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  • Undead rabbit
    started a topic The Hardestadt problem

    The Hardestadt problem

    Hardestadt's identity has been always something that bugged me a lot.




    Let's see what we know.


    (bolded text is mine)


    From Giovanni Chronicles Part 1, page 58

    "Hardestadt

    Clan: Ventrue
    Generation: 5th
    Embrace: 947 (born 904)
    Apparent Age: Early 40s
    Physical: Strenght 4, Dexterity 3, Stamina 5
    Social: Charisma 4, Manipulation 6, Appearance 5
    Mental: Perception 4, Intelligence 5, Wits 4
    Talents: Alertness 4,Athletics 2, Brawl 5, Dodge 3, Intimidation 6, Leadership 5,Subterfuge 2
    Skills: Etiquette 3, Melee 6,Ride 5, Security 2, Stealth 3, Torture 3
    Knowledges: Academics (Literature) 5, History 2, Kindred Lore 4, Law 4, Linguistics 4, Occult 2, Politics 6
    Disciplines: Auspex 2, Celerity 4, Dominate 4, Potence 4, Presence 5, Protean 2
    Backgrounds: Allies 7, Contacts 6, Elder Status 5, Herd 5, Influence 4, Military Force 4, Resources 6, Retainers 7
    Virtues: Coscience 1, Self-Control 4, Courage 5
    Morality: Humanity 2
    Willpower: 9"

    From Giovanni Chronicles Part 2, page 17

    Hardestadt Clan: Ventrue
    Generation: 5th
    Embrace: 947 (born 904)
    Apparent Age: Early 40s
    Physical: Strenght 4, Dexterity 3, Stamina 6
    Social: Charisma 5, Manipulation 6, Appearance 5
    Mental: Perception 4, Intelligence 5, Wits 4
    Talents: Alertness 4,Athletics 2, Brawl 6, Dodge 5, Intimidation 6, Leadership 6,Subterfuge 3
    Skills: Etiquette 3, Melee 6,Ride 5, Security 4, Stealth 4, Torture 4
    Knowledges: Academics (Literature) 5, History 3, Kindred Lore 5, Law 5, Linguistics 6, Occult 3, Politics 6
    Disciplines: Auspex 2, Celerity 5, Dominate 7, Fortitude 5,Necromancy 1,Potence 6, Presence 5, Protean 4
    Backgrounds: Allies 7, Contacts 6, Elder Status 5, Herd 5, Influence 4, Military Force 4, Resources 6, Retainers 7
    Virtues: Coscience 1, Self-Control 4, Courage 5
    Morality: Humanity 2
    Willpower: 9"
    From Giovanni Chronicles III, page 15

    "Hardestadt (ventrue): Despite his blustery reputation, Hardestadt is a shrewd tactician and the epitome of the political vampire. He takes the Giovanni threat seriously, but the Sabbat worries him more. He encourages characters under his sway to look out for matters of general Camarilla security, including the actions of the Giovanni, should events warrant. Hardestadt is bot the childe and descendant of a much older vampire of the same name, (the enemy of the Brujah Tyler). Hardestadt lives in Berlin, though he still mantains Castle Deverick, his italian haven. He feels contempt for those who have not lived the military life, and he feeds only from military men.

    Transylvania Chronicles 2 – Son of the Dragon, page 99
    "Hardestadt "the Elder"
    5th generation Ventrue, childe of Hardestadt the Elder
    Nature: Autocrat
    Demeanor: Director
    Embrace: 1191
    Apparent Age: Early 40s

    (...) Of course, this is all a ruse. Patricia of Bollingbroke led a small force of anarchs against Castle Hardestadt in the late 14th century, killing Hardestadt the Elder in the process. The fallen Ventrue's favored childe, Hardestadt the Younger, knew that with this dreadful turn of events, all of his sire's work was in jeopardy.
    With grim resolve, Hardestadt the Younger assumed his sire's visage through his mastery of Presence. He continued the Elder's agenda, pushing for the Camarilla as if nothing had ever happened. Obviously, Patricia is leery of "Hardestadt's" re-emergence in the Cainite world, but she has played it careful until this point."
    So, we know from 3 different sources that the Hardestadt the Younger, the one that dwelt in Europe in the XV and XVII century after the anarch revolt, the one that was present at the Thorns and so on was a 5th gen Ventrue.
    His embrace date...disputed.


