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Connecting the Clans (a little Requiem on Masquerade)

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  • #16
    I've seen and read this a few times... since I'm going a different direction, I'll let you all in on what I was doing...

    There were to be between 4 and 6 vampire progenitors, with one being THE first vampire... I'll call him Alpha. Alpha would have zero connection to the other 4 progenitors, like they each became vampires in their own ways completely unconnected to Alpha (and I'll call them Bravo, Charlie, Delta, and Echo).

    Alpha's vampires would be the classic "Generation" style vampires, each being one step farther removed the later down the chain... I simply changed Caine out for a non-Abrahamic progenitor.

    Bravo's vampires would have been due to divine curse, i.e. Longinus poking Jesus with a pointy stick. This line would have used a form of Blood Potency.

    Charlie's vampires would have been 3 angels... no, just kidding, I thought I'd throw in a TV reference there... Charlie's lot would be alien in origin, like the Strain vampires from Fox... infected and altered by an alien virus or symbiotic relationship.

    Delta's vampires would have been a "flat" model... they don't gain power over time, they simply learn to use what they have as they discover what they have. There would have been a mechanic I'd have doctored up to allow for them to expand their abilities without causing the standard "I'm older, I win" situation.

    Echo's vampires would have been genetically engineered weapons. Their origin would be fairly recent and because of the source of the genetic engineering, they would have been modeled to mimic many of the other vampire's traits to "fit in."

    The discovery of several strains of vampire origins would have been a potential focus of the game, with the search for the first vampire (Alpha) as a goal. I've spent a couple of weeks developing this story to this point but have already simplified it by removing the multiple strains theory from the equation because there is a bigger entanglement I can use with introducing the other splats and their issues into the mix. That plan is under development.


    I'd love to have a forum to offload all my great ideas that I can't use because I don't have the time or have no steady troupe to work with on a regular basis.

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    • #17
      Little aside - that the antediluvians generated the clans does not have to mean they are of the clans.

      What if some "3rd gen" had four, five or six (!) disciplines maxed out and decided to experiment with childer with different discipline sets at different places and eras in history? You could have antediluvians that call no clan its own and those that spawned several (and smile at its childer simplistic folly of thinking their inceptor/founder equal to them).

      Originally posted by LimeFlavored View Post
      I need a little help... I'm working on a sort of "mashup," kinda, and I was wondering if those more versed in the clans of both could help me out.

      I'd like to use the Requiem "5 clan" as the "trunk" and branch out the 13 from Masquerade from them. For example, the Mekhet could be the umbrella to the Assamite, Lasombra, and Tremere.

      Going with the others, Daeva could be the umbrella to the Ravnos and Toreador. Gangrel as umbrella to Brujah and Gangrel (duh). Nosferatu as umbrella to Malkavian, Nosferatu (duh), and Tzimisce. Ventrue as umbrella to Giovanni, Followers of Set, and Ventrue (yes, duh).

      My line of thinking is that the Daeva have the passionate and the flamboyant... and I realize that making the Ravnos one of them may seem a stretch but I was looking mostly at Chimerstry as being the flamboyant part. The Mekhet are the shadowy and ritualistic bunch. Gangrel as the rebels and woodsy types. Nosferatu are the "twisted" and unnerving, nightmarish folks. Ventrue fit all the devout and aristocratic.

      Anyone have any takes or corrections?

      For those wondering, I'm also thinking of branching out this "tree" with the Bloodlines out of the branches.
      Well, what exactly for? What is the idea behind this "branching arrangement", how would it affect or not the background of your chronicle, what effects does it have on kindred history, conflicts or lore passed on to the PCs by their sires, for example? What exactly is your aim with this concept, what does it help or inspire you with as a ST?

      Because way i see it, Requiem's aim with the 5 clans/archetypes was less complexity/work for the ST and i'm ssort of getting the opposite feeling here.
      Last edited by Baaldam; 10-14-2018, 05:19 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
        Well, what exactly for? What is the idea behind this "branching arrangement", how would it affect or not the background of your chronicle, what effects does it have on kindred history, conflicts or lore passed on to the PCs by their sires, for example? What exactly is your aim with this concept, what does it help or inspire you with as a ST?

