Just that the Beast somehow expresses itself in the situation in a way that is noticeable. This is already the point of these, and the book even takes time to discuss a lot of options outside of attacking and feeding. They also don't have to push the situation to something that it isn't already - as exhibited by each of the Compulsions providing examples for Combat/Social/Isolated situations for each. It also doesn't have to mean that something super terrible happens as a recourse (the L.A. by Night streams showed this where Jason Carl has expressly pointed out "...thankfully no one was around to see it happen." That is a big thing to keep in mind, that these things are supposed to be little more than RP queues to help keep people focused on the fact that there is a Beast within you. The main thing is to just be sure you don't let them take control of the game, because they really don't have to.

      That is all the stuff I've encountered so far anyways. I might have more things to say once I get a couple sessions into the meat of it all.


      -Red
      V20 Content: Age & Potency
      V5 Content: The Masquerade, Tzimisce and Vicissitude, Loresheet: Chicago, Resonance Flavor
      Community & Project Manager, Developer at Hunters Entertainment

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Red Eye View Post
        Touchstones: I don't actually require these to be people, but rather "mortal in nature, providing a reflection of humanity" and so can be a person, place, or thing that represents your personal Conviction. The primary crux of the idea is that these things can not be Kindred or supernatural in nature as that defeats the idea of "Humanity" where all Kindred start their journey, and that they are something that risks "Damage" and "Destruction" as that is also a crux part of the whole concept. I find my players are able to adopt the idea a bit better this way, and it allows for very interesting concepts to come into play like "my wedding band from my life as a mortal, which is the Touchstone for my Conviction to always keep my word" is something I enjoy and something that still feels very "human in nature" to me, which was the whole idea anyways. There is potential to get supernatural related Touchstones via some Paths which are represented by Loresheets in my game as inspired by the Bahari writeup in the book, but that is a whole other bucket of worms to get into.
        I like this idea as well, and plan on implementing a similar idea when I advance my Tucson game to V5 later on. The wedding band idea is a good one, I also see a vampire that has a dog they look after as a symbol of loyalty. Perhaps it is the pet that they gave their children, but ended up caring for and loving themselves. I can also see religiously focused vampires maintaining a touch stone of their church, attending night masses to help keep their connection to their human nature. I felt it helps eliminate the creepy stalker vibe that can come with only human touchstones, especially ones that may not even know you are looking after them.

        Comment


        • #5
          Its physically not possible for me to disagree and reject Leandro16’s opinion, not just as an opinion but as a matter of experiance now that I have played the game and have a point of reference beyond simply reading the rulebook.

          First and foremost is the ”its about personal horror” fallacy. I can understand from where this is born, by the reading of the rules and making a few assumptions about how often elements like Bestial Failure and Messy criticals come up, the use of touchstones and the focus on internal monologue one might come to that conclusion, but in practice its simply not true at all. The game does not focus on personal horror anymore or less than the old system does, that entire commentary is just simply factually incorrect. It focus on being a game about Vampires. Its the EXACT same narrative storyteller system about vampiric politics it has always been, the only difference is that the game reminds you that you are in fact, a Vampire. That’s it, from a ”playstyle” perspective, its 100% the same theme, style and concept VTM has always been.

          The dice system is intrusive. Another boring, overstated fallacy. The only thing the Hunger System has done is lower the book keeping of playing the game, streamlined concepts like willpower and gave purpose to the political game beyond ”applying disciplines to solve problems” as VTM has always done in the past. Its instead, an actual role-playing experiance in which the narrative sits center stage and the mechanics remind you that you are a Vampire not a mortal. The Hunger Die mechanic allows you to include the concept of blood, hunger, feeding and internal struggle without any extra mechanics or GM intervention. It lets you know when being a vampire is important but still functions as a GM fiat, which essentially means that a messy critical narratively is whatever is appropriate and cool for the scene. More important they rarely come up. However when they do and I can’t stress this enough, the events as a result are the most memorable, most fun and most talked about events from the session. Its an amazing mechanic, right up their with D&D’s advantage/disadvantage system.

