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  • The Danava and the Ventrue

    What are some thoughts on how and when the Danava Ventrue split happened? Could it have been the Ventrue were a group more concerned with political/military power rather then spiritual? In the 2nd city do you think only the Danava existed? Do you think some of the Ventrue we know older then Mithras, the 4th gen, do you think any of the listed ones are actually Danava?

    Do you think the Danava are mistaken?

    In the 2nd city do you think Sadhana and Dur-an-ki existed in their earliest forms? Or do you think it was one tradition? Like do you think what Ur-shulgi practiced was a protoblood magic or functionally dur-an-ki, and that was different then say Veddartha and Sadhana?


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    I think the modern day names of the Clans have been indicated to just be nicknames that stuck with rare exceptions.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
      I think the modern day names of the Clans have been indicated to just be nicknames that stuck with rare exceptions.
      Yeah but I mean in D20 they show the Danava as being a separate Bloodline with a different discipline and Weakness spread. Like they have in Clan Sadhana.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #4
        The Ventrue believe that the 4th Generation ancestor of a particular line influences that line's outlook through the mystical properties of the Blood such as Alexander's line having a gift for oratory but also a tendency for loose tempers and fits of Frenzy or Mithras' line being unassailable both in court or the battlefield.

        The Davana could simply be an extreme case of this with the tendencies of their 4th Generation ncestor conspiring with their periods of isolation to turn them into a Bloodline.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
          The Ventrue believe that the 4th Generation ancestor of a particular line influences that line's outlook through the mystical properties of the Blood such as Alexander's line having a gift for oratory but also a tendency for loose tempers and fits of Frenzy or Mithras' line being unassailable both in court or the battlefield.

          The Davana could simply be an extreme case of this with the tendencies of their 4th Generation ncestor conspiring with their periods of isolation to turn them into a Bloodline.
          They seem to believe though that the Ventrue are the offshoot. Perhaps after a time Veddartha became broader in his outlook and choose to Embrace Childer as Ventrue rather then Danava? Or some of his earliest childer took to the Europe and caste aside their old ways?


          It is a time for great deeds!

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          • #6
            My personal head-canon:

            In the First City, Veddhartha was embraced as a curator of the material culture. He was responsible for the maintenance and preservation of the physical objects belonging to the state, ranging from the small and portable (eg: jewelry, archives, textiles, chemicals, and simple memorabilia) to the large and immobile (eg: temples, roads, monuments, waterworks, and fortifications). This made Veddhartha's role a mix of the department of public works and the chancellor of the exchequer.

            The original discipline mix was Auspex, Dominate, and Fortitude. Fortitude fits conceptually in the role of stolid maintainer of objects. Dominate allowed for the easy organization of the necessary work-crews and administrators. Auspex enhanced inspections of existing objects, and investigations into newly arrived treasures.

            As a personal interest, Veddhartha collected unusual objects from faraway lands. This interest led him to make contact with many cultures, through a trade network spread across the pre-historic world. Through these, he became aware of the activities of powerful and malevolent beings (such as Earthbound Demons, the Wyrm, Aeons, Oracles, Fae Lords, Yama Kings, and so forth), from the psychic impressions they had left on objects with which they had had contact... as well as simpler evidence: letters, records, weapons, and ritual objects.

            Veddhartha decided the existence of such beings must be brought to the attention of Caine, and the Elders of the Second Generation, but they waved it off as paranoia. "Surely, none could threaten the City of Caine." Veddhartha was not reassured and decided the preservation of the City demanded he expand his portfolio to monitoring the Beings' activities. He did so without permission from his superiors, though they had not explicitly forbidden it. He adapted his trade network into an information and intelligence operation.

            This network supplied him occult knowledge and supernatural objects from across Europe, Asia, and Africa. He set-up a sort of research facility to reverse-engineer the wonders he discovered, and secretly ghouled several mages to assist in his studies.

            Then the flood hit, and his research and his beloved City was destroyed. The predictable story of rebellion and recrimination followed. Veddhartha had warned the Elders of great dangers in the world, but they didn't listen, and now all was lost. At first, he pretended to defend his Elders from the other rebels, but when the time came he stood with his own generation and even led them in destroying their foolish ancestors. His last minute betrayal and knowledge of the Elders' defenses were indispensable to the rebels' success.

            It was, however, a pyrrhic victory, for the City itself was still destroyed... even more finally with the battle damage.

            He entered a deep depression and wandered the world, following the faint after-image of his trading network. It led him to a community of ascetics in South Central India, in what is now the state of Telanagana. He studied with the monks and learned their magic, serving as a patron and protector. It was here that he first made a childe, Danu. The monks were appalled that he would pass his curse to others, and a woman at that, so they asked him to leave them. Veddhartha agreed, and left Danu behind to found the Danava, embraced from the monks. It is she who refined her sire's studies of Blood Sorcery into a clan discipline, and, centuries later, incorporated local religious practices into the discipline of Sadhana.

            Again wandering, Veddhartha sought reunion with the other vampires of the world, and convinced each to attend to the building of a Second City. This would not be so much a permanent residence for the Third generation -except for those who desired such companionship- rather it would serve as a sort of ritual space, hermitage, and place of pilgrimage. As long as this Second City stood, the descendants of Caine would always be able to stay in touch with one another.

            He led the city, in a manner of speaking. It was like herding cats. This is where he first embraced a large brood. His joy and pride at the newly rebuilt city colored his childer's experiences and replaced Auspex with Presence. To keep the peace among them, he ruled that no two of his brood could keep overlapping domains or herds.