    From the introduction of the Corebook , revised edition, there is page were Hardestadt (the younger I suppose) speaks with his six brothers a few moments after the attack at Castle Hardestadt in Spain and they decide that one among themshould take their father visage and identity and advance his scheme in order to unite the clans. They decide that Hardestadt the Younger, being the eldest and closest in power and age to their father, will take the mantle.
    Moments later he blood bond his brothers to him, to be sure that no one will betray the pact.




    His progeny (his?) is Jan Pieterzoon, embrace date 1723, 7th generation.

    Se we already have quite the problem, since Pieterzoon generation is too high to be a direct childe of Hardestadt.


    But then the can of worm get wormier when we want to check who the original Hardestadt was.

    Dark Age Europe says the he was a 5th gen Ventrue (so the Elder and the Younger share the same generation).

    In the Ventrue Clan Novel Jurgen says that Hardestadt has roughly the same age of Julia Antasia.

    Ventrue Clan Novel Dark ages, p. 260

    Julia Antasia is on a par with my sire in age and influence, even if Hardestadt
    would never admit it, thought Jürgen, poring over her words in
    the Letters. How has she staved off the Beast for so long?

    Antasia was embraced in 480 b.c., she is a 5th Gen Ventrue.


    As for Jurgen we know from Under a Black Cross that he was embraced in 989 and was a 6th gen Ventrue, who can only feed from soldiers he captured in battle (similar to the one of Hardestadt, but not the same).




    So how would you retcon everything?

  • False Epiphany
    replied
    In 1400, Gratiano was 270. Vykos was 398. Lugoj (referenced in Constantinople by Night) was at least 203. Moncada was 247. Vasantasena was Embraced in the 11th century, making her around 400. Ecaterina the Wise was 259. Tyler was 19. Zara Slatikov, just to cite a random less historically significant Anarch who revolted against and diablerized her sire, was 182.

    This isn't hugely surprising. Kindred who could have been elders in their own right were still existing under their sire's thumbs. Gratiano was beholden to the millennia-old Lasombra. Vykos was beholden to the 697-year-old Symeon. Lugoj was beholden to the thousand-or-so-year-old Noriz. Moncada was beholden to the 668-year-old Sylvester. Vasantasena was beholden to the 1,031-year-old Unmada. Ecaterina the Wise didn't answer to any sire, but had long been an agitator and rabble-rouser.

    The impetus for the Anarch Revolt was that the elders at the top of Cainite society were hoarding power and being unbearable tyrants to their childer. It didn't matter how old you got or how much you accomplished, your sire wasn't going anywhere (maybe they'd konk out for a couple centuries of torpor if you were lucky). They'd still blood bond you, use you as an all-too disposable pawn in their games, and as of the Inquisition, they'd probably throw you to the witch-hunters to save themselves.

    Actual neonates like Tyler made up a large share (probably the biggest share) of the Anarchs, but it's not surprising there would also be a bloc of ancillae/young elders who were fed up with how their sires were treating them. They'd been paying their dues for centuries, and instead of being recognized as equals or rewarded for faithful service, the Inquisition made it all-too clear that their sires viewed them as disposable. That was the straw that broke the camel's back.

    Young elders like Gratiano and Vykos were more experienced than neonates like Tyler, so they unsurprisingly rose to leadership roles in the Anarch Revolt. More cynical observers might dismiss the Revolt as one faction of elders ousting another faction, but that wasn't the case. While some elders like Velya, Rustovitch, Radu, Lambach Ruthven, and the Tzimisce Antediluvian recognized which way the wind was blowing and used the Revolt for their own purposes (or simply supported it to stay alive), the anger and desire for independence among the Gratianos and Vykoses was quite real. Gratiano would not exercise anywhere near the same level of authority over the clan's neonates that his sire did, and the Sabbat's vinculums would do away with the old order of elders Embracing large broods of disposable, blood bound childer.

    It's more accurate to say the Revolt was fought by Kindred tired of elder oppression than fought solely by neonates. Neonates simply made up most of the rank and file.