          V20 is a great system if you have system mastery as a GM. You really need to know every nook and cranny of the game and very carefully manage the players character and carefully houserule the game in many areas to ensure it doesn’t become a power gaming shit show. Its an unfortunate aspect of old Vampire, but its a managable if your careful. If you aren’t going to use V5, my recommendation would be to use Requiem with the converstion book. V20 is unbalanced mess and all VTM players know this, its common knowledge.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Camilla View Post
            I've been very skeptical of V5 since the very beginning, all the way back to when it was first announced. And for the longest time, I have been vehemently opposed to it, especially after release. However, I haven't actually read V5 yet and I realize it is unfair to criticize a book I have not read. Maybe I can give V5 a proper chance, and since I am getting paid very soon, I may consider buying a copy of V5.

            That being said, I want to run V5 in the classic V1 style. No metaplot and we're turning the clock back from 2018 to 1991, so to speak. Whether that means the game would be an actual 1990's period piece, or set in the 2010's sans metaplot is something I have yet to properly decide.

            The Gangrel are still in the Camarilla, while the Week of Nightmares never happened (and will never happen), there was no Beckoning, no Second Inquisition (at least not yet), and the Ravnos are a full clan. Essentially, Revised and BJD never happened in this type of chronicle. Y'all know how I roll when it comes to that stuff.

            I want to run V5 with Rule Zero invoked in terms of the setting fluff but I figured I can give the mechanics a second chance.

            From what I understand, V5 intends to pay homage to V1 by going back to a more street-level style of chronicle, which I actually kind of like. But I also heard the mechanics have been drastically altered, and I wonder if the mechanics are still serviceable for a game more suited to my tastes of action-horror and heavy political intrigue.

            I know the mechanics are supposed to be more personal horror-oriented, but can other play styles be run in V5?

            Particularly my idea for a game that is essentially "Black Lagoon with Fangs", heavy on the action and especially political backstabbery, but light on the supernatural wangsting.

            Note that I am fine with personal horror in small doses or in combination with action and politics, but I don't like it being the sole focus of a chronicle.

            Or should I just stick to V20 or even dust off my old softcover of the V1 corebook and just actually play V1?

            I'm particularly interested in the opinion of what CTPhipps is on this matter, since I respect them as a fellow forum user and we have some common interest in V1 and the old Chicago by Night setting, but unlike me, they have been very enthusiastic about V5 and seem to be a huge fan of it.

            I want to give V5 a second chance, but I need to know if it is worth the investment.

            I'm not interested in the metaplot, but I am potentially interested in the mechanics. Can you run a classic V1 or V2 game with V5 mechanics, and if so, how hard would it be. Would any adjustments be needed for the mechanics? What do I need to keep in mind with the new rules?

            V5 fans, help me out here.
            First off thank you for giving V5 a try. Much respect. I am a huge fan of V5 but it may not be everyones cup of tea.

            As far as doing an action/horror you may at first find the combat system to be lacking since it focuses in on the narrative more and has less maneuvers than some would like for a detailed system. much of it leaves adjudications up to the ST, not always a bad thing, which in my group ends up making the combats feel more cinematic but this could be my judgement calls as well.

            I do think that touchstones add to a political/intrigue style game though since the players have tangible aspects of their characters that they need to keep secretive from other vampires that will try to exploit them to try and control you. It basically adds blackmail material into the game and forces every PC to have them if they wish to have the benefits of touchstones. This ties into the next subject.

            Willpwer can be damaged and healed more than before, Social SPCs can wound a PC or vice versa which increases the social game which I feel plays into the political game. Embarrass the wrong person at the wrong time, causing them Willpower damage, can make you an enemy for un-life so be careful what you say and to whom. This is one aspect of the game that I have not seen used much in the twitch streams I have watched and I think it would be nice to see it come into the game. You can heal your will by working towards your desires and ambitions or helping your touchstone, but be careful as someone might find out who your touchstones are. its just a part of the game now. in either case I allow those that heal aggravated damage to apply that to superficial wounds as well but the opposite is not allowed.

            As far as personal horror goes I would suggest making use of the full system in regards to freeform to dice-detail mechanics. Set the scenes mode based on you goals for the scene and be willing to flow between the modes as needed to get the right mood for your scene. If you only play dice-detailed or are not willing to bypass a messy crit that is not appropriate as the rules suggest you do the personal horror will be a bit more predominate than you may like. even then though they don't come up as often as you would think.

