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  • #16
    Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
    And why? They are both alive and well.
    Hahahahahahahaha

    No seriously, their Elders were all but annihilated and the Anarchs danced over their ashes.

    The Cappadochians also were annihilated fifty years before the Convention of Thorns. Not the Anarch revolt but young vampires wiping out old.

    So, yeah, the Anarchs crushed the elders.



    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #17
      Nope,

      1) The only famous Tzimisce ancient who died in the Anarch revolt is Byelobog. Yorak died by its own, Dracon lives, Kartarirya is alive and well, Lambach lives, Triglav was killed by the Dracon. Tzimisce elders are so powerful that the Old Clan still has the eastern europe in its grip through the Oradea League; while many elders might have died the situation is way less serious than you describe.

      2) Tzimisce anarchs did just what the Antedeluvian wanted them to do.

      3)Cappadocius killed its clan, not the Giovanni; Augustus just did what Cappadocius decided he had to do.

      4) Most Lasombra elders converted and joined Gratiano, just a few died at Castle Ombro.

      5)Lastly you are forgetting that the Anarch revolt has been done by...elders.

      Vykos was 400 years, Velya is a Metuselah, Lugoj was at least 700 years old, Koban 500 years old, Moncada 400 years old, Elisier de Polanco 200 years old, Augustus and Claudius 400 years old, Vitel was a 5th gen methuselah,Jalan-Aajav 300 years old, Izhim Ur-Bhaal 6000 years old, Dastur Anosh 2000 years old, Rustovich 600 years old and so on.

      There was no "young vampires" revolt. There was turn over among elders.
      Of the leader of the revolution only Tyler was not an elder.
      Last edited by Undead rabbit; 10-15-2018, 02:14 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
        Nope,

        1) The only famous Tzimisce ancient who died in the Anarch revolt is Byelobog. Yorak died by its own, Dracon lives, Kartarirya is alive and well, Lambach lives, Triglav was killed by the Dracon. Tzimisce elders are so powerful that the Old Clan still has the eastern europe in its grip through the Oradea League; while many elders might have died the situation is way less serious than you describe.

        2) Tzimisce anarchs did just what the Antedeluvian wanted them to do.

        3)Cappadocius killed its clan, not the Giovanni; Augustus just did what Cappadocius decided he had to do.

        4) Most Lasombra elders converted and joined Gratiano, just a few died at Castle Ombro.

        5)Lastly you are forgetting that the Anarch revolt has been done by...elders.

        Vykos was 400 years, Velya is a Metuselah, Lugoj was at least 700 years old, Koban 500 years old, Moncada 400 years old, Elisier de Polanco 200 years old, Augustus and Claudius 400 years old, Vitel was a 5th gen methuselah,Jalan-Aajav 300 years old, Izhim Ur-Bhaal 6000 years old, Dastur Anosh 2000 years old, and so on.

        There was no "young vampires" revolt. There was turn over among elders.
        This is just wrong.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #19
          Saying that something is wrong is worth nothing without proof.



          Tzimisce Antediluvian being the mastermind behind the anarch revolt.


          Clanbook Tzimisce


          I know what history says, but I don’t believe
          its lies so easily. I knew the sycophant Lugoj, and
          he served his masters eagerly. He claims Velya and
          he discovered Kupala’s treasure in a forgotten and
          desecrated mountain monastery.
          It grew through the
          crack of the chapel floor, and degenerate creatures,
          once monks, later Tzimisce and then Kupala’s minions
          guarded it jealously. Lugoj claims they barely
          escaped with their unlives. Lies. Lugoj played the
          lackey for his master, the Eldest, and found Kupala’s
          heart only because the Eldest so guided him. I tell you
          this because Yorak shared the truth with me ages ago.