    Originally posted by Undead Rabbit
    1) The only famous Tzimisce ancient who died in the Anarch revolt is Byelobog. Yorak died by its own, Dracon lives, Kartarirya is alive and well, Lambach lives, Triglav was killed by the Dracon. Tzimisce elders are so powerful that the Old Clan still has the eastern europe in its grip through the Oradea League; while many elders might have died the situation is way less serious than you describe.
    Most of Cainite society likely didn't (and still doesn't) know the truth of what happened to Yorak. The only witnesses were Vlad Tepes, the Cathedral, and a coterie of railroaded PCs. PC actions are impossible to account for in canon, but Vlad Tepes likely knew better than to start spreading around "Hey, Yorak tried to Embrace me, but the Cathedral came alive and ate him before he could."

    Yorak hadn't left the Cathedral in years, but he still remained in contact with many younger Fiends. His Cathedral was a veritable pilgrimage site for Metamorphosists. When all contact with Yorak ceased, and the Cathedral turned out to be physically gone, his clanmates probably assumed the worst and attributed it to Anarchs or rival elders rather than the Cathedral.

    Ionache had been gone for years but was rumored destroyed by the Arpad Ventrue several centuries ago. The Dracon had retreated into the shadows. Triglav was dead. Kartarirya lived in India and was largely irrelevant to her Carpathian brethren, if they even knew she existed. The Tzimisce Antediluvian, not least of all, had supposedly met its end under Lugoj's fangs.

    Plenty of lesser Tzimisce elders were killed or displaced by the Anarch Revolt. Noriz was killed by his childer. Radu lost his princedom. Tabak was diablerized by Vlad Tepes. Rustovitch lost his lands and childer. Symeon was diablerized by Vykos. Lambach Ruthven was press-ganged into the Sabbat. Razkoljna was diablerized by Zara Slatikov. The period was one of massive upheaval concurrent with the invasion of eastern Europe by the Assamite-backed Ottoman Turks.

    The Tzimisce were in a very weak position, as their most powerful elders were either dead or absent at a time when their ancestral homeland was being taken over by a foreign power. The clan did not join the Camarilla and was left without any allies except other Anarchs. Many surviving Tzimisce elders (like Rustovitch) joined the Sabbat rather than be left out in the cold, leaving only a few ancient holdouts to form the Oradea League. The League's stances on mutual aid and limited Embracing was a vast change from how its members used to do things. They had previously been absolute lords of their domains, sired casually, and engaged in constant infighting with their clanmates. The League helped them to survive, but its existence was proof the old ways were done.
    Last edited by False Epiphany; 10-17-2018, 03:00 PM.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post

    Why do you mention Europe specifically, rather than Europe and North America ( and possibly also South America ? ) in regard to influential, powerful, far-reaching, and capable Vampires in the Camarilla ? Is it because Europe is outlined and described to be the Camarilla's seat of influence, power, and resources compared to North America ? Or is it because it is said or implied that the most influential and capable of the Camarilla Vampires are either literally in Europe ; or at the very least based in Europe in regard to their influence, resources, and plans ?
    Even when considering this under some or all of these possibilities being to a large extent true, I don't think it should be said that it is solely in Europe that the most capable of the Camarilla Vampires are acting in regard to and are based in. If one assumes that it is as members of the Camarilla and within the Camarilla that they did achieve what they did, and that due to this they can act so that they will accomplish more, then it should be considered and said Europe and North America ( and maybe also South America ) in regard to those Vampires and their influence, capabilities, and accomplishments. After all, the Camarilla is present and strong in North America as well.
    ( I am not sure about South America, in which V:tM books is there any information in regard to this continent ? )

    Or did you write it as just Europe because you considered those Vampires as having their influence and capabilities based on them being members of their Clans ? In regard to this, I think what I wrote above about Europe and North America being linked in regard to influence, capabilities, and resources is also correct in regard to the Clans of the Camarilla Vampires that you mentioned.

    Or did you write it as only Europe because you took into account both - those Vampires being members of the Camarilla, and them being members of their Clans - in regard to considering their influences and capabilities ? In this case, I think that what I wrote above also applies.

    Or maybe you wrote it as solely Europe for some other reasons ( or a single reason ) ? If so, could you tell them ?
    Well, the real point is Hardestadt being impersonated only matters when he's killed and North America hasn't been discovered yet. The discovery he's an imposter in the Modern Nights wouldn't be nearly the scandal it was in the era of the Anarch Revolt.

