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The Danava and the Ventrue

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  • #16
    Personally, I like the flavour and options presented.
    It didn't make sense that there wasn't Thaumaturgy in other clans.

    Just remember though, it's rare in those clans; and EVERY Tremere has Thaumaturgy and a system for mentors and occult Libraries

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Illithid View Post
      Personally, I like the flavour and options presented.
      It didn't make sense that there wasn't Thaumaturgy in other clans.

      Just remember though, it's rare in those clans; and EVERY Tremere has Thaumaturgy and a system for mentors and occult Libraries
      Well, strictly speaking, there are options in place for those with every sorcerous lineage and practice, especially for the fact the knowledge has to come from somewhere. It just may not be an older vampire with more skill in the sorcery teaching the student, nor a traditional book- or scroll-filled library. Hell, in the modern nights game where I'm playing a Telyav, her sire's worthless when it comes to teaching her Thaumaturgy, but she has a (nature) spirit mentor and a rather complex pact with it, as granularized through merits and flaws (mostly flaws), and very specific requirements to maintain her Humanity, Conscience, and Self-Control ratings. Hell, I'm also working on raising her Contacts, Allies, Influence, and Fame as applied to spirits and the Umbra.

      But unlike every one of the other fanged douchebags in the coterie, she can go traipsing through lupine country and probably make her way out unscathed.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Theodrim View Post

        Well, strictly speaking, there are options in place for those with every sorcerous lineage and practice, especially for the fact the knowledge has to come from somewhere. It just may not be an older vampire with more skill in the sorcery teaching the student, nor a traditional book- or scroll-filled library. Hell, in the modern nights game where I'm playing a Telyav, her sire's worthless when it comes to teaching her Thaumaturgy, but she has a (nature) spirit mentor and a rather complex pact with it, as granularized through merits and flaws (mostly flaws), and very specific requirements to maintain her Humanity, Conscience, and Self-Control ratings. Hell, I'm also working on raising her Contacts, Allies, Influence, and Fame as applied to spirits and the Umbra.

        But unlike every one of the other fanged douchebags in the coterie, she can go traipsing through lupine country and probably make her way out unscathed.
        Absolutely there are options for everyone else. My Point is that the entire Tremere clan has built itself around the discipline, making it available to even neonates, and if they're not allowed to learn something yet; having a reasonable process for getting permissions or rank.
        And yet again, every member of the CLAN has availability, it's not just a rare and esoteric bloodline.

        Telyav mostly fall into being a "Tremere" for this purpose.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Theodrim View Post

          I liked the fluff and the mechanics for non-Thaumaturgy blood sorceries, but the level of power creep and "vampion" factor left much to be desired.
          Can you explain what do you consider to be the "vampion factor" in regard to blood magic, and in general ?
          Last edited by Muad'Dib; 10-17-2018, 08:06 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Illithid View Post
            Absolutely there are options for everyone else. My Point is that the entire Tremere clan has built itself around the discipline, making it available to even neonates, and if they're not allowed to learn something yet; having a reasonable process for getting permissions or rank.
            And yet again, every member of the CLAN has availability, it's not just a rare and esoteric bloodline.

            Telyav mostly fall into being a "Tremere" for this purpose.
            I'm aware -- my point in turn is considering those resources in exclusively "traditional" terms, can skew a player's or ST's perception of those forms of blood sorcery, who has access to them and for what reasons, and how they're practiced over generations. Which, in turn, can influence perception of how common, or easily learned or practiced, they really are.

            I can't remember which book it was off-hand -- one of the later Revised edition books, to be sure -- that pointed out younger Tzimisce, especially in the Americas, were learning Koldunic sorcery...but not from the Old World and transplant elders through whom the tradition had been barely surviving. They were learning it directly from spirits.
            Last edited by Theodrim; 10-17-2018, 08:00 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
              What are some thoughts on how and when the Danava Ventrue split happened? Could it have been the Ventrue were a group more concerned with political/military power rather then spiritual? In the 2nd city do you think only the Danava existed? Do you think some of the Ventrue we know older then Mithras, the 4th gen, do you think any of the listed ones are actually Danava?

