Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Potence

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Frontline989
    started a topic Potence

    Potence

    Can someone explain why the potence powers of Prowess and Fists of Caine do not apply to melee weapons as well as unarmed damage? Is this a balance issue? Its very nonsensical to me.

  • Illithid
    replied
    * My thought on Potence hardening the body for strikes was a way to explain the fact that weapons stop being as effective as fists from what I remember of impact moments.

    Something like a Sledgehammer would (in V5) only be matched by raw potence with the two powers we are talking about at Potence 8 (for a + 4 damage weapon) so yes, it'll help until your potence is crazy effective.

    Leave a comment:


  • PMárk
    replied
    Caveat: my physics worth shit, I practically didn't spend any time on it since high school and I was shit then too. So, please, do not expect me to back up what I wrote with equations and such.

    However, I have martial arts experience and some layman's "physics" connected to that, so.

    Originally posted by Illithid View Post
    PMárk
    In a Para-physics sense, I think I can explain it.

    Damage isn't calculated purely as the momentum of a blow. It is more reliant on the "moment" of the impact, which is why a small flex backwards when a boxer is hit is less "damaging" because it can extend the moment of transfer of energy over a longer time. Just like padding slows the impact as well. Mostly, the Momentum and energy transferred is the same...
    Another aspect is the area of the strike; a sharper instrument has less area, so the same power has a higher cutting ability. (As far as I remember my real life physics)
    As far as I can tell, yes.

    Now for the Para- aspects. Potence "Does more damage" and is Supernatural

    * In order to "Do More damage" in this equation; it must impart more energy over a shorter time. It generally doesn't seem to make your fists "Sharper" but does allow (with Lethal Body) to do that kind of damage to a mortal frame...
    Now, it's interesting. Do Potence make your fists harder? Or, is it just increses the energy output of your muscles? Some hardening must be necessary, since you aren't breaking down your fists, using potence, on the contrary, you punch through walls, etc. But I think it's mostly energy increasing.

    * As such, If the fists themselves become more rigid and impact the energy over a shorter moment; they will do more damage.
    Even then, I don't think it makes fists harder than most weapons' material.


    If they can impact it over a shorter moment than the weapon, they will do more damage than the weapon. (other things being equal)
    Why would it impact it over shorter moment?

    * Also, while a constant energy over a smaller area will do more damage (Blades & Knuckle dusters for example) If the fist supernaturally impart the same Pressure over a smaller area as it could over the larger area (Say a whole fist size instead of half-fist with a knuckle duster) then the Whole-fist will do more damage.
    That seems a bit circular to me. If it could impart x ammount of pressure over a larger are, with the same energy, it could impart more pressure over a smaller area. It assumes that, for some reason, potence pumps more energy into punches, than swinging a sword, so the energy is less in the second case.

    *Leverage is the main advantage of a bigger weapon, it's construction will determine how well in can impart the energy at the point of a blow - A wooden Baseball bat will have more give than a well made steel sword, so the sword has a smaller Moment of Impact AND we're also looking at the pressure.
    Aaaaactually, no (if I understand you correctly). The baseball bat would be better at imparting energy, due to mass distribution. That's why swords aren't anti-armor weapons, but axes, maces and hammers are. Swords are nimble, because they're weighted closer to the hilt, and they are sharp (smaller point of contact), meaning they are ideal for defense and cutting flesh.

    It's just, if you can put more energy behing your sword-swing, you generate more power, concentrated on a smaller contact surface, thus,a deeper cut.