    However, it would undermine the entirety of the Camarilla's authority.

    Assuming such a Beast existed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muad'Dib
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    (...)
    It's part of the reason why Hardestadt is being impersonated, at least from my perspective, because there's the implications there AREN'T a bunch of 5th generations running around Europe other than
    (...)
    My assumption, though, is that Hardestadt is probably not the only 5th generation Ventrue Elder running around but maybe there's like 6-7 in Europe total
    (...)
    Why do you mention Europe specifically, rather than Europe and North America ( and possibly also South America ? ) in regard to influential, powerful, far-reaching, and capable Vampires in the Camarilla ? Is it because Europe is outlined and described to be the Camarilla's seat of influence, power, and resources compared to North America ? Or is it because it is said or implied that the most influential and capable of the Camarilla Vampires are either literally in Europe ; or at the very least based in Europe in regard to their influence, resources, and plans ?
    Even when considering this under some or all of these possibilities being to a large extent true, I don't think it should be said that it is solely in Europe that the most capable of the Camarilla Vampires are acting in regard to and are based in. If one assumes that it is as members of the Camarilla and within the Camarilla that they did achieve what they did, and that due to this they can act so that they will accomplish more, then it should be considered and said Europe and North America ( and maybe also South America ) in regard to those Vampires and their influence, capabilities, and accomplishments. After all, the Camarilla is present and strong in North America as well.
    ( I am not sure about South America, in which V:tM books is there any information in regard to this continent ? )

    Or did you write it as just Europe because you considered those Vampires as having their influence and capabilities based on them being members of their Clans ? In regard to this, I think what I wrote above about Europe and North America being linked in regard to influence, capabilities, and resources is also correct in regard to the Clans of the Camarilla Vampires that you mentioned.

    Or did you write it as only Europe because you took into account both - those Vampires being members of the Camarilla, and them being members of their Clans - in regard to considering their influences and capabilities ? In this case, I think that what I wrote above also applies.

    Or maybe you wrote it as solely Europe for some other reasons ( or a single reason ) ? If so, could you tell them ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Undead rabbit
    replied
    Hardesdadt generation's and embrace's doesn't come from an in-of character source, but from the character sheet, which are out-of-character source per excellence. So It is not a lie spread by him, but a meta-information given by developers, like the number of discipline dot or the virtue ratings.

    Technically speaking there are more out-of-character sources pointing at Hardestadt being a 5th gen (3 different character sheets from 3 different books) than out-of-character sources pointing at Pieterzoon being a 7th generation vampire.

    It's not like the character tells you "Hey I'm a 5th gen!", It's the developers who tell you as a meta-information "Hey this guy is a 5th, use the rule accordingly". There is no difference from when the developers tell you "he has dominate 6" or "he has willpower 9".
    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 10-16-2018, 03:29 AM.

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  • PazuzuAxelf
    replied
    Addressing the original topic:

    Hardestadt's embrace and generation are indicative of the lie he spread among Cainite society. The Generation of his childe shows the truth of the matter.

    Leave a comment:


  • Undead rabbit
    replied
    Nope, most of the Lasombra Elders just gave up and joined Gratiano when he made his pledge to the Amici Noctis. But a few died at Castle Ombro.


    Gratiano and a handful of elders descended into
    the depths to face the Antediluvian. The void-spirits
    common to the stronghold’s lower reaches were absent,
    so the descent was quick and easy. Half a dozen raiders
    fell upon the sleeping thing and drained it in minutes.
    It never awoke or stirred. When the draining finished, it
    simply crumbled into a fine black ash with tarry residue.
    There was, at the last moment, no great drama about it,
    merely the completion of a well-executed plan.





    The Clan Without Its Head
    Gratiano convened the Friends of the Night, the
    Amici Noctis as they were then, and presented them
    with the deed already done. They could condemn him.
    Indeed, he dared them to do so, taunting them that if
    they did not stop him now, he would remake the clan
    into something altogether new. The Friends listened and
    stepped aside. Some Friends chose to join with Gratiano’s
    revolt. Others kept quiet and let events unfold.