        Because way i see it, Requiem's aim with the 5 clans/archetypes was less complexity/work for the ST and i'm ssort of getting the opposite feeling here.
        If you read the spoiler, I explain why I wanted the branching. A "TL;DR" version is here:

        The massive amount of branches, as well as alternate versions of the origin (keeping many different types of vampires) was to obscure the fact that there was more than one progenitor.


        I was making it too complicated... I'm streamlining what I was thinking into something more cohesive and easier to follow... and more "out of the box."

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        • #19
          I did read on what you said of the inceptors and their differences/origins, but that is more backstory/exposition of sorts than something for them to interact with.
          Well, except for the mechanics - tinkerinng with rules can be tempting sometimes but aalso a slippery slope and my gut feeling that you were hindering more than helping yourself with that complexity.

          Putting it another way, i guess my question would be like - "Ok, there's no Caine, or more precisely, there's more than one. How would the PCs even guess/know? And what difference does it make for their night-to-night existence to find out?"

          - Are there multiple legends about kindred origins in the city the chronicle is set?

          - How do local kindred feel about their relevance, truth & etc, does it impact in their factions, web of connections and such, within the domain (or in the case of the well-connected/travelled) and/or beyond it?

          - Does some clique of elders/primogen or the prince push some sort of weird policies based in a personal belief in such myth or others (like some elders regular paranoia in 3rd ed about Caitiff proliferation as a sign of Gehenna, for example?)

          - Is there some secret society, mystery cult, lead or not by some glorious monster, ancient or new, claiming to be such a progenitor, the direct child of one or membership in a clan thought long-lost or brand new?

          (Say, Critias from Chicago by Night, identified by Aristotle De Laurent as another major Noddist and reference, starting to claim the character in a certain platonian dialogue about Atlantis is actually him and the tale about the lost land the "10 divine children of the lord of the deep" actually about the kindred and their first fall)

          (Alternatively, a young kindred previously identified as Caitiff has appeared again after months/years - if not decades - of absence and had the gall of presenting itself at court as "heir of the Salubri/Cappadocians/etc reclaiming its fallen legacy" and when confronted about this made a show of some weird discipline in self-defense as truth. It seems to try to be orderly and not cause trouble to the status quo, but lots of curious noddists - and confused Caitiff, with strange hopes of discovering secret origins and such - now flock to it as moths to the flame, what now?)

          Anyway, my point is, interaction is key to the story: how does a fact - or belief in something that might or not be fact - impacts on characters relate to one's chronicle.


          Focus on the basics first:

          How would the PCs hear about convoluted tales on clans "family relations" or origins (in fact, how many clans and/or bloodlines make their presence felt in the city?)

          Throw some weird stuff kindred do based on belief on such tales - like say, a Nosferatu Cleopatra obsessed with findind a ritual or artifact (like Carna's Book of the Grave-War, or the Codex of the Damned, from Diablerie: Mexico) that would allow it "to backtrack into the blood" and rid oneself of the clan curse by jumping to a "cousin branch" or some other nonsense, for example.

          Maybe some weird NPC musings to make them curious or worried about such myths or theories kindred make out of them...
          "Does the river of blood that turned Set from mortal to clan founder truly exist? what if one already kindred drank from it?"
          "Did you know Tenochtitlan, Mexico city's original name, literally means "City of Tenoch", the supposed founder of their people? Just one letter away of Enoch. would be pretty crazy if the First City was actually made and forgotten in the Americas, uh?"