          Had Lugoj and Velya followed the flower’s winding
          veins through the crack of the monastery’s floors, they
          would have chased it into the deepest intestines of
          Yorak’s domain, into his Cathedral of Flesh.
          Why foster this duplicity when it eventually destroyed
          a score of Tzimisce, you ask? Because Kupala’s
          sacred “fire flower” was, in fact, a portion of the Eldest’s
          newest form, a precursor to the horror dwelling in
          the sewers of New York.
          Don’t believe me, but ask
          Lambach what he witnessed in the sewers, and watch
          him stutter. The Eldest allowed Lugoj to take of itself
          so that it could shatter any former alliances shared by
          its progeny. It imparted its seeds in new generations of
          Tzimisce, binding them to it alone when it so chose.
          Ironically, the Tzimisce shared of their blood in a
          subsequent ritus, thus turning the Sabbat (as opposed
          to the clan alone) into the Eldest’s harvest.
          And when
          the thing beneath New York grows hungry, who do
          you think it will summon to feast upon?


          Clanbook Lasombra


          Gratiano leading the elders against the Antediluvian.

          Gratiano and a handful of elders descended into
          the depths to face the Antediluvian. The void-spirits
          common to the stronghold’s lower reaches were absent,
          so the descent was quick and easy. Half a dozen raiders
          fell upon the sleeping thing and drained it in minutes.
          It never awoke or stirred. When the draining finished, it
          simply crumbled into a fine black ash with tarry residue.
          There was, at the last moment, no great drama about it,
          merely the completion of a well-executed plan.
          Gratiano getting the blessing of the remaining elders.

          The Clan Without Its Head
          Gratiano convened the Friends of the Night, the
          Amici Noctis as they were then, and presented them
          with the deed already done. They could condemn him.
          Indeed, he dared them to do so, taunting them that if
          they did not stop him now, he would remake the clan
          into something altogether new. The Friends listened and
          stepped aside. Some Friends chose to join with Gratiano’s
          revolt. Others kept quiet and let events unfold.

          The only 4th gen that died at Castle Ombro is Khanom Mere (Tepelit died later).

          And Gratiano was mind-fucked either by the Antediluvian either by one of the 4th gen.

          Lasombra Clan Novel

          “You’ll let me know if I miss one, of course. First, Gratiano
          may have gone insane and developed some sort of delusion
          that keeps him from seeing the cracks in his story. Second,
          he may have been dominated by someone else. Any third
          options?” He waited more than a minute. The room was
          very quiet, with only the sound of Angelica’s breathing and
          the rustle of turning pages to break the silence. “I thought
          not. So.”
          He went to the windows and opened the drapes, to
          look out over parking lots and warehouses. ‘‘I don’t really
          know how we can proceed to check out either possibility.
          Certainly he won’t give any of us another audience. I suppose
          we can ask Timofiev to make a query. Does anyone think
          we can count on Gratiano heeding a cardinal? No? Me
          neither. But unless we think of something else, we’ll have
          to see if we or the cardinal can come up with a plausible
          story that warrants some repeated scrutiny. ‘We think you’re
          crazy’ probably won’t do it, so anyone who gets a better idea,
          let me know.”
          The drapes swung shut as he moved away, tugged by
          small tendrils of animated shadow. Lucita realized that he
          was showing off, and took note as he continued talking,
          now facing the others. “If he’s being mind controlled, we
          need to know by whom, and how far it goes.
          “The pool of candidates is small, I think. It has to be
          someone of his own generation or closer to Caine, and there
          just aren’t that many. Thirteen Antediluvians, unless there
          are some we don’t know about, and their childer. How many
          of Lasombra’s childer were still active before the revolt?”
          He stopped and looked at Lucita. She’d detected the slight
          slowing in his speech as he approached the question and
          wasn’t caught off guard.
          “At the Castle of Shadows, three. Montano. Khanom
          Mehr. Tepelit.” She thought for a moment. ‘‘I once delivered
          a message to a fourth, Blue Eye, off in the steppes, but he
          hadn’t been to the castle in two hundred years and I do not
          believe Gratiano ever encountered him.”
          “You realize how little physical distance matters for this
          purpose.” Andrew sound altogether unconfident. Lucita
          wished she could savor the experience.
          ‘‘I do. But keep in mind that although it’s possible for
          one of that generation to affect others far away, to change
          the mind of one of their own generation might well require
          close-up confrontation. Let’s set Blue Eye aside for now and
          concentrate on the others.” Andrew shrugged; Lucita took
          it as sufficient assent for now. “Montano, as we all know,
          fled. I presume he’s in torpor in some very obscure comer of
          the world right now. If anyone wants to search, I suggest
          starting with his part of eastern Africa and with Australia.
          Tepelit perished. I have a source among the Assamites”-
          what a stale way to refer to your friend, she told herself, and
          answered with, if she still is-“who worked with his killer.
          She has artifacts from his haven, and I’m convinced of her
          claims. Khanom Mehr perished in the attack, I believe. We
          have multiple accounts of her claiming to submit and then
          trying to destroy her captors.”
          “There are others, of course,” Roxana said. “Boukephos
          has had dealings with the Friends of the Night quite recently,
          and there’s Sybil. The American one, that is.. .”
          Barry cut her off. ‘‘I mean those who were there the
          night of the great revolt.”
          There was another moment of ghastly silence. Lucita
          spoke again. “Yes. That is, if we can trust any of the
          accounts.”
          “So do you want to suggest a starting point?” Conrad
          stepped in before Andrew could. The sire had her privileges,
          Lucita noted.
          “Yes, actually, I do. Konstantin wasn’t the only isolated
          dweller I know.” She paused. “You destroyed him, didn’t
          you?”
          “Yes,” Andrew nodded. “He held out well enough, but
          in the end he gave us the lead that let us follow you across
          the Atlantic.”
          “Did you.. .”
          “Oh, yes,” he smiled. ‘‘I drank him dry, and am thereby
          enriched. At some point I’ll have to account for the act to
          the Friends of the Night, but I think that they’ll have no
          problem with the wisdom or appropriateness of my conduct.”"