            Hope these help and hope you have fun.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by xguild View Post
              Its physically not possible for me to disagree and reject Leandro16’s opinion, not just as an opinion but as a matter of experiance now that I have played the game and have a point of reference beyond simply reading the rulebook.

              First and foremost is the ”its about personal horror” fallacy. I can understand from where this is born, by the reading of the rules and making a few assumptions about how often elements like Bestial Failure and Messy criticals come up, the use of touchstones and the focus on internal monologue one might come to that conclusion, but in practice its simply not true at all. The game does not focus on personal horror anymore or less than the old system does, that entire commentary is just simply factually incorrect. It focus on being a game about Vampires. Its the EXACT same narrative storyteller system about vampiric politics it has always been, the only difference is that the game reminds you that you are in fact, a Vampire. That’s it, from a ”playstyle” perspective, its 100% the same theme, style and concept VTM has always been.

              The dice system is intrusive. Another boring, overstated fallacy. The only thing the Hunger System has done is lower the book keeping of playing the game, streamlined concepts like willpower and gave purpose to the political game beyond ”applying disciplines to solve problems” as VTM has always done in the past. Its instead, an actual role-playing experiance in which the narrative sits center stage and the mechanics remind you that you are a Vampire not a mortal. The Hunger Die mechanic allows you to include the concept of blood, hunger, feeding and internal struggle without any extra mechanics or GM intervention. It lets you know when being a vampire is important but still functions as a GM fiat, which essentially means that a messy critical narratively is whatever is appropriate and cool for the scene. More important they rarely come up. However when they do and I can’t stress this enough, the events as a result are the most memorable, most fun and most talked about events from the session. Its an amazing mechanic, right up their with D&D’s advantage/disadvantage system.

              V20 is a great system if you have system mastery as a GM. You really need to know every nook and cranny of the game and very carefully manage the players character and carefully houserule the game in many areas to ensure it doesn’t become a power gaming shit show. Its an unfortunate aspect of old Vampire, but its a managable if your careful. If you aren’t going to use V5, my recommendation would be to use Requiem with the converstion book. V20 is unbalanced mess and all VTM players know this, its common knowledge.
              Please pull back from using additional descriptions and adjectives that “put down” opinions and previous editions. They come across as attacks on other posters rather than your opinion about other peoples’ opinions. Thanks.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by xguild View Post

                V20 is a great system if you have system mastery as a GM. You really need to know every nook and cranny of the game and very carefully manage the players character and carefully houserule the game in many areas to ensure it doesn’t become a power gaming shit show. Its an unfortunate aspect of old Vampire, but its a managable if your careful. If you aren’t going to use V5, my recommendation would be to use Requiem with the converstion book. V20 is unbalanced mess and all VTM players know this, its common knowledge.
                Although I don´t agree with the rest of your comment is true that not only V20 but all editions have a problem of balance (But they don´t force a playstyle) that´s why we have all those houserulings including mine.

                Masquiem is great if you want a quick good ruleset, wonderful if you are the player.Another thing for people interested in using Requiem rules I want to remark that the disciplines wich are the most unbalanced thing in masquerade are not only perfectly balanced in Requiem 2ED but also very versatil and anyone can see them becuase public devololopment so for anyone who wants to use them , here are some links.

                http://theonyxpath.com/my-slow-descent-into-animalism/
                http://theonyxpath.com/majestic/
                http://theonyxpath.com/this-too-solid-flesh/
                http://theonyxpath.com/the-sum-of-all-fears/
                http://theonyxpath.com/the-shadow-and-the-asp/
                Last edited by Leandro16; 09-26-2018, 04:44 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have found a lot of fun using translated Requiem rules, just to chime in the only part I can contribute. Haven't seen a compelling reason to go from that to V5.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Camilla View Post
                    I've been very skeptical of V5 since the very beginning, all the way back to when it was first announced. And for the longest time, I have been vehemently opposed to it, especially after release. However, I haven't actually read V5 yet and I realize it is unfair to criticize a book I have not read. Maybe I can give V5 a proper chance, and since I am getting paid very soon, I may consider buying a copy of V5.