          Stuff to whet their appetite on investigating how the lines of kindred mix, match or not, throw a little bit or two that clash mightly with canon...
          - the Cappadocians are actually just a branch of pre-3rd eye Salubri that used their adopted role of chroniclers of kindred history in the post-roman world to elevate/fake themselves into clan status and the Giovanni eliminated them out of rivalry more than anything.
          - the Giovanni are actually related to the Lasombra, two branches of the same conspiratory young usurpers deposing their ancient precursors ("Come on, how many 'Latin not-Ventrue Machiavelli wannabes, with Potence AND Dominate & fallen clan ledership in Italy' do you think existed? A little too many parallels and dots connecting in the tales for mere coincidence, eh? So, who really consumed the Ante and who's faking it")

          let them play a bit with it, come up with weird theories of their own - and get themselves in trouble searchiing for evidence of them - and leave the matter of actual falsehood or truth open for when you do have a seed of a story to make out of revealing that.
          Last edited by Baaldam; 10-22-2018, 08:34 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
            I did read on what you said of the inceptors and their differences/origins, but that is more backstory/exposition of sorts than something for them to interact with.
            Well, except for the mechanics - tinkerinng with rules can be tempting sometimes but aalso a slippery slope and my gut feeling that you were hindering more than helping yourself with that complexity.
            Way more hindering myself, yes. When I realized I was digging the hole I stopped and reevaluated.

            Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
            Putting it another way, i guess my question would be like - "Ok, there's no Caine, or more precisely, there's more than one. How would the PCs even guess/know? And what difference does it make for their night-to-night existence to find out?"
            The PCs would uncover this and with the knowledge comes the realization that the "status quo" changed. Think "Da Vinci Code" for vampires (turns into a race/thriller).

            Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
            - Is there some secret society, mystery cult, lead or not by some glorious monster, ancient or new, claiming to be such a progenitor, the direct child of one or membership in a clan thought long-lost or brand new?
            At least one secret society, yes. Hints of direct interaction from the oldest side of things pop up during the investigation.

            Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
            Maybe some weird NPC musings to make them curious or worried about such myths or theories kindred make out of them...
            "Does the river of blood that turned Set from mortal to clan founder truly exist? what if one already kindred drank from it?"
            "Did you know Tenochtitlan, Mexico city's original name, literally means "City of Tenoch", the supposed founder of their people? Just one letter away of Enoch. would be pretty crazy if the First City was actually made and forgotten in the Americas, uh?"
            Interest in finding some of the "legendary sources of vampirism" would be a push... knowing the info I have and a means to drive them towards that.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by LimeFlavored View Post
              Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
              Putting it another way, i guess my question would be like - "Ok, there's no Caine, or more precisely, there's more than one. How would the PCs even guess/know? And what difference does it make for their night-to-night existence to find out?"

              The PCs would uncover this and with the knowledge comes the realization that the "status quo" changed. Think "Da Vinci Code" for vampires (turns into a race/thriller).
              Then comes the embarassing time i must admit to knowing almost nothing about Da Vinci Code beside the idea of its painting hiding a secret message about belief in the legend of the Merovingian royal line's descent from Jesus, so sorry if i miss some inference that would otherrwise be obvious along the way.

              But on to the point: how do they come across the secret in the first place?

              Supposing they even do - if the wiki tricks me not, Da Vinci Code's protagonists had little awareness of the myth or the secret societies early on. They came to investigate a murder and while ddigging in for that, stumbled in an esoteric shadow war along the way. So depending on circunstances and luck with dice, one could end with a scenario where thhey achieve the "mission objective" (exposing the murderer and bringing it to justice) but fail at the "story objective" (discovering the secret society[ies] and the lore they fight over). Thinking a little on the characters - PCs & NPCs - and howw they relate to the events, info & etc could be interesting.

              Trap/Easter egg example: Auspex 3 relates to psychic imprint/emotional relevance, so its use in a murder weapon or objects in a crime scene could end up giving no glimpses of the crime or its culprit per se - while revealing murderer and victim were equally obssessed with certain apocryphal noddist lore/the Secret, making the PCs question themselves if the parts involved were past acquaitances, why this might be so important someone might kill over and so on.

              Just as importantly, how does the secret actually changes the status quo? Does it alter their perception of the game of factions and loyalties in the domain, factions, clans and so on in which ways?

              Originally posted by LimeFlavored View Post
              At least one secret society, yes. Hints of direct interaction from the oldest side of things pop up during the investigation.