    For the next half-century, our clan simply pursued
    its own course. So did the Tzimisce, who copied our
    destruction of the Antediluvian, for similar reasons, the
    Assamites (who cravenly capitulated to the Camarilla’s
    imposed curse), Giovanni, Ravnos and Setites remained
    at liberty. Our elders largely continued as they had done
    for some time, since the Courts of Blood continued to
    function.
    Our neonates experimented with new relations
    with humanity.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
    Yeah, which ones? The elder Silvester de Ruiz being killed by the elder Luis Moncada? or the elder Noriz being killed by the elder Koban?
    The fact in the setting that the majority of the Tzimisce and Lasombra in the setting were killed by it. No, the "named" Tzimisce are low and they didn't get the Antediluvians but the entire setting is based around the idea the Lasombra Elders were driven to near extinction as well as the Tzmisice made into the Inconnu.

    Leave a comment:


  • Undead rabbit
    replied
    Yeah, which ones? The elder Silvester de Ruiz being killed by the elder Luis Moncada? or the elder Noriz being killed by the elder Koban?
    The anarch revolt was a revolt of elders against elders mostly, the young vampires were but cannon fodder.

    Of all the leaders of the anarch revolt only Tyler was young.
    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 10-15-2018, 02:57 PM.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Yes, I'm familiar with all of that. You're basically ignoring all the other deaths and destruction of Lasombra and Tzimisce Elders.

    Leave a comment:


  • Undead rabbit
    replied
    Saying that something is wrong is worth nothing without proof.



    Tzimisce Antediluvian being the mastermind behind the anarch revolt.


    Clanbook Tzimisce


    I know what history says, but I don’t believe
    its lies so easily. I knew the sycophant Lugoj, and
    he served his masters eagerly. He claims Velya and
    he discovered Kupala’s treasure in a forgotten and
    desecrated mountain monastery.
    It grew through the
    crack of the chapel floor, and degenerate creatures,
    once monks, later Tzimisce and then Kupala’s minions
    guarded it jealously. Lugoj claims they barely
    escaped with their unlives. Lies. Lugoj played the
    lackey for his master, the Eldest, and found Kupala’s
    heart only because the Eldest so guided him. I tell you
    this because Yorak shared the truth with me ages ago.

    Had Lugoj and Velya followed the flower’s winding
    veins through the crack of the monastery’s floors, they
    would have chased it into the deepest intestines of
    Yorak’s domain, into his Cathedral of Flesh.
    Why foster this duplicity when it eventually destroyed
    a score of Tzimisce, you ask? Because Kupala’s
    sacred “fire flower” was, in fact, a portion of the Eldest’s
    newest form, a precursor to the horror dwelling in
    the sewers of New York.
    Don’t believe me, but ask
    Lambach what he witnessed in the sewers, and watch
    him stutter. The Eldest allowed Lugoj to take of itself
    so that it could shatter any former alliances shared by
    its progeny. It imparted its seeds in new generations of
    Tzimisce, binding them to it alone when it so chose.
    Ironically, the Tzimisce shared of their blood in a
    subsequent ritus, thus turning the Sabbat (as opposed
    to the clan alone) into the Eldest’s harvest.
    And when
    the thing beneath New York grows hungry, who do
    you think it will summon to feast upon?


    Clanbook Lasombra


    Gratiano leading the elders against the Antediluvian.

    Gratiano and a handful of elders descended into
    the depths to face the Antediluvian. The void-spirits
    common to the stronghold’s lower reaches were absent,
    so the descent was quick and easy. Half a dozen raiders
    fell upon the sleeping thing and drained it in minutes.
    It never awoke or stirred. When the draining finished, it
    simply crumbled into a fine black ash with tarry residue.
    There was, at the last moment, no great drama about it,
    merely the completion of a well-executed plan.
    Gratiano getting the blessing of the remaining elders.

    The Clan Without Its Head
    Gratiano convened the Friends of the Night, the
    Amici Noctis as they were then, and presented them
    with the deed already done. They could condemn him.
    Indeed, he dared them to do so, taunting them that if
    they did not stop him now, he would remake the clan
    into something altogether new. The Friends listened and
    stepped aside. Some Friends chose to join with Gratiano’s
    revolt. Others kept quiet and let events unfold.

    The only 4th gen that died at Castle Ombro is Khanom Mere (Tepelit died later).

    And Gratiano was mind-fucked either by the Antediluvian either by one of the 4th gen.