                    That being said, I want to run V5 in the classic V1 style. No metaplot and we're turning the clock back from 2018 to 1991, so to speak. Whether that means the game would be an actual 1990's period piece, or set in the 2010's sans metaplot is something I have yet to properly decide.

                    The Gangrel are still in the Camarilla, while the Week of Nightmares never happened (and will never happen), there was no Beckoning, no Second Inquisition (at least not yet), and the Ravnos are a full clan. Essentially, Revised and BJD never happened in this type of chronicle. Y'all know how I roll when it comes to that stuff.

                    I want to run V5 with Rule Zero invoked in terms of the setting fluff but I figured I can give the mechanics a second chance.

                    From what I understand, V5 intends to pay homage to V1 by going back to a more street-level style of chronicle, which I actually kind of like. But I also heard the mechanics have been drastically altered, and I wonder if the mechanics are still serviceable for a game more suited to my tastes of action-horror and heavy political intrigue.

                    I know the mechanics are supposed to be more personal horror-oriented, but can other play styles be run in V5?

                    Particularly my idea for a game that is essentially "Black Lagoon with Fangs", heavy on the action and especially political backstabbery, but light on the supernatural wangsting.

                    Note that I am fine with personal horror in small doses or in combination with action and politics, but I don't like it being the sole focus of a chronicle.

                    Or should I just stick to V20 or even dust off my old softcover of the V1 corebook and just actually play V1?

                    I'm particularly interested in the opinion of what CTPhipps is on this matter, since I respect them as a fellow forum user and we have some common interest in V1 and the old Chicago by Night setting, but unlike me, they have been very enthusiastic about V5 and seem to be a huge fan of it.

                    I want to give V5 a second chance, but I need to know if it is worth the investment.

                    I'm not interested in the metaplot, but I am potentially interested in the mechanics. Can you run a classic V1 or V2 game with V5 mechanics, and if so, how hard would it be. Would any adjustments be needed for the mechanics? What do I need to keep in mind with the new rules?

                    V5 fans, help me out here.
                    I strongly suggest you try and search the internet for a PDF of Rusted Veins because I think a big part of the problem in the main book is the fact Rusted Veins wasn't included within the chronicle and you don't actually get a sense of HOW the game is supposed to be run unless you either read it or listen to the Gentleman Gamer's 7 video series on how the universe has changed.

                    Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgP8QN-kHS0
                    Part 2: https://youtu.be/G4_HOn8mmNM
                    Part 3: https://youtu.be/xql-QOdKMT8
                    Part 4: https://youtu.be/YmCiqv-T9M0
                    Part 5: https://youtu.be/8wtIMlxcomM
                    Part 6: https://youtu.be/_p0jC-RMel4
                    Part 7: https://youtu.be/6KmaK_IbjcQ

                    Honestly, you shouldn't have to have 7 vlogs to understand things or an adventure model but I think the problem isn't that new gamers can't understand V5. It's that OLD GAMERS have difficulty understanding what is different versus what is the same. A lot of gamers think all elders are dead/beckoned, that no vampire can actually meet with other vampires, and other crazy stuff they get from exaggerating the idea.

                    Rusted Veins and the videos above depict a "back to basics" sort of universe that the metaplot is trying to encourage you to of:

                    1. Anarchs vs. Camarilla
                    2. Older vampires vs. new ones
                    3. Trying to keep ties with your human life or humans you care about
                    4. trying to avoid people spotting you as a vampire

                    What Rusted Veins tells us about 5E

                    If you can't track down Rusted Veins, the premise is actually really simple. Your player characters are a coterie of vampires who live in Gary and have been embraced there. An old contact of them is involved in organized crime (of the shitty low paying kind) and tells them about a hugely profitable drug deal that's about to take place. Either because they're nervous, they're snitching, or they want to share the good news.

                    Well, this being Gary, the whole deal goes South and the cops of Gary steal the drugs and the money because they want to make a shit ton of money for themselves--because it's the World of Darkness. It's only the players who discover how much of a shistorm this has caused because the drugs belonged to Modius who has been reduced to drug dealing to maintain his *airquotes* "lavish" lifestyle. The book even nicely states Modius is shit at this and giving way too a good a selection of drugs for the price he's asking.