          As for Cappadocians

          Lore of the Bloodlines

          Our Antediluvian is the important factor. We despise the Giovanni for slaying Cappadocius.
          This may appear contrary to our hate for the Clan founder, but listen;
          Cappadocius
          was no fool. Every step of Giovanni betrayal was utterly
          orchestrated by Cappadocius and his underlings.

          You ask “why?” A lesser scholar would attribute such
          self-sacrifice to insanity, but Cappadocius’ mind was on
          a higher plane than we mere immortals. Do not try to
          understand the workings of a god.
          If you must hear my theory, it’s a simple one: Cappadocius reviled us
          as much as we loathed him. He was frustrated
          by our failures; in a great convulsion, he decided he would
          start anew through the Familia Giovanni. His death was
          a small part of the plan. Cappadocius lives on through fragments.
          One within Augustus Giovanni, another within
          the Shadowlands, and the final bound somewhere in the
          Skinlands.
          We do not hate the Giovanni for their act of murder,
          or for their theft of our vengeance, but for their being
          unwitting tools of Cappadocius. The Camarilla likewise.

          All are ignorant to the alien behavior of their founders;
          intelligences beyond comprehension. The Sabbat — despite

          Embrace dates of the leader of the Revolt can be find on the wikia.


          Last edited by Undead rabbit; 10-15-2018, 02:42 PM.

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          • #20
            Yes, I'm familiar with all of that. You're basically ignoring all the other deaths and destruction of Lasombra and Tzimisce Elders.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #21
              Yeah, which ones? The elder Silvester de Ruiz being killed by the elder Luis Moncada? or the elder Noriz being killed by the elder Koban?
              The anarch revolt was a revolt of elders against elders mostly, the young vampires were but cannon fodder.