              Interest in finding some of the "legendary sources of vampirism" would be a push... knowing the info I have and a means to drive them towards that.
              What have you defined about those societies - who are its members, how open or secret, accepted or persecuted is their existence in the chronicle's city, does it have branches or connections in other domains, do any of its rituals or rules clash with the Traditions or local kindred law in any way, do kindred the PCs already know, such as allies, contacts, rivals, sires or mentors, know of them or belong to any?

              Also, about "interest in finding some of the legendary sources of vampirism" i would advise gauging the PCs interests and agendas, just to be sure you won't end up with a "uh, whatever - now about how might we exploit that weird albino flagelllant assassin to our own benefit in messing with that Toreador ancilla we dislike...." scenario or something similar. Make things connect somehow in what they are already doing or messing with.
              Last edited by Baaldam; 10-27-2018, 09:51 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                Tthen comes the embarassing time i must admit to knowing almost nothing about Da Vinci Code beside the idea of its painting hiding a secret message about belief in the legend of the Merovingian royal line's descent from Jesus, so sorry if i miss some inference that would otherrwise be obvious along the way.
                The simple "secret uncovered while being pursued" thriller aspect, I just chose the most recent thing that came to mind.

                Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                But on to the point: how do they come across the secret in the first place?
                I don't want to let all my eggs out of the basket because I don't know if any prospective members are reading these forums.

                Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                Make things connect somehow in what they are already doing or messing with.
                This isn't my first rodeo... I could get you interested in chasing down the source of a half eaten bagel... as long as I had the backstory ready to go in order to entice you there.

                Imagine that... Vampire: The Half Eaten Bagel!

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by LimeFlavored View Post

                  The simple "secret uncovered while being pursued" thriller aspect, I just chose the most recent thing that came to mind.
                  Ok. So i guess the matter becomes how the PCs get involved in the plot, who else might have a stake (ouch) on it, be it on keeping things hidden, getting the secret themselves or simply wrapping up a mess from any colaterals (finding culprits, convenient judas' goats, or closing matters in a not quite fair or honest but politically expedient manner), among other individuals or groups involved.


                  Originally posted by LimeFlavored View Post
                  I don't want to let all my eggs out of the basket because I don't know if any prospective members are reading these forums.
                  Yeah, that is something to worry about, specially if you don't have a group defined already.


                  Originally posted by LimeFlavored View Post
                  This isn't my first rodeo... I could get you interested in chasing down the source of a half eaten bagel... as long as I had the backstory ready to go in order to entice you there.

                  Imagine that... Vampire: The Half Eaten Bagel!
                  All right. Have seen my number of up and downs and plot swerve or outright derailings, from the PC and ST chairs both, that i get a little too fussy on the matter of hooks, motivations, interactivity x backstory and things like that. Sometimes it's a little too easy for us to get fired up in writing a narrative and lose the "how the heck can the PCs even learn of this" angle - a vice official adventures (the Diablerie adventures, Transylvania & Giovanni Chronicles to a degree) can also a little too prone to.

                  As an aside, are you using some of the "By Night" books for your city or making it mostly from scratch?
                  Last edited by Baaldam; 10-24-2018, 08:04 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                    As an aside, are you using some of the "By Night" books for your city or making it mostly from scratch?
                    I'll be taking Damnation City and specializing Portland to what it would actually be... because Rose City by Night in the Storyteller's Vault is not accurate (as far as the scarcity of feeding options). We have a massive indigent population here and nobody is going to miss one if they up and disappear one night. Plus, there are a lot of them with mental issues, so complaining about another indigent going missing will likely get dismissed (story wise).

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by LimeFlavored View Post

                      I'll be taking Damnation City and specializing Portland to what it would actually be... because Rose City by Night in the Storyteller's Vault is not accurate (as far as the scarcity of feeding options). We have a massive indigent population here and nobody is going to miss one if they up and disappear one night. Plus, there are a lot of them with mental issues, so complaining about another indigent going missing will likely get dismissed (story wise).

                      So pretty much making the domain, cast and its history from scratch then. More work setting it all up, but a good heaping of stuff to tinker to tastes at least.