              Do you think the Danava are mistaken?

              In the 2nd city do you think Sadhana and Dur-an-ki existed in their earliest forms? Or do you think it was one tradition? Like do you think what Ur-shulgi practiced was a protoblood magic or functionally dur-an-ki, and that was different then say Veddartha and Sadhana?
              Few people know, but there were Indo-Roman trade relations, and Romans and Greeks frequented the ancient country of Tamilakan, in the southern tip of the Indian subcontinent. That's why I rewrote the Danava to state they started as a handful of Ventrue neophytes from the Roman Empire, until one of them diablerized a local 4th Generation Vampire. Nowadays, the Indian states of Kerala and Tamil Nadu are Danava territories, with basically all the local domains under the bloodline's control. They also consider the whole of Srilanka as their turf.

              The Danava blood sorcerers developed their arts after their colonization of the trading ports.

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              • #22
                I like the idea the Danava are older then 5k though.


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                  The implication is all with you though. Authors have been wrong before, and other solutions given is there was a 4th Gen who also went by Veddartha, possibly even an Avatar like situation where the real Veddartha uses that body for business. I mean we do have stories and Artifacts referring to the Antediluvian Veddartha.
                  Please not this again. Most of Transylvania Chronicles II NPC sires were messed up on purpose (both Hardestadt "the Younger" and Maltheas).

                  - Saga

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                  • #24
                    I usually consider one of the eldest of the 4th generation Ventrue to be Balthazar (or "Belshazzar" mentioned in DAC and EV). I consider him the progenitor of the Ventrue from India, including Bindusara's (him being an actual historical figure) sire, and I also consider Balthazar to be adept at blood magic.

                    - Saga

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                    • #25
                      Wouldn't any Ventrue worthy of the name want to destroy any Danava if he or she knew about them, seeing them as impure and thus unworthy of the blood? Basically, say a Danava leaves India and enters into a Camarilla or Sabbat-controlled city with a decent Ventrue population. Isn't that basically suicide?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                        My personal head-canon:

                        In the First City, Veddhartha was embraced as a curator of the material culture. He was responsible for the maintenance and preservation of the physical objects belonging to the state, ranging from the small and portable (eg: jewelry, archives, textiles, chemicals, and simple memorabilia) to the large and immobile (eg: temples, roads, monuments, waterworks, and fortifications). This made Veddhartha's role a mix of the department of public works and the chancellor of the exchequer.

                        The original discipline mix was Auspex, Dominate, and Fortitude. Fortitude fits conceptually in the role of stolid maintainer of objects. Dominate allowed for the easy organization of the necessary work-crews and administrators. Auspex enhanced inspections of existing objects, and investigations into newly arrived treasures.

                        As a personal interest, Veddhartha collected unusual objects from faraway lands. This interest led him to make contact with many cultures, through a trade network spread across the pre-historic world. Through these, he became aware of the activities of powerful and malevolent beings (such as Earthbound Demons, the Wyrm, Aeons, Oracles, Fae Lords, Yama Kings, and so forth), from the psychic impressions they had left on objects with which they had had contact... as well as simpler evidence: letters, records, weapons, and ritual objects.

                        Veddhartha decided the existence of such beings must be brought to the attention of Caine, and the Elders of the Second Generation, but they waved it off as paranoia. "Surely, none could threaten the City of Caine." Veddhartha was not reassured and decided the preservation of the City demanded he expand his portfolio to monitoring the Beings' activities. He did so without permission from his superiors, though they had not explicitly forbidden it. He adapted his trade network into an information and intelligence operation.

                        This network supplied him occult knowledge and supernatural objects from across Europe, Asia, and Africa. He set-up a sort of research facility to reverse-engineer the wonders he discovered, and secretly ghouled several mages to assist in his studies.