    So, If the If the Fists are so supernaturally solid that the moment of the blow is a quarter of the usual time,
    Well, I think, after a point, it doesn't matter, how solid you make the fist. A diamond fist, I think, will cause less damage, than a steel point, or edge, given equal power, just because, why on a micro-scale, being super-hard means smaller contact area, due to the natural elasticity of flesh, clothes, etc, that doesn't really matter. You just can't make your fist into a mono-molecular blade, because due to it's form, it won't penetrate deep enough for it to matter, given equal power. Of course, it depends on the target, for instance, potence fists migh be better at breaking doors, than potence swords.


    compared to a sword where the Leverage allows the speed to impart a half of the moment,
    Actually, the end of the sword, which you are hitting, would move faster, than your hand (that's why it's so damn hard, to defend long, pointy weapons, like spears, or rapiers, their point moves insanely fast). So, it's having the same energy (same potence level) behind it, but moving faster, having a smaller area of impact and extra power from leverage and (arguably) the mass of the weapon.

    and the "sharpness" applies that to half the area - then they end up causing roughly equal damage.
    As above. Also, much smaller are, I think, since a well-sharpened edge is well under 1 mm (shaving sharp is a thing), not to mention points.

    But even with blunt weapons, like baseball bats/maces, you're adding extra weight, leverage and speed, in comparison to your fists, even assuming your fists are harder.

    In conclusion, it's possible with slight tweaks to real-world physics for a "Punch" to be more damaging to a mortal/vampire's frame than a sword.

    I apologize for any terms that are used incorrectly and invite sports-scientists to improve this theory. I'm working off memory from about 20 years ago for my physics.
    Well, as I wrote at the beginning, my physics aren't better, in any way, and I'd welcome anyone, who know more and could explain, to chime in too!

    At this point, I think, if potence makes fists super-hard, it'd be better at breaking things, than a sword, but the user would still cause more damage, using appropriate tools, like a sledgehammer to a door and a sword to an unarmored human, just because of the added mass, velocity and leverage. I think those wouldn't be outmatched just by making the fists harder.

    Leave a comment:


  • Illithid
    replied
    PMárk
    In a Para-physics sense, I think I can explain it.

    Damage isn't calculated purely as the momentum of a blow. It is more reliant on the "moment" of the impact, which is why a small flex backwards when a boxer is hit is less "damaging" because it can extend the moment of transfer of energy over a longer time. Just like padding slows the impact as well. Mostly, the Momentum and energy transferred is the same...
    Another aspect is the area of the strike; a sharper instrument has less area, so the same power has a higher cutting ability. (As far as I remember my real life physics)

    Now for the Para- aspects. Potence "Does more damage" and is Supernatural

    * In order to "Do More damage" in this equation; it must impart more energy over a shorter time. It generally doesn't seem to make your fists "Sharper" but does allow (with Lethal Body) to do that kind of damage to a mortal frame...

    * As such, If the fists themselves become more rigid and impact the energy over a shorter moment; they will do more damage. If they can impact it over a shorter moment than the weapon, they will do more damage than the weapon. (other things being equal)

    * Also, while a constant energy over a smaller area will do more damage (Blades & Knuckle dusters for example) If the fist supernaturally impart the same Pressure over a smaller area as it could over the larger area (Say a whole fist size instead of half-fist with a knuckle duster) then the Whole-fist will do more damage.

    *Leverage is the main advantage of a bigger weapon, it's construction will determine how well in can impart the energy at the point of a blow - A wooden Baseball bat will have more give than a well made steel sword, so the sword has a smaller Moment of Impact AND we're also looking at the pressure.
    So, If the If the Fists are so supernaturally solid that the moment of the blow is a quarter of the usual time, compared to a sword where the Leverage allows the speed to impart a half of the moment, and the "sharpness" applies that to half the area - then they end up causing roughly equal damage.

    In conclusion, it's possible with slight tweaks to real-world physics for a "Punch" to be more damaging to a mortal/vampire's frame than a sword.

    I apologize for any terms that are used incorrectly and invite sports-scientists to improve this theory. I'm working off memory from about 20 years ago for my physics.

    Leave a comment:


  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post
    I did misunderstand, took a second look at the errata, and I see what you meant.
    As to making sense internally, best I can offer is "Magic vampire stuff" for-in-game and "Balance" for out-of-game which probably doesn't satisfy...
    At least you tried...