                    Modius wants to kill every mortal involved in this clusterfuck, including the PC's friend and the cops (which will draw heavy heat because killing a bunch of cops even in Gary is the kind of thing that gets noticed by the Second Inquisition).

                    Juggler and Sullivan Dane are side characters with the former wanting the money and drugs himself (which he can sell at a much-much better price than Modius) while being willing to split it with the PCs--he's just mostly interested in sticking it to the Prince now.

                    Sullivan Dane is an old man now but still spry enough to want to save a bunch of humans from an insane old elder. The book states Sullivan is fully prepared to substitute himself to be killed by Modius for the PC's friend, reminding us that while many are hypocrites in the WOD--SD walks the walk. Also, it will kill Modius since his blood is like holy acid to Kindred.

                    Then the Primogen of Chicago arrive because this has turned into an epic clusterfuck. This allows the PCs to make a good first impression.

                    It's a VERY first edition and frankly awesome module that should have been included with the main book like Baptism by Fire.

                    Things to remember when using V5

                    When I use the "new" rules for 1st Edition style games, I told all of my players to basically forget the specifics and focus on the themes--which are not that difficult to remember or implement.

                    Here's steps 1-10 for that.

                    1. Have your players tell you, in detail, how your characters feed. Incentivize it with the fact they will get a bonus to skills and maybe an attribute or even discipline depending on how interesting it is. We're all adults here and a few extra points here and there is not a gamebreaker. Do you mug people, seduce them, presence them, or run an elaborate scam about New Age blood treatments?

                    2. Tell your player characters that if they kill someone with the Kiss, they don't have to roll for Hunger frenzies for the rest of the night. It's a small detail but it's something that highlights the terrible temptation to finish off your enemies via feeding.

                    3. Tell the player characters to mark something on their sheet that your character actually believes in. Like, "overthrow the Prince", "protect blacks from my neighborhood against corrupt cops and white developers", or "make sure my mom is cared for despite the fact I'm dead and she's demented."
                    Tell them this will help their humanity or degeneration depending on it.

                    4. Ask the players to have one mortal who means something to them. It doesn't have to be a GOOD relationship and I encourage it to be fucked up in some way. I use Heather Poe as an example. Your hot ghoul girlfriend who you have wanted to protect and love but you've kind of, well, made her your sex slave.

                    Other examples being:

                    * The aforementioned demented mother who is your last tie to your old life and WILL die soon.
                    * Your mortal brother and/or his kids.
                    * Dave your old war buddy who is also your ghoul but almost an equal because he still has enough of a willpower score not to be Renfield and even occasionally talk back.
                    * A child prodigy who you finance through art school because you, kinda, sorta, killed her parents.

                    5. Tell the player characters the Kindred world is still largely mysterious to them. If they have Occult, they have HEARD of the Banu Haquim, Giovanni, and Ministry of Set but note it's pretty rare for them to be encountered. Also, the Sabbat has been oft kilter for like a decade so if you're a new vampire then they're more like ISIS terrorists at best (heard of but rarely encountered) or the boogeyman everyone older than you remembers.

                    I.e. very much like Chicago 1st Edition where there's all manner of horrifying and terrible secrets but none of the indie clans. The Sabbat are the 0 Humanity but still apparently functional psychopaths out to save everyone.

                    A couple of other setting points:

                    6. Thin Bloods are a much bigger deal in 5th Edition than they are in 1st Edition and provide, essentially, a bunch of people lower on the totem pole than the PCs. PCs are meant to be 12th and 13th generation nobodies in the original 1st Edition so, "the lowest of the low" but this gives them someone to feel protective of since they're Queen of the Damned Lestat compared to these guys. I recommend letting the PCs know a couple or even consider being one as the rules are there and well designed.

                    7. The changes of feeding mean that roughly this is the case:

                    8th and 9th generation vampires can't feed on animal blood or blood bags. They need a herd and to feed directly from the tap.
                    10th generation I'm iffy on.
                    11th, 12th, and 13th can drink animal blood and blood bags as a substitute.