                        Then the flood hit, and his research and his beloved City was destroyed. The predictable story of rebellion and recrimination followed. Veddhartha had warned the Elders of great dangers in the world, but they didn't listen, and now all was lost. At first, he pretended to defend his Elders from the other rebels, but when the time came he stood with his own generation and even led them in destroying their foolish ancestors. His last minute betrayal and knowledge of the Elders' defenses were indispensable to the rebels' success.

                        It was, however, a pyrrhic victory, for the City itself was still destroyed... even more finally with the battle damage.

                        He entered a deep depression and wandered the world, following the faint after-image of his trading network. It led him to a community of ascetics in South Central India, in what is now the state of Telanagana. He studied with the monks and learned their magic, serving as a patron and protector. It was here that he first made a childe, Danu. The monks were appalled that he would pass his curse to others, and a woman at that, so they asked him to leave them. Veddhartha agreed, and left Danu behind to found the Danava, embraced from the monks. It is she who refined her sire's studies of Blood Sorcery into a clan discipline, and, centuries later, incorporated local religious practices into the discipline of Sadhana.

                        Again wandering, Veddhartha sought reunion with the other vampires of the world, and convinced each to attend to the building of a Second City. This would not be so much a permanent residence for the Third generation -except for those who desired such companionship- rather it would serve as a sort of ritual space, hermitage, and place of pilgrimage. As long as this Second City stood, the descendants of Caine would always be able to stay in touch with one another.

                        He led the city, in a manner of speaking. It was like herding cats. This is where he first embraced a large brood. His joy and pride at the newly rebuilt city colored his childer's experiences and replaced Auspex with Presence. To keep the peace among them, he ruled that no two of his brood could keep overlapping domains or herds.

                        As is the way of such things, the Second City also fell. Veddhartha's brood, known among themselves as Veddharthajaya, spread outward. Some joined with the Danava. Others, made their way to the Fertile Crescent. One made an alliance with mages descended from their sire's ghouls from the First City; this Methuselah replaced Dominate with Necromancy and established a line in Africa.

                        Veddhartha slipped in and out of torpor for millennia. He returned to the study of the Secret Masters, and blocked their machinations where he could. With assistance from the Danava and the African witches, he discovered the wraithly remnants of the First City in the Tempest. From there, he prodded younger vampires to form a sect that would oppose the Secret Masters where they could.

                        Eventually, he found it impossible to sate his hunger at all, and performed a ritual to reduce his power to that of one of his own childer. This allowed him to remain active. He entered a self-imposed exile, however, knowing his former rivals would welcome a chance to destroy him in his weakened state.

                        The Vaddharthajaya fell to bickering and internal strife during the Late Bronze Age collapse. The survivors named themselves the "Ventru", a name somehow derived from the coterie's refuge in Illium. Once things had settled down, the Ventru entered a phase of rapid expansion and acquisition of power. They developed an internal system of discipline to rival any mortal army. Many seized power as god-kings across the Eastern Mediterranean.

                        Veddhartha began to fear his broods' hubris with the rise of Rome and destruction of Carthage. He desired that his get should be successful, yes, but not swelled with pride. Were they seeking to become Secret Masters in their own right? He quietly sabotaged their efforts where he could, and nurtured friendly rivals to their power. Had he not, they would likely have over-run the other clans, certainly precipitating a war among the Antedeluvians.

                        The formation of the Camarilla was the last straw. He encouraged powerful elders, like Mithras, to keep the sect at arm's length. Veddhartha embraced a small brood to oppose the sect. These retained his original disciplines of Auspex, Dominate, and Fortitude, and so were ironically the closest to the clan's traditions, while also the newest of it's lines. They mostly sided with the Sabbat, though, a few went Autarkis.

                        He worked to reinvigorate the hidden sect in Enoch, and provided covert support to the Sabbat. The Camarilla must be brought to heel, or destroyed.