            As is the way of such things, the Second City also fell. Veddhartha's brood, known among themselves as Veddharthajaya, spread outward. Some joined with the Danava. Others, made their way to the Fertile Crescent. One made an alliance with mages descended from their sire's ghouls from the First City; this Methuselah replaced Dominate with Necromancy and established a line in Africa.

            Veddhartha slipped in and out of torpor for millennia. He returned to the study of the Secret Masters, and blocked their machinations where he could. With assistance from the Danava and the African witches, he discovered the wraithly remnants of the First City in the Tempest. From there, he prodded younger vampires to form a sect that would oppose the Secret Masters where they could.

            Eventually, he found it impossible to sate his hunger at all, and performed a ritual to reduce his power to that of one of his own childer. This allowed him to remain active. He entered a self-imposed exile, however, knowing his former rivals would welcome a chance to destroy him in his weakened state.

            The Vaddharthajaya fell to bickering and internal strife during the Late Bronze Age collapse. The survivors named themselves the "Ventru", a name somehow derived from the coterie's refuge in Illium. Once things had settled down, the Ventru entered a phase of rapid expansion and acquisition of power. They developed an internal system of discipline to rival any mortal army. Many seized power as god-kings across the Eastern Mediterranean.

            Veddhartha began to fear his broods' hubris with the rise of Rome and destruction of Carthage. He desired that his get should be successful, yes, but not swelled with pride. Were they seeking to become Secret Masters in their own right? He quietly sabotaged their efforts where he could, and nurtured friendly rivals to their power. Had he not, they would likely have over-run the other clans, certainly precipitating a war among the Antedeluvians.

            The formation of the Camarilla was the last straw. He encouraged powerful elders, like Mithras, to keep the sect at arm's length. Veddhartha embraced a small brood to oppose the sect. These retained his original disciplines of Auspex, Dominate, and Fortitude, and so were ironically the closest to the clan's traditions, while also the newest of it's lines. They mostly sided with the Sabbat, though, a few went Autarkis.

            He worked to reinvigorate the hidden sect in Enoch, and provided covert support to the Sabbat. The Camarilla must be brought to heel, or destroyed.

            The Danava, loyal as always, may prove to be Veddhartha's greatest weapon. (He has tried to nurture sorcery in his clan before, mostly in Mithras' line via Cretheus. It never really seemed to take, with trained sorcerers not breeding true.) Veddhartha is, right now, seeking Danu to open talks about expanding the Danava as a counter-weight to the Ventrue. He doubts it will, as she has always been disdainful of temporal politics.

            Maybe, however, now that he can approach her as a peer...

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            • #7
              I'd say that the Danava are the offshot of the 4th gen vampire named Veddartha (an indian name), sire of Maltheas and Mithras.

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              • #8
                Yeah Veddartha is the most common name for Ventrue thorough, and Mithras is 4th gen.


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #9
                  And very much like your post Nosimpleway! I can see using a lot of that.


                  It is a time for great deeds!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                    Yeah Veddartha is the most common name for Ventrue thorough, and Mithras is 4th gen.
                    But Veddartha was also the sire of Maltheas, who is a 5th gen, impliying Mithras became a 4th gen through diablerie.

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                    • #11
                      The implication is all with you though. Authors have been wrong before, and other solutions given is there was a 4th Gen who also went by Veddartha, possibly even an Avatar like situation where the real Veddartha uses that body for business. I mean we do have stories and Artifacts referring to the Antediluvian Veddartha.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

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                      • #12
                        I prefer to believe that the authors made a mistake. I remember that one adventure in "Lair of the Hidden" has your coterie discover a tablet carved by the Ventrue Antediluvian and they give his name as "Veddartha"

                        With that being said, Beckett's Diary deliberately chose to omit the name of Mithras' grandsire for a reason. Could be he was originally 5th Gen.

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                        • #13
                          As far as I'm concerned, they're a cultural offshoot of the Ventrue and nothing more. What you have to remember, is they were originally conceived at a time when White Wolf decided everything has to be different and special, everything gets its own bloodline especially vampires of other cultures, and everybody gets a unique and special form of blood magic. OPP just kind of did the best they could with what they were given. You really don't have to look further than the list of paths available to Sadhana practitioners out of BSTC, to see WW's end goal, that being "power creep".

                          Different options and discipline spreads are cool, and blood magic is always fun, but if everyone is special and unique in their own metagamey and munchkin-friendly ways, then nobody's special. The Danava being what they were, is a symptom of a bigger disease in WW's later published works, and it's best to regard them as such and contextualize them (when necessary) in a chronicle in the most narratively appropriate way.

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                          • #14
                            It made sense to me, and BSTC was by far my favorite Book on blood Sorcery. It made Assamite Sorcery make sense for one. Sadhana is solid, I mean yeah teleporting is a big deal, but I’m fine with it, Tremere have it too.

                            It’s an old part of the world it makes sense.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              It made sense to me, and BSTC was by far my favorite Book on blood Sorcery. It made Assamite Sorcery make sense for one. Sadhana is solid, I mean yeah teleporting is a big deal, but I’m fine with it, Tremere have it too.

                              It’s an old part of the world it makes sense.
                              I liked the fluff and the mechanics for non-Thaumaturgy blood sorceries, but the level of power creep and "vampion" factor left much to be desired.

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