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Paths vs. Roads vs. Humanity

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
    Sure. Though, when I say 'by God', that would be natural in the context of God creating the universe and/or mankind.

    It is a problem. Even as much as a problem that personal values are probably more varied than any rigid hierarchy system can represent.
    I just don't typically see it as a big one. Mostly because (in my experience, at least) most players and games will generally share similar values. That things like killing, theft, and harm are negatives in most societies that I'm aware of.
    About theft, it became problematic on our table because one of a the characters is a communist/anarchist who believes private propriety is a problem. He would not steal from the poor unless he really had to (= stealing a car to run away from great danger) but he saw no problem stealing from the very rich or from big companies because THEY are the problem. On the other hand he is very helpful to marginalized people and believes not doing so to be "sinful"... but this sin of helping weaker people is not on the humanity scale.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
      I looked through DAV20, V20 Core, Tome of Secrets, The Black Hand: A Guide to the Tal'mahe'ra, Lore of the Bloodlines, and Lore of the Clans. I could only find Harmony and The Red Midwives (medieval Bahari, as you noted). There might be more in older books, though.
      Harmony and Red Midwives, yes. It's a rare combination, but a slightly more compassionate monster can be good RP.

      For example on Harmony you would kill without a second thought if you were endangered. But someone on Harmony would never kill an innocent, I believe. A Red Midwife would inflict a lot of agony onto a person to teach them something, but hand them a newborn babe and they'll do anything for them.

      I have considered having an Elder Bahari in my game come out of a prolonged depression when a Dhampir is born within the setting. Tears of blood, obvious paternal love for this newborn, that sort of thing.
      Last edited by 11twiggins; 10-11-2018, 03:49 AM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Kalendeer View Post
        About theft, it became problematic on our table because one of a the characters is a communist/anarchist who believes private propriety is a problem. He would not steal from the poor unless he really had to (= stealing a car to run away from great danger) but he saw no problem stealing from the very rich or from big companies because THEY are the problem. On the other hand he is very helpful to marginalized people and believes not doing so to be "sinful"... but this sin of helping weaker people is not on the humanity scale.
        I mean, I would say even a communist or anarchist was probably raised in a capitalist society or government ran state (or at least in a society that values private property). I'd only see it as meaningful in a pretty niche situation (like being raised in Communist Cuba or something), and even then I'd have to know more about the circumstances. But that's just me. The problem with being too permissive is that that sort of relative aspect can be abused. That's really where the idea of Path of Do What I Was Going To Do Anyway can spawn.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
          I mean, I would say even a communist or anarchist was probably raised in a capitalist society or government ran state (or at least in a society that values private property). I'd only see it as meaningful in a pretty niche situation (like being raised in Communist Cuba or something), and even then I'd have to know more about the circumstances. But that's just me. The problem with being too permissive is that that sort of relative aspect can be abused. That's really where the idea of Path of Do What I Was Going To Do Anyway can spawn.
          It's not "permissive" to switch a sin for another. If you replace the thief thing by "not helping an innocent in need", in the WoD you are still going to roll as innocents get caught all the times in vampire problems.
          Of course, as a ST I wouldn't allow switching a sin for something that will never come up at all.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Kalendeer View Post
            It's not "permissive" to switch a sin for another. If you replace the thief thing by "not helping an innocent in need", in the WoD you are still going to roll as innocents get caught all the times in vampire problems.
            Of course, as a ST I wouldn't allow switching a sin for something that will never come up at all.
            I mean, it depends. And your second statement seems to acknowledge that. By 'it can be abused' in trying to argue for non-relevant sins. The relevance will of course vary by game.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
              I mean, I would say even a communist or anarchist was probably raised in a capitalist society or government ran state (or at least in a society that values private property). I'd only see it as meaningful in a pretty niche situation (like being raised in Communist Cuba or something), and even then I'd have to know more about the circumstances. But that's just me. The problem with being too permissive is that that sort of relative aspect can be abused. That's really where the idea of Path of Do What I Was Going To Do Anyway can spawn.
              Well that's the fundamental idea behind Humanity vs. Road/Path.

              Humanity is the morality you were probably born with.

              Road/Path is the one you choose so much that it overrides all existing morality and is your force against the Beast.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Kalendeer View Post

                About theft, it became problematic on our table because one of a the characters is a communist/anarchist who believes private propriety is a problem. He would not steal from the poor unless he really had to (= stealing a car to run away from great danger) but he saw no problem stealing from the very rich or from big companies because THEY are the problem. On the other hand he is very helpful to marginalized people and believes not doing so to be "sinful"... but this sin of helping weaker people is not on the humanity scale.
                I'm currently designing an Anarch game and just thought about that issue last night. It's LARP so the morality system works differently, but overall I was considering changing it, or presenting it as an option to change.