                        The Danava, loyal as always, may prove to be Veddhartha's greatest weapon. (He has tried to nurture sorcery in his clan before, mostly in Mithras' line via Cretheus. It never really seemed to take, with trained sorcerers not breeding true.) Veddhartha is, right now, seeking Danu to open talks about expanding the Danava as a counter-weight to the Ventrue. He doubts it will, as she has always been disdainful of temporal politics.

                        Maybe, however, now that he can approach her as a peer...

                        Great head-canon. Would love to read any head-canon you might have about some of the other antes.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Lord Vil View Post
                          Wouldn't any Ventrue worthy of the name want to destroy any Danava if he or she knew about them, seeing them as impure and thus unworthy of the blood? Basically, say a Danava leaves India and enters into a Camarilla or Sabbat-controlled city with a decent Ventrue population. Isn't that basically suicide?
                          Why? What should they care if other Ventrue lines are "impure"? If the Danava are so "degenerate", that just means they're beneath contempt.

                          Maybe if we were talking about the Ventrue Antitribu, we'd have something. But they see the main Clan as being wrong for cultural reasons, and in the sense that the Ventrue aren't kings and knights, but petty merchants and corporate suits. If anything, I'd imagine the Ventrue Antitribu would get along much better with the Danava, what with both being part of traditions that are both noble and religious. (You can't say the Antitribu haven't learned to accept the Sabbat's theological bent by now).

                          As for the main Clan, I'd imagine they'd respond to the Danava in a less militant, and more pragmatic way. They didn't last this long as a great Clan if they prosecuted every fight they could have gotten into, if there was a way around it. That's why the Omen Wars didn't result in Clans Ventrue and Tzimisce exterminating each other, why the Ventrue made a treaty with the Giovanni, and why every Ventrue Anarch hasn't been hunted down like a dog.

                          That's not how the Clan of Kings rolls. That's Tremere behavior. The Ventrue are above all that. They cut deals, if they think they can profit more from collaboration. And you'd need to be terminally incompetent to not think of ways to profit from "cousins" that have blood magic. Forget exterminating the Danava. I'm wondering why more Ventrue aren't clamoring to make alliances "for the greater good of those who share blood".


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                            What are some thoughts on how and when the Danava Ventrue split happened? Could it have been the Ventrue were a group more concerned with political/military power rather then spiritual? In the 2nd city do you think only the Danava existed? Do you think some of the Ventrue we know older then Mithras, the 4th gen, do you think any of the listed ones are actually Danava?

                            Do you think the Danava are mistaken?

                            In the 2nd city do you think Sadhana and Dur-an-ki existed in their earliest forms? Or do you think it was one tradition? Like do you think what Ur-shulgi practiced was a protoblood magic or functionally dur-an-ki, and that was different then say Veddartha and Sadhana?
                            Its impossible not to be first considered after DA Companion, where it is mentioned that Balthazar came from India to battle Shaitan at the Mediterranean.

                            - Saga

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post

                              But Veddartha was also the sire of Maltheas, who is a 5th gen, impliying Mithras became a 4th gen through diablerie.

                              Personally, i have always much prefered this.

                              Seriously, we are speaking of a vampire who has played sun god for millenia, maintaning a personal blood cult while being the prince of a major camarilla-allied metropolis for centuries or more. Being a 5th gen that upgrades himself through diablerie and manipulates generations of younger Ventrue into believing he's a childe of the antediluvian, in fact going so far as to use his (destroyed) sire's name for it? That kind insanely brazen & twisted dishonest manipulation of history & myth is completely in character for Mithras!

                              So yes, in my games the Danavas are pretty much self-deluded dupes - and possibly runaway childer of Mithras too, what brings some interesting vicissitudes to the british presence in the indian subcontinent, might be said...
                              Last edited by Baaldam; 05-29-2019, 09:36 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Saga View Post

                                Please not this again. Most of Transylvania Chronicles II NPC sires were messed up on purpose (both Hardestadt "the Younger" and Maltheas).

                                - Saga

                                Hardestadt was a mess long before TC, harkening back to his appearance in Last Supper.

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