    Lasombra Clan Novel

    “You’ll let me know if I miss one, of course. First, Gratiano
    may have gone insane and developed some sort of delusion
    that keeps him from seeing the cracks in his story. Second,
    he may have been dominated by someone else. Any third
    options?” He waited more than a minute. The room was
    very quiet, with only the sound of Angelica’s breathing and
    the rustle of turning pages to break the silence. “I thought
    not. So.”
    He went to the windows and opened the drapes, to
    look out over parking lots and warehouses. ‘‘I don’t really
    know how we can proceed to check out either possibility.
    Certainly he won’t give any of us another audience. I suppose
    we can ask Timofiev to make a query. Does anyone think
    we can count on Gratiano heeding a cardinal? No? Me
    neither. But unless we think of something else, we’ll have
    to see if we or the cardinal can come up with a plausible
    story that warrants some repeated scrutiny. ‘We think you’re
    crazy’ probably won’t do it, so anyone who gets a better idea,
    let me know.”
    The drapes swung shut as he moved away, tugged by
    small tendrils of animated shadow. Lucita realized that he
    was showing off, and took note as he continued talking,
    now facing the others. “If he’s being mind controlled, we
    need to know by whom, and how far it goes.
    “The pool of candidates is small, I think. It has to be
    someone of his own generation or closer to Caine, and there
    just aren’t that many. Thirteen Antediluvians, unless there
    are some we don’t know about, and their childer. How many
    of Lasombra’s childer were still active before the revolt?”
    He stopped and looked at Lucita. She’d detected the slight
    slowing in his speech as he approached the question and
    wasn’t caught off guard.
    “At the Castle of Shadows, three. Montano. Khanom
    Mehr. Tepelit.” She thought for a moment. ‘‘I once delivered
    a message to a fourth, Blue Eye, off in the steppes, but he
    hadn’t been to the castle in two hundred years and I do not
    believe Gratiano ever encountered him.”
    “You realize how little physical distance matters for this
    purpose.” Andrew sound altogether unconfident. Lucita
    wished she could savor the experience.
    ‘‘I do. But keep in mind that although it’s possible for
    one of that generation to affect others far away, to change
    the mind of one of their own generation might well require
    close-up confrontation. Let’s set Blue Eye aside for now and
    concentrate on the others.” Andrew shrugged; Lucita took
    it as sufficient assent for now. “Montano, as we all know,
    fled. I presume he’s in torpor in some very obscure comer of
    the world right now. If anyone wants to search, I suggest
    starting with his part of eastern Africa and with Australia.
    Tepelit perished. I have a source among the Assamites”-
    what a stale way to refer to your friend, she told herself, and
    answered with, if she still is-“who worked with his killer.
    She has artifacts from his haven, and I’m convinced of her
    claims. Khanom Mehr perished in the attack, I believe. We
    have multiple accounts of her claiming to submit and then
    trying to destroy her captors.”
    “There are others, of course,” Roxana said. “Boukephos
    has had dealings with the Friends of the Night quite recently,
    and there’s Sybil. The American one, that is.. .”
    Barry cut her off. ‘‘I mean those who were there the
    night of the great revolt.”
    There was another moment of ghastly silence. Lucita
    spoke again. “Yes. That is, if we can trust any of the
    accounts.”
    “So do you want to suggest a starting point?” Conrad
    stepped in before Andrew could. The sire had her privileges,
    Lucita noted.
    “Yes, actually, I do. Konstantin wasn’t the only isolated
    dweller I know.” She paused. “You destroyed him, didn’t
    you?”
    “Yes,” Andrew nodded. “He held out well enough, but
    in the end he gave us the lead that let us follow you across
    the Atlantic.”
    “Did you.. .”
    “Oh, yes,” he smiled. ‘‘I drank him dry, and am thereby
    enriched. At some point I’ll have to account for the act to
    the Friends of the Night, but I think that they’ll have no
    problem with the wisdom or appropriateness of my conduct.”"

    As for Cappadocians

    Lore of the Bloodlines

    Our Antediluvian is the important factor. We despise the Giovanni for slaying Cappadocius.
    This may appear contrary to our hate for the Clan founder, but listen;
    Cappadocius
    was no fool. Every step of Giovanni betrayal was utterly
    orchestrated by Cappadocius and his underlings.