                    This is a big change as it gives a cost to being a vampire of higher stronger power and gives a mechanical incentive to being a shitty 13th generation. Animalism, which allows lower generations to feed on animals now, also becomes a MUCH MUCH more important skill if you're going to play a Friendly Neighborhood Vampire.

                    8. Disciplines are more weird and flexible but honestly I don't see much difference. The biggest changes are with Animalism as mentioned.

                    9. Hunger mechanics basically work on the idea of, "you need to feed every night if you want to avoid being dangerous to people." It's not going to actually affect your characters much if they don't want it to. State you have a regular supply of blood (see above) and show how but if you don't want it to be steady, it can be a source of adventures. In simple terms, Herds are much more important in this world.

                    Either that or you pony up, buy Animalism, and play a Higher generation vampire in which case it's then exactly like 2nd edition of "I summon a swarm of rats, eat, and be done. Now, where's the adventure?"

                    But if you don't want to do that, you can always open an adventure with, "You haven't fed in three nights and are a ticking time bomb."

                    10. For experienced players who do want to play things like the Beckoning and/or Second Edition I tell them:

                    "The Elders are still there but there's a bunch of missing seats at the table that have gotten more noticeable in the past couple of years. It really effects the Elders more than it does you because you only know one less older than dirt asshole is making your day harder, well more like 3 (out of 20), but every one of those remaining Elders knows someone that has died or gone missing. The ones that died are less disconcerting than the fact Sirrus, the obnoxious Ventrue Primogen, bought an M4 off your buddy Lenny and a sword off the internet (did he even know how to use a computer?) to go fight in the Crusades. Malkavian prank? Maybe, but it's not a funny one since he's bought a freighter ticket to Syria. Now all the newspapers in the city are reporting the occult crimes they used to cover up."

                    "It's only recently occurred that people YOU know, like Dave the Kindred gas station attendant, have started to go missing. Dave got arrested by the police who somehow subdued a 10th generation Brujah and no one can find out what happened to him. Probably because he was left in a room with a sunny view. Now you have to wonder, are the cops outside the club in the know? If they are, do they know what you are? Are you safe in your haven? Probably. No one is reporting vampires in the nightly news so maybe it's just some elders blowing smoke or maybe this is the end. Either way, you still need to feed and the gorgeous girl across the nightclub has been eyeing you all night. She's probably not a plant."


                    It's not something that has affected everyone except the Tremere personally but is a source of paranoia and fear.
                    Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-28-2018, 04:52 AM.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Camilla View Post
                      Particularly my idea for a game that is essentially "Black Lagoon with Fangs", heavy on the action and especially political backstabbery, but light on the supernatural wangsting.

                      Note that I am fine with personal horror in small doses or in combination with action and politics, but I don't like it being the sole focus of a chronicle.

                      Having run the game, and specifically a pretty action centric scenario, I can say V5 lends itself to action very well.
                      In 4 hours we were able to get through multiple action scenes and combat scenes. It's incredibly streamlined.
                      I didn't find the hunger system intrusive and with the groups I ran with messy criticals were treated as semi successful botch.

                      My 2 cents

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                        I strongly suggest you try and search the internet for a PDF of Rusted Veins because I think a big part of the problem in the main book is the fact Rusted Veins wasn't included within the chronicle and you don't actually get a sense of HOW the game is supposed to be run unless you either read it or listen to the Gentleman Gamer's 7 video series on how the universe has changed.

                        Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgP8QN-kHS0
                        Part 2: https://youtu.be/G4_HOn8mmNM
                        Part 3: https://youtu.be/xql-QOdKMT8
                        Part 4: https://youtu.be/YmCiqv-T9M0
                        Part 5: https://youtu.be/8wtIMlxcomM
                        Part 6: https://youtu.be/_p0jC-RMel4
                        Part 7: https://youtu.be/6KmaK_IbjcQ

                        Honestly, you shouldn't have to have 7 vlogs to understand things or an adventure model but I think the problem isn't that new gamers can't understand V5. It's that OLD GAMERS have difficulty understanding what is different versus what is the same. A lot of gamers think all elders are dead/beckoned, that no vampire can actually meet with other vampires, and other crazy stuff they get from exaggerating the idea.