              Of all the leaders of the anarch revolt only Tyler was young.
              Last edited by Undead rabbit; 10-15-2018, 02:57 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                Yeah, which ones? The elder Silvester de Ruiz being killed by the elder Luis Moncada? or the elder Noriz being killed by the elder Koban?
                The fact in the setting that the majority of the Tzimisce and Lasombra in the setting were killed by it. No, the "named" Tzimisce are low and they didn't get the Antediluvians but the entire setting is based around the idea the Lasombra Elders were driven to near extinction as well as the Tzmisice made into the Inconnu.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Nope, most of the Lasombra Elders just gave up and joined Gratiano when he made his pledge to the Amici Noctis. But a few died at Castle Ombro.


                  Gratiano and a handful of elders descended into
                  the depths to face the Antediluvian. The void-spirits
                  common to the stronghold’s lower reaches were absent,
                  so the descent was quick and easy. Half a dozen raiders
                  fell upon the sleeping thing and drained it in minutes.
                  It never awoke or stirred. When the draining finished, it
                  simply crumbled into a fine black ash with tarry residue.
                  There was, at the last moment, no great drama about it,
                  merely the completion of a well-executed plan.





                  The Clan Without Its Head
                  Gratiano convened the Friends of the Night, the
                  Amici Noctis as they were then, and presented them
                  with the deed already done. They could condemn him.
                  Indeed, he dared them to do so, taunting them that if
                  they did not stop him now, he would remake the clan
                  into something altogether new. The Friends listened and
                  stepped aside. Some Friends chose to join with Gratiano’s
                  revolt. Others kept quiet and let events unfold.




                  For the next half-century, our clan simply pursued
                  its own course. So did the Tzimisce, who copied our
                  destruction of the Antediluvian, for similar reasons, the
                  Assamites (who cravenly capitulated to the Camarilla’s
                  imposed curse), Giovanni, Ravnos and Setites remained
                  at liberty. Our elders largely continued as they had done
                  for some time, since the Courts of Blood continued to
                  function.
                  Our neonates experimented with new relations
                  with humanity.

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                  • #24
                    Addressing the original topic:

                    Hardestadt's embrace and generation are indicative of the lie he spread among Cainite society. The Generation of his childe shows the truth of the matter.

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                    • #25
                      Hardesdadt generation's and embrace's doesn't come from an in-of character source, but from the character sheet, which are out-of-character source per excellence. So It is not a lie spread by him, but a meta-information given by developers, like the number of discipline dot or the virtue ratings.

                      Technically speaking there are more out-of-character sources pointing at Hardestadt being a 5th gen (3 different character sheets from 3 different books) than out-of-character sources pointing at Pieterzoon being a 7th generation vampire.

                      It's not like the character tells you "Hey I'm a 5th gen!", It's the developers who tell you as a meta-information "Hey this guy is a 5th, use the rule accordingly". There is no difference from when the developers tell you "he has dominate 6" or "he has willpower 9".
                      Last edited by Undead rabbit; 10-16-2018, 03:29 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                        (...)
                        It's part of the reason why Hardestadt is being impersonated, at least from my perspective, because there's the implications there AREN'T a bunch of 5th generations running around Europe other than
                        (...)
                        My assumption, though, is that Hardestadt is probably not the only 5th generation Ventrue Elder running around but maybe there's like 6-7 in Europe total
                        (...)
                        Why do you mention Europe specifically, rather than Europe and North America ( and possibly also South America ? ) in regard to influential, powerful, far-reaching, and capable Vampires in the Camarilla ? Is it because Europe is outlined and described to be the Camarilla's seat of influence, power, and resources compared to North America ? Or is it because it is said or implied that the most influential and capable of the Camarilla Vampires are either literally in Europe ; or at the very least based in Europe in regard to their influence, resources, and plans ?
                        Even when considering this under some or all of these possibilities being to a large extent true, I don't think it should be said that it is solely in Europe that the most capable of the Camarilla Vampires are acting in regard to and are based in. If one assumes that it is as members of the Camarilla and within the Camarilla that they did achieve what they did, and that due to this they can act so that they will accomplish more, then it should be considered and said Europe and North America ( and maybe also South America ) in regard to those Vampires and their influence, capabilities, and accomplishments. After all, the Camarilla is present and strong in North America as well.
                        ( I am not sure about South America, in which V:tM books is there any information in regard to this continent ? )

                        Or did you write it as just Europe because you considered those Vampires as having their influence and capabilities based on them being members of their Clans ? In regard to this, I think what I wrote above about Europe and North America being linked in regard to influence, capabilities, and resources is also correct in regard to the Clans of the Camarilla Vampires that you mentioned.