    You ask “why?” A lesser scholar would attribute such
    self-sacrifice to insanity, but Cappadocius’ mind was on
    a higher plane than we mere immortals. Do not try to
    understand the workings of a god.
    If you must hear my theory, it’s a simple one: Cappadocius reviled us
    as much as we loathed him. He was frustrated
    by our failures; in a great convulsion, he decided he would
    start anew through the Familia Giovanni. His death was
    a small part of the plan. Cappadocius lives on through fragments.
    One within Augustus Giovanni, another within
    the Shadowlands, and the final bound somewhere in the
    Skinlands.
    We do not hate the Giovanni for their act of murder,
    or for their theft of our vengeance, but for their being
    unwitting tools of Cappadocius. The Camarilla likewise.

    All are ignorant to the alien behavior of their founders;
    intelligences beyond comprehension. The Sabbat — despite

    Embrace dates of the leader of the Revolt can be find on the wikia.


    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 10-15-2018, 02:42 PM.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
    Nope,

    1) The only famous Tzimisce ancient who died in the Anarch revolt is Byelobog. Yorak died by its own, Dracon lives, Kartarirya is alive and well, Lambach lives, Triglav was killed by the Dracon. Tzimisce elders are so powerful that the Old Clan still has the eastern europe in its grip through the Oradea League; while many elders might have died the situation is way less serious than you describe.

    2) Tzimisce anarchs did just what the Antedeluvian wanted them to do.

    3)Cappadocius killed its clan, not the Giovanni; Augustus just did what Cappadocius decided he had to do.

    4) Most Lasombra elders converted and joined Gratiano, just a few died at Castle Ombro.

    5)Lastly you are forgetting that the Anarch revolt has been done by...elders.

    Vykos was 400 years, Velya is a Metuselah, Lugoj was at least 700 years old, Koban 500 years old, Moncada 400 years old, Elisier de Polanco 200 years old, Augustus and Claudius 400 years old, Vitel was a 5th gen methuselah,Jalan-Aajav 300 years old, Izhim Ur-Bhaal 6000 years old, Dastur Anosh 2000 years old, and so on.

    There was no "young vampires" revolt. There was turn over among elders.
    This is just wrong.

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  • Undead rabbit
    replied
    Nope,

    1) The only famous Tzimisce ancient who died in the Anarch revolt is Byelobog. Yorak died by its own, Dracon lives, Kartarirya is alive and well, Lambach lives, Triglav was killed by the Dracon. Tzimisce elders are so powerful that the Old Clan still has the eastern europe in its grip through the Oradea League; while many elders might have died the situation is way less serious than you describe.

    2) Tzimisce anarchs did just what the Antedeluvian wanted them to do.

    3)Cappadocius killed its clan, not the Giovanni; Augustus just did what Cappadocius decided he had to do.

    4) Most Lasombra elders converted and joined Gratiano, just a few died at Castle Ombro.

    5)Lastly you are forgetting that the Anarch revolt has been done by...elders.

    Vykos was 400 years, Velya is a Metuselah, Lugoj was at least 700 years old, Koban 500 years old, Moncada 400 years old, Elisier de Polanco 200 years old, Augustus and Claudius 400 years old, Vitel was a 5th gen methuselah,Jalan-Aajav 300 years old, Izhim Ur-Bhaal 6000 years old, Dastur Anosh 2000 years old, Rustovich 600 years old and so on.

    There was no "young vampires" revolt. There was turn over among elders.
    Of the leader of the revolution only Tyler was not an elder.
    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 10-15-2018, 02:14 PM.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
    And why? They are both alive and well.
    Hahahahahahahaha

    No seriously, their Elders were all but annihilated and the Anarchs danced over their ashes.

    The Cappadochians also were annihilated fifty years before the Convention of Thorns. Not the Anarch revolt but young vampires wiping out old.

    So, yeah, the Anarchs crushed the elders.

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  • Undead rabbit
    replied
    And why? They are both alive and well.

    Cappadocians have not been destroyed neither by the Inquisition neither by the Anarchs .
    Even more, the downfall of the cappadocians was decided decided by Cappa himself.

    Same for the Tzimisce.
    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 10-15-2018, 01:56 PM.

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