                      As an aside, regular poaching of a indigent population where are a lot of them deal with mental issues makes me thing Nos, Malkavians and other kindred with stalking/snatching tendencies are a must among the local kindred. Or for rich kindred to have their ghouls snatch and clean up the for them, so to speak...

                      PS: Portland, Maine or Portland, Oregon? Guessing the first but not 100% certain.
                      Last edited by Baaldam; 11-02-2018, 06:08 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Just remembered - it might or not be of interest to your own plans for the city, but just remembered Dark Colony has some some stuff on Portland.
                        Jeremy Skelton (Brujah Antitribu elder) in particular lived in the city in his mortal years.

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                        • #27
                          You can just port the Requiem clans and say that the masquerade clans that arent there are now bloodlines that provide a extra in clan discipline and one free dot at it but at the cost of adquiring a second clan bane.Great part of requiem beuty is in the fact that is a toolbox.You can easily port it´s mechanics to a masquerade setting with is something I highly recommend becuase while requiem has a better system the masquerade has a lot of interesting characters thanks to the by nights books and also the Camarilla/Sabbat/Anarch factions.
                          .
                          CLAN Ventrue Daeva Gangrel Nosferatu Mekhet
                          DISCIPLINES Dominate , Animalism and Fortitude Potence ,
                          Celerity and
                          Presence
                          Protean ,
                          Animalism and
                          Fortitude
                          Potence ,
                          Obfuscate and
                          Nightmare
                          Auxpex ,
                          Celerity and
                          Obfuscate
                          CONCEPT Undead Aristocracy Idols and Blood Sex Gods. Ultimate predators Your worst nightmare Seekers of secrets
                          WEAKNESS Must feed from one spefic vessel to obtain nourishment

                          (Take a penalty equal to bane severity in hunting rolls)
                          They take a penalty equal to bane severity if they dont fullfil their vice that night. They devolop animal or inhuman traits if they frenzy for a number of days equal to their bane severity They are ugly masquerade breaches and becuase of that they take a penalty in all social rolls equal to bane severity They have a secret bane like garlic or silver that imposes over them a penalty to all rolls equal to bane severity for a night.
                          BLOODLINES Salubri (Auxpex)
                          Tremere (Thaumaturgy)
                          True Brujah (Celerity)
                          Brujah (Animalism)
                          Toreador (Auxpex)
                          Akasha (Fortitude)
                          Tzimisce (Visicitude)
                          Gargolies (Visceratika)
                          Ravnos (Chimerstry)
                          Capadocian (Necromancy)
                          Giovanni (Necromancy)
                          Nictuku (Auxpex)
                          LaSombra (Obtenebration)
                          Assamites (Thaumaturgy)
                          Settites (Protean)
                          .
                          Note:
                          Vampires of all clans can become Malkavians (Dementation) and Baalis (Daimonion).This is due the demonic nature of the baalis and the fact that dementation is like a disease in requiem.
                          Note 2:When a vampire is embraced he only inherits the vampire clan to become a member of a bloodline you must drink the blood of an actual member who spends 1 wp to tranfer part of his power to you and you must also accept willingly to become part of the bloodline.This is called the re-embrace.
                          Last edited by Leandro16; 11-02-2018, 10:19 PM.


                          Hunger pool

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                            You can just port the Requiem clans and say that the masquerade clans that arent there are now bloodlines that provide a extra in clan discipline and one free dot at it but at the cost of adquiring a second clan bane.Great part of requiem beuty is in the fact that is a toolbox.You can easily port it´s mechanics to a masquerade setting with is something I highly recommend becuase while requiem has a better system the masquerade has a lot of interesting characters thanks to the by nights books and also the Camarilla/Sabbat/Anarch factions.
                            Depends on how familiar a group's players are or not with Masquerade. The more they are, the more such a frame can turn into an added layer of canon/lore to "relearn" in place of what they already about the setting. And that without going into VtM lovers with a prejudice/chip on the shoulder over Requiem, "why X is a clan but [pet clan X] is a bloodline" and other possible issues.

                            Start with Masquerade as is and then introduce new bits of lore and mechanics as revelations as one's plot advances.

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