                        Or did you write it as only Europe because you took into account both - those Vampires being members of the Camarilla, and them being members of their Clans - in regard to considering their influences and capabilities ? In this case, I think that what I wrote above also applies.

                        Or maybe you wrote it as solely Europe for some other reasons ( or a single reason ) ? If so, could you tell them ?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post

                          Why do you mention Europe specifically, rather than Europe and North America ( and possibly also South America ? ) in regard to influential, powerful, far-reaching, and capable Vampires in the Camarilla ? Is it because Europe is outlined and described to be the Camarilla's seat of influence, power, and resources compared to North America ? Or is it because it is said or implied that the most influential and capable of the Camarilla Vampires are either literally in Europe ; or at the very least based in Europe in regard to their influence, resources, and plans ?
                          Even when considering this under some or all of these possibilities being to a large extent true, I don't think it should be said that it is solely in Europe that the most capable of the Camarilla Vampires are acting in regard to and are based in. If one assumes that it is as members of the Camarilla and within the Camarilla that they did achieve what they did, and that due to this they can act so that they will accomplish more, then it should be considered and said Europe and North America ( and maybe also South America ) in regard to those Vampires and their influence, capabilities, and accomplishments. After all, the Camarilla is present and strong in North America as well.
                          ( I am not sure about South America, in which V:tM books is there any information in regard to this continent ? )

                          Or did you write it as just Europe because you considered those Vampires as having their influence and capabilities based on them being members of their Clans ? In regard to this, I think what I wrote above about Europe and North America being linked in regard to influence, capabilities, and resources is also correct in regard to the Clans of the Camarilla Vampires that you mentioned.

                          Or did you write it as only Europe because you took into account both - those Vampires being members of the Camarilla, and them being members of their Clans - in regard to considering their influences and capabilities ? In this case, I think that what I wrote above also applies.

                          Or maybe you wrote it as solely Europe for some other reasons ( or a single reason ) ? If so, could you tell them ?
                          Well, the real point is Hardestadt being impersonated only matters when he's killed and North America hasn't been discovered yet. The discovery he's an imposter in the Modern Nights wouldn't be nearly the scandal it was in the era of the Anarch Revolt.

                          However, it would undermine the entirety of the Camarilla's authority.

                          Assuming such a Beast existed.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • #28
                            In 1400, Gratiano was 270. Vykos was 398. Lugoj (referenced in Constantinople by Night) was at least 203. Moncada was 247. Vasantasena was Embraced in the 11th century, making her around 400. Ecaterina the Wise was 259. Tyler was 19. Zara Slatikov, just to cite a random less historically significant Anarch who revolted against and diablerized her sire, was 182.

                            This isn't hugely surprising. Kindred who could have been elders in their own right were still existing under their sire's thumbs. Gratiano was beholden to the millennia-old Lasombra. Vykos was beholden to the 697-year-old Symeon. Lugoj was beholden to the thousand-or-so-year-old Noriz. Moncada was beholden to the 668-year-old Sylvester. Vasantasena was beholden to the 1,031-year-old Unmada. Ecaterina the Wise didn't answer to any sire, but had long been an agitator and rabble-rouser.

                            The impetus for the Anarch Revolt was that the elders at the top of Cainite society were hoarding power and being unbearable tyrants to their childer. It didn't matter how old you got or how much you accomplished, your sire wasn't going anywhere (maybe they'd konk out for a couple centuries of torpor if you were lucky). They'd still blood bond you, use you as an all-too disposable pawn in their games, and as of the Inquisition, they'd probably throw you to the witch-hunters to save themselves.