                        Rusted Veins and the videos above depict a "back to basics" sort of universe that the metaplot is trying to encourage you to of:

                        1. Anarchs vs. Camarilla
                        2. Older vampires vs. new ones
                        3. Trying to keep ties with your human life or humans you care about
                        4. trying to avoid people spotting you as a vampire

                        What Rusted Veins tells us about 5E

                        If you can't track down Rusted Veins, the premise is actually really simple. Your player characters are a coterie of vampires who live in Gary and have been embraced there. An old contact of them is involved in organized crime (of the shitty low paying kind) and tells them about a hugely profitable drug deal that's about to take place. Either because they're nervous, they're snitching, or they want to share the good news.

                        Well, this being Gary, the whole deal goes South and the cops of Gary steal the drugs and the money because they want to make a shit ton of money for themselves--because it's the World of Darkness. It's only the players who discover how much of a shistorm this has caused because the drugs belonged to Modius who has been reduced to drug dealing to maintain his *airquotes* "lavish" lifestyle. The book even nicely states Modius is shit at this and giving way too a good a selection of drugs for the price he's asking.

                        Modius wants to kill every mortal involved in this clusterfuck, including the PC's friend and the cops (which will draw heavy heat because killing a bunch of cops even in Gary is the kind of thing that gets noticed by the Second Inquisition).

                        Juggler and Sullivan Dane are side characters with the former wanting the money and drugs himself (which he can sell at a much-much better price than Modius) while being willing to split it with the PCs--he's just mostly interested in sticking it to the Prince now.

                        Sullivan Dane is an old man now but still spry enough to want to save a bunch of humans from an insane old elder. The book states Sullivan is fully prepared to substitute himself to be killed by Modius for the PC's friend, reminding us that while many are hypocrites in the WOD--SD walks the walk. Also, it will kill Modius since his blood is like holy acid to Kindred.

                        Then the Primogen of Chicago arrive because this has turned into an epic clusterfuck. This allows the PCs to make a good first impression.

                        It's a VERY first edition and frankly awesome module that should have been included with the main book like Baptism by Fire.

                        Things to remember when using V5

                        When I use the "new" rules for 1st Edition style games, I told all of my players to basically forget the specifics and focus on the themes--which are not that difficult to remember or implement.

                        Here's steps 1-10 for that.

                        1. Have your players tell you, in detail, how your characters feed. Incentivize it with the fact they will get a bonus to skills and maybe an attribute or even discipline depending on how interesting it is. We're all adults here and a few extra points here and there is not a gamebreaker. Do you mug people, seduce them, presence them, or run an elaborate scam about New Age blood treatments?
                        2. Tell your player characters that if they kill someone with the Kiss, they don't have to roll for Hunger frenzies for the rest of the night. It's a small detail but it's something that highlights the terrible temptation to finish off your enemies via feeding.
                        3. Tell the player characters to mark something on their sheet that your character actually believes in. Like, "overthrow the Prince", "protect blacks from my neighborhood against corrupt cops and white developers", or "make sure my mom is cared for despite the fact I'm dead and she's demented."
                        Tell them this will help their humanity or degeneration depending on it.
                        4. Ask the players to have one mortal who means something to them. It doesn't have to be a GOOD relationship and I encourage it to be fucked up in some way. I use Heather Poe as an example. Your hot ghoul girlfriend who you have wanted to protect and love but you've kind of, well, made her your sex slave.

                        Other examples being:

                        * The aforementioned demented mother who is your last tie to your old life and WILL die soon.
                        * Your mortal brother and/or his kids.
                        * Dave your old war buddy who is also your ghoul but almost an equal because he still has enough of a willpower score not to be Renfield and even occasionally talk back.
                        * A child prodigy who you finance through art school because you, kinda, sorta, killed her parents.

                        5. Tell the player characters the Kindred world is still largely mysterious to them. If they have Occult, they have HEARD of the Banu Haquim, Giovanni, and Ministry of Set but note it's pretty rare for them to be encountered. Also, the Sabbat has been oft kilter for like a decade so if you're a new vampire then they're more like ISIS terrorists at best (heard of but rarely encountered) or the boogeyman everyone older than you remembers.