                But what do you put in that is equally.... restrictive in a modern day game. So it's still balanced.

                ‚Äč
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                Humanity is the morality you were probably born with.
                Road/Path is the one you choose so much that it overrides all existing morality and is your force against the Beast.
                So, do you let humans be on a path because they have come to realize that the morality they grew up with wasn't right for them?

                But more importantly, since this is a system used across the world, and even Western citizens are coming to realize that other people might have different morals - How do we give Humanity the flexibility that mortal morality can have
                (Ironically - this ties to my personal issue with V5's morality...)

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                  But more importantly, since this is a system used across the world, and even Western citizens are coming to realize that other people might have different morals - How do we give Humanity the flexibility that mortal morality can have
                  (Ironically - this ties to my personal issue with V5's morality...)
                  Should we?

                  The Dark Ages treats this very differently as The Road of the Watchful Gods is straight up, "Roman Humanity."

                  http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Path_of_Watchful_Gods

                  Mind you, I've often considered that it might be better just to remove humanity as a concept for humans. I.e. It flat out doesn't exist. Humans don't have to worry about humanity. They may do evil but since they don't have a Beast, it doesn't matter if you go up or down.

                  Just vampire.
                  Last edited by CTPhipps; 10-11-2018, 07:06 PM.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #39
                    I've got a Viking Character on a slightly modified Watchful Gods (Replaced "Offending the gods with Violent acts" with "Showing Cowardice") It's nice.
                    The Wiki say's it's under path-of-sin, but in my PDF it has it's own title of "Other Paths" top right of Pg 137. Wierd, I think the Wiki editor read it as "Other Paths... of "Sin" but I'm pretty sure it's meant to be just "Other Paths"

                    Personally, the only reasons I think of Mortal characters having a humanity rating is
                    1) Due to powers where the difficulty is based on the rating
                    2) For them in becoming Vampires

                    They don't have a beast, it doesn't affect them being awake during the day, it is pretty irrelevant to a mortal when it comes to the mechanics of morality.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                      Should we?

                      The Dark Ages treats this very differently as The Road of the Watchful Gods is straight up, "Roman Humanity."
                      Except the Road of the Watchful Gods doesn't work as far as I am concerned for Roman characters as the emphasis is on things not necessarily associated with Romans, while other virtues that are central to romanity are excluded.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Kalendeer View Post
                        Except the Road of the Watchful Gods doesn't work as far as I am concerned for Roman characters as the emphasis is on things not necessarily associated with Romans, while other virtues that are central to romanity are excluded.
                        Id be interested in hearing more.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • #42
                          Is it said or discussed anywhere in V:tM books how many Vampires followed Roads and how many followed Humanity ( or Road of Humanity, or similar Roads ) , during the time periods when following Roads ( and knowledge about Roads ) was still common ? During the Middle Ages, the Dark Ages, the Classical Era, and before. Is there any breakdown of amounts given or implied anywhere for any time period ; and if it is not, could it be ascertained somehow from what is written in V:tM books ?
                          Last edited by Muad'Dib; 10-12-2018, 01:44 AM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                            Is it said or discussed anywhere in V:tM books how many Vampires followed Roads and how many followed Humanity ( or Road of Humanity, or similar Roads ) , during the time periods when following Roads ( and knowledge about Roads ) was still common ? During the Middle Ages, the Dark Ages, the Classical Era, and before. Is there any breakdown of amounts given or implied anywhere for any time period ; and if it is not, could it be ascertained somehow from what is written in V:tM books ?
                            No, it was always left to the ST.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                              No, it was always left to the ST.
                              What about the Independant Clans ( Ravnos, Giovanni, Assamites, Followers of Set ) - is the breakdown of amounts of Road Followers or Path Followers, and those following some form of Humanity, in those four groups described or noted anywhere in regards to any time period ?

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                                What about the Independant Clans ( Ravnos, Giovanni, Assamites, Followers of Set ) - is the breakdown of amounts of Road Followers or Path Followers, and those following some form of Humanity, in those four groups described or noted anywhere in regards to any time period ?
                                Again, you never want specifics about percentages. Just suggestions.

                                Generally, I tend to think the Followers of Set and Assamites had the most Path use, though.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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