    It would mean that Brass knuckles do the same damage at Potence 2, then less than brawl at 4
    Baseball Bat - same damage at Potence 4 as Brawling...
    Yup, that's the problem. I mean, how is that reasonable, that suddenly your super-strength only working on half-gas, when you pick up a weapon? Because the Beast is a natural predator and despise using tools, or some other handwaving? Which would go against earlier editions and even inconsistent internally, because it doesn't have problems with guns...

    As for balance... It's precisely the kind of gamey "balance" I don't like. I mean, Weapons are good, they are a HUGE advantage, that's why we're using them, since time immemorial. That's the point, that you're better off with them, than with bare hands. Why would it be less so with super-strength?

    Thematically it does match with Super strong Vampires only bothering with super Heavy Weapons (Greatsword, Train Track, Car Door)
    Super strength means you have more power behind your strikes with everything. Dismembering that Sabbat guy with a kitchen knife? Yes, please.

    Really, it doesn't make sense, just like armor doing nothing against superficial damage, or you being able to do awesome Neo-like dodges with super-speed, but no swifter strikes, or parries at Cel 2.


    Really, with the physical disciplines, they started in the right direction, making them more versatile and fun, but they mostly dropped the ball, sadly, IMO.
    Last edited by PMárk; 10-11-2018, 07:33 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by PMárk View Post
    You misunderstood. I think the half damage from mundane sources is okay. Honestly, I liked the greater granurality of three damage tyes, but it's okay. I was speaking about that potence adds only half of its ating to melee damage, but full to brawl, which makes zero sense internally, just as not being able to use your super speed to block, parry, or strike, just to dodge doesn't make sense either.
    I did misunderstand, took a second look at the errata, and I see what you meant.
    As to making sense internally, best I can offer is "Magic vampire stuff" for-in-game and "Balance" for out-of-game which probably doesn't satisfy...

    It would mean that Brass knuckles do the same damage at Potence 2, then less than brawl at 4
    Baseball Bat - same damage at Potence 4 as Brawling...

    Thematically it does match with Super strong Vampires only bothering with super Heavy Weapons (Greatsword, Train Track, Car Door)

    Leave a comment:


  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by thebiglarpnerd View Post


    I feel like it might, simply because damage is flatly added, and it's not a fun game if a character specced for combat can near one-shot torpor another character. But that's just my opinion.
    Ok, "fun" is subjective, but honestly, WoD combat was always like that. Unlike many, I actually thought of it as one of its merits. It was dangerous, you could die easily, just like irl and unlike in more "heroic" styled rpgs. I liked that. It was also an incentive for avoiding solving everything with combat. It also encourage4d stacking the odds as much as you can and ambushing and other smart tactics, which was, again, realistic in my oppinion.

    Leave a comment:


  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by Frontline989 View Post
    Yeah I would still allow the damage to be halved by vampires since its not supernatural damage but I think a broadsword swung by a Nosferatu would be deadly and something that would probably kill anything not supernatural outright. A vampire would be able to resist the damage better but youd still have to take the same Nossie seriously in a battle if you had just your fists to contend with.
    Agree with that. It also adds a nice flavorfull reason to why vampries would prefer swords, as I've said.

    Leave a comment:


  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post

    The system would still have the weapon work as a force multiplier, but the Kindred flesh acts against both equally because it's not *agg*
    You misunderstood. I think the half damage from mundane sources is okay. Honestly, I liked the greater granurality of three damage tyes, but it's okay. I was speaking about that potence adds only half of its ating to melee damage, but full to brawl, which makes zero sense internally, just as not being able to use your super speed to block, parry, or strike, just to dodge doesn't make sense either.

    Leave a comment:


  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Frontline989 View Post
    Yeah I would still allow the damage to be halved by vampires since its not supernatural damage but I think a broadsword swung by a Nosferatu would be deadly and something that would probably kill anything not supernatural outright. A vampire would be able to resist the damage better but youd still have to take the same Nossie seriously in a battle if you had just your fists to contend with.