                        I.e. very much like Chicago 1st Edition where there's all manner of horrifying and terrible secrets but none of the indie clans. The Sabbat are the 0 Humanity but still apparently functional psychopaths out to save everyone.

                        A couple of other setting points:

                        6. Thin Bloods are a much bigger deal in 5th Edition than they are in 1st Edition and provide, essentially, a bunch of people lower on the totem pole than the PCs. PCs are meant to be 12th and 13th generation nobodies in the original 1st Edition so, "the lowest of the low" but this gives them someone to feel protective of since they're Queen of the Damned Lestat compared to these guys. I recommend letting the PCs know a couple or even consider being one as the rules are there and well designed.

                        7. The changes of feeding mean that roughly this is the case:

                        8th and 9th generation vampires can't feed on animal blood or blood bags. They need a herd and to feed directly from the tap.
                        10th generation I'm iffy on.

                        11th, 12th, and 13th can drink animal blood and blood bags as a substitute.

                        This is a big change as it gives a cost to being a vampire of higher stronger power and gives a mechanical incentive to being a shitty 13th generation. Animalism, which allows lower generations to feed on animals now, also becomes a MUCH MUCH more important skill if you're going to play a Friendly Neighborhood Vampire.

                        8. Disciplines are more weird and flexible but honestly I don't see much difference. The biggest changes are with Animalism as mentioned.
                        9. Hunger mechanics basically work on the idea of, "you need to feed every night if you want to avoid being dangerous to people." It's not going to actually affect your characters much if they don't want it to. State you have a regular supply of blood (see above) and show how but if you don't want it to be steady, it can be a souce of adventures. In simple terms, Herds are much more important in this world.

                        Either that or you pony up, buy Animalism, and play a Higher generation vampire in which case it's then exactly like 2nd edition of "I summon a swarm of rats, eat, and be done. Now, where's the adventure?"

                        But if you don't want to do that, you can always open an adventure with, "You haven't fed in three nights and are a ticking time bomb."

                        10. For experienced players who do want to play things like the Beckoning and/Or Second Edition I tell them:

                        "The Elders are still there but there's a bunch of missing seats at the table that have gotten more noticeable in the past couple of years. It really effects the Elders more than it does you because you only know one less older than dirt asshole is making your day harder, well more like 3 (out of 20), but every one of those remaining Elders knows someone that has died or gone missing. The ones that died are less disconcerting than the fact Sirrus, the obnoxious Ventrue Primogen, bought an M4 off your buddy Lenny and a sword off the internet (did he even know how to use a computer?) to go fight in the Crusades. Malkavian prank? Maybe, but it's not a funny one since he's bought a freighter ticket to Syria. Now all the newspapers in the city are reporting the occult crimes they used to cover up."

                        "It's only recently occurred that people YOU know, like Dave the Kindred gas station attendant, have started to go missing. Dave got arrested by the police who somehow subdued a 10th generation Brujah and no one can find out what happened to him. Probably because he was left in a room with a sunny view. Now you have to wonder, are the cops outside the club in the know? If they are, do they know what you are? Are you safe in your haven? Probably. No one is reporting vampires in the nightly news so maybe it's just some elders blowing smoke or maybe this is the end. Either way, you still need to feed and the gorgeous girl across the nightclub has been eyeing you all night. She's probably not a plant."


                        It's not something that has affected everyone except the Tremere personally but is a source of paranoia and fear.

                        Welp, I've decided I will buy V5 now. Still not going to use the metaplot though.

                        My game will be 5E Rules, 1E Style and Setting.

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                        • #13
                          I didn't think you would but thought I'd give my observations on the metaplot too at the end because why not.



                          I hope I explained how I used it in decent terms.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            I didn't think you would but thought I'd give my observations on the metaplot too at the end because why not.



                            I hope I explained how I used it in decent terms.

                            You did, and I appreciate you putting things in perspective and ultimately selling me on getting V5 and trying out the new mechanics.

                            I think I can get a lot of mileage out of Touchstones.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hope you enjoy it.

                              I think the changes are not as big as people might think and mostly work for game balance purposes. It gives a better reason to play weaker vampires and maybe also give some extra story hooks as well as encourage characters to have concrete motives.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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