                            Actual neonates like Tyler made up a large share (probably the biggest share) of the Anarchs, but it's not surprising there would also be a bloc of ancillae/young elders who were fed up with how their sires were treating them. They'd been paying their dues for centuries, and instead of being recognized as equals or rewarded for faithful service, the Inquisition made it all-too clear that their sires viewed them as disposable. That was the straw that broke the camel's back.

                            Young elders like Gratiano and Vykos were more experienced than neonates like Tyler, so they unsurprisingly rose to leadership roles in the Anarch Revolt. More cynical observers might dismiss the Revolt as one faction of elders ousting another faction, but that wasn't the case. While some elders like Velya, Rustovitch, Radu, Lambach Ruthven, and the Tzimisce Antediluvian recognized which way the wind was blowing and used the Revolt for their own purposes (or simply supported it to stay alive), the anger and desire for independence among the Gratianos and Vykoses was quite real. Gratiano would not exercise anywhere near the same level of authority over the clan's neonates that his sire did, and the Sabbat's vinculums would do away with the old order of elders Embracing large broods of disposable, blood bound childer.

                            It's more accurate to say the Revolt was fought by Kindred tired of elder oppression than fought solely by neonates. Neonates simply made up most of the rank and file.

                            Originally posted by Undead Rabbit
                            1) The only famous Tzimisce ancient who died in the Anarch revolt is Byelobog. Yorak died by its own, Dracon lives, Kartarirya is alive and well, Lambach lives, Triglav was killed by the Dracon. Tzimisce elders are so powerful that the Old Clan still has the eastern europe in its grip through the Oradea League; while many elders might have died the situation is way less serious than you describe.
                            Most of Cainite society likely didn't (and still doesn't) know the truth of what happened to Yorak. The only witnesses were Vlad Tepes, the Cathedral, and a coterie of railroaded PCs. PC actions are impossible to account for in canon, but Vlad Tepes likely knew better than to start spreading around "Hey, Yorak tried to Embrace me, but the Cathedral came alive and ate him before he could."

                            Yorak hadn't left the Cathedral in years, but he still remained in contact with many younger Fiends. His Cathedral was a veritable pilgrimage site for Metamorphosists. When all contact with Yorak ceased, and the Cathedral turned out to be physically gone, his clanmates probably assumed the worst and attributed it to Anarchs or rival elders rather than the Cathedral.

                            Ionache had been gone for years but was rumored destroyed by the Arpad Ventrue several centuries ago. The Dracon had retreated into the shadows. Triglav was dead. Kartarirya lived in India and was largely irrelevant to her Carpathian brethren, if they even knew she existed. The Tzimisce Antediluvian, not least of all, had supposedly met its end under Lugoj's fangs.

                            Plenty of lesser Tzimisce elders were killed or displaced by the Anarch Revolt. Noriz was killed by his childer. Radu lost his princedom. Tabak was diablerized by Vlad Tepes. Rustovitch lost his lands and childer. Symeon was diablerized by Vykos. Lambach Ruthven was press-ganged into the Sabbat. Razkoljna was diablerized by Zara Slatikov. The period was one of massive upheaval concurrent with the invasion of eastern Europe by the Assamite-backed Ottoman Turks.

                            The Tzimisce were in a very weak position, as their most powerful elders were either dead or absent at a time when their ancestral homeland was being taken over by a foreign power. The clan did not join the Camarilla and was left without any allies except other Anarchs. Many surviving Tzimisce elders (like Rustovitch) joined the Sabbat rather than be left out in the cold, leaving only a few ancient holdouts to form the Oradea League. The League's stances on mutual aid and limited Embracing was a vast change from how its members used to do things. They had previously been absolute lords of their domains, sired casually, and engaged in constant infighting with their clanmates. The League helped them to survive, but its existence was proof the old ways were done.
                            Last edited by False Epiphany; 10-17-2018, 03:00 PM.


                            Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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