    The way this system works isn't quite that way though, Unless the Nosferatu has those particular powers of Potence and activates them

    Leave a comment:


  • thebiglarpnerd
    replied
    Originally posted by Frontline989 View Post

    Thanks for the info. Would you think it would break combat if I didn't halve the damage from melee weapons? It just seems unintuitive to me.

    I feel like it might, simply because damage is flatly added, and it's not a fun game if a character specced for combat can near one-shot torpor another character. But that's just my opinion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Frontline989
    replied
    Yeah I would still allow the damage to be halved by vampires since its not supernatural damage but I think a broadsword swung by a Nosferatu would be deadly and something that would probably kill anything not supernatural outright. A vampire would be able to resist the damage better but youd still have to take the same Nossie seriously in a battle if you had just your fists to contend with.

    Leave a comment:


  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by PMárk View Post
    For the same reason Celerity couldn't add dice to attack, or any close combat defense, outside dodge...

    The errata is a right step, though, however, the half damage makes no sense. Ok, balance, but the point of weapons is that they are force multipliers,swinging them with extra strength shouldn't be less effective. I'd use it with full damage as well. Yes, it brings melee weapons up to the level of firearms, or even a bit better, in the hands of vampires with high potence, that's fine by me, I always liked the flavor of the old rules, where melee weapons caused lethal to vamps, where bullets only bashing. Since there's no separate lethal damage in V5, I think this is appropriate, to give that flavor. It also explains quite well why vampires might tend to use them instead of guns (aside from the availability and noise and tracking issues of course).

    That weapons could break under that much strain... I'd use that only if they're missing "critically" (would be botch in the old system), ie. hitting the ground or walls, or something hard. Otherwise, it just means they cut deeper, or all the way through soft tissue and bones, kinda the thing weapons were designed again.
    The system would still have the weapon work as a force multiplier, but the Kindred flesh acts against both equally because it's not *agg*

    Leave a comment:


  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by Frontline989 View Post
    Can someone explain why the potence powers of Prowess and Fists of Caine do not apply to melee weapons as well as unarmed damage? Is this a balance issue? Its very nonsensical to me.
    For the same reason Celerity couldn't add dice to attack, or any close combat defense, outside dodge...

    The errata is a right step, though, however, the half damage makes no sense. Ok, balance, but the point of weapons is that they are force multipliers,swinging them with extra strength shouldn't be less effective. I'd use it with full damage as well. Yes, it brings melee weapons up to the level of firearms, or even a bit better, in the hands of vampires with high potence, that's fine by me, I always liked the flavor of the old rules, where melee weapons caused lethal to vamps, where bullets only bashing. Since there's no separate lethal damage in V5, I think this is appropriate, to give that flavor. It also explains quite well why vampires might tend to use them instead of guns (aside from the availability and noise and tracking issues of course).

    That weapons could break under that much strain... I'd use that only if they're missing "critically" (would be botch in the old system), ie. hitting the ground or walls, or something hard. Otherwise, it just means they cut deeper, or all the way through soft tissue and bones, kinda the thing weapons were designed again.

    Leave a comment:


  • Red Eye
    replied
    Originally posted by Frontline989 View Post

    Thanks for the info. Would you think it would break combat if I didn't halve the damage from melee weapons? It just seems unintuitive to me.
    I wouldn't think so, but to be honest I'm considering bringing back the 3 levels of Damage again from past Editions as Aggravated (*), Lethal (x), and Superficial (/) seems like a good setup to me still. Halve Superficial, don't halve Lethal or Aggravated. Allow Kindred to heal Lethal like it were Superficial. Treat Lethal like Aggravated for Mortals in regards to healing, and allow Aggravated to represent supernatural damage that can't be healed at all for Mortals (giving them a whole new realm of terror to deal with).

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X