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V20 - switching from humanity to path of the honorable accord

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  • V20 - switching from humanity to path of the honorable accord

    Hello All,
    I'm in a game where it has become apparent that my humanity 7 Tremere is chaffing at the restrictions inherent with maintaining such high humanity.
    The chronicle we're playing places our party at a heavy structural disadvantage against Sabbat forces that hide behind human gangs all the while having several flesh crafted abominations between the party and the target that also happens to be (we think) more powerful than us.
    Using the Camarilla structure is out as they're either in hiding or not willing to move.

    So we'll have to go full on the offensive and while we aim to prevent collateral damage, I don't see how we could neutralize our targets without killing them.

    If we survive, I expect my character to have lost quite a few humanity levels down to 3 or 4 and I believe it would be coherent to have him switch to the path of honorable accord.

    So, how would a young Cam Tremere go about it ?
    Is it coherent to have such a character follow that path? Would you allow it?

    My character is struggling with the need to act decisively (as a human he was a soldier in ww2) and the fear of loosing himself to the Beast. How likely would it be for him to transition directly to the path of honorable accord because of this struggle without the loss of humanity first?

    Thanks for the answers 😊

  • #2
    So, how would a young Cam Tremere go about it ?
    Probably have to find a high ranking Camarilla elder on the Path and go about getting them to teach them.
    Is it coherent to have such a character follow that path?
    Not sure what you mean by coherent in this context. Any character can pursue a Path if they feel it suits them. I'd say it might be a bit premature, though, given they're still at 7 Humanity.
    The Tremere and Camarilla would both probably frown, if not actively work against it. Especially since the Path has certain ethical demands of the group (typically sect) which might place some conflict of interest.
    Would you allow it?
    Maybe. It'd probably depend on how they came about deciding on a Path more, learning about it, etc. But I wouldn't say it'd be fine without the loss of Humanity. Plays importantly into how the transition works.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Monalfie View Post

      The Tremere and Camarilla would both probably frown, if not actively work against it.
      Is there anything written and described in V:tM books in regard to Tremere Vampires following Roads or Paths of Enlightenment ?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
        Is there anything written and described in V:tM books in regard to Tremere Vampires following Roads or Paths of Enlightenment ?

        IIRC the Camarilla as a whole has banned Paths in favor of Humanity. Though I suspect that most, if not all, of the Kindred that predate the sect still maintain the Path/Road they had before the foundation of the Camarilla.

        I've played in games where we had a version of Honorable Accord specifically tailored to the Tremere. Basicly change "your sect/pack" to "your group" and it works rather well tbh.





        English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
          Is there anything written and described in V:tM books in regard to Tremere Vampires following Roads or Paths of Enlightenment ?
          Nothing explicitly that I can think of off-hand. Just inferring from their general controlling nature/hierarchy and being Camarilla aligned.

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          • #6
            I see a few things really worth considering. Firstly, as mentioned, it should be rather difficult to find a mentor withing the Camarilla willing to teach. Both because that would out that individual and because Paths are rare in the Camarilla.

            That Path is also a bastardized Path of Kings that plays highly into Sabbat values, if not the Sect's functions. Might be a better option to look at Kings/Chivalry. Maybe, for slightly less modification.

            Another huge aspect to consider is that the point of the Path is loyalty to a person or thing. ESPECIALLY for a Tremere, this will be a big deal, because they will be torn between serving Coterie, City, Sect, and Clan, and the Path does not really allow that well, like it does in the Sabbat, (minus Clan). It should not be a case that serving the Coterie also serves the Prince and City, and thus also the Camarilla. And for Tremere, these should also be oppossed to serving the Clan at least some of the time. Honorable Accord does not allow for the "just don't get caught doing it" clause the Tremere work off of.

            Just some things to consider. Also, generally speaking, switching Paths normally requires dropping the first one's rating very low before adopting the new. It is not like an even swap, after character creation. So it may not actually solve your issue.

            Alternatively, you might consider Scorched Heart, or possibly Self-Focus. They may also be a bit more accessable and allowed in the Tremere and Camarilla, even for a non-Elder.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Beckett View Post
              I see a few things really worth considering. Firstly, as mentioned, it should be rather difficult to find a mentor withing the Camarilla willing to teach. Both because that would out that individual and because Paths are rare in the Camarilla.

              That Path is also a bastardized Path of Kings that plays highly into Sabbat values, if not the Sect's functions. Might be a better option to look at Kings/Chivalry. Maybe, for slightly less modification.

              Another huge aspect to consider is that the point of the Path is loyalty to a person or thing. ESPECIALLY for a Tremere, this will be a big deal, because they will be torn between serving Coterie, City, Sect, and Clan, and the Path does not really allow that well, like it does in the Sabbat, (minus Clan). It should not be a case that serving the Coterie also serves the Prince and City, and thus also the Camarilla. And for Tremere, these should also be oppossed to serving the Clan at least some of the time. Honorable Accord does not allow for the "just don't get caught doing it" clause the Tremere work off of.

              Just some things to consider. Also, generally speaking, switching Paths normally requires dropping the first one's rating very low before adopting the new. It is not like an even swap, after character creation. So it may not actually solve your issue.

              Alternatively, you might consider Scorched Heart, or possibly Self-Focus. They may also be a bit more accessable and allowed in the Tremere and Camarilla, even for a non-Elder.
              I didn't see this quite like this. My character is quite young as a vampire and has secretly reconnected with a surviving niece some years before the current chronicle and that is a big can of worms because I'd see it as the person to whom he would be ultimately loyal.

              The Tremere have a blood bond on him but they also allowed his sire to be destroyed because she tried to protect a human from the cruel whims of an elder. So no love lost there.

              Besides, the clan also punished regent Sturbridge to whom my PC and his sire were ultimately loyal. The Camarilla has also been useless in dealing with the current threat so my character doesn't feel all that indebted to them.

              The main issue would indeed be to find a willing teacher as, unfortunately, the current situation in the chronicle and the actions my PC will take will take care of the humanity adjustment.

              But indeed the Path of Scorched Heart could be interesting and a better option. Thank you for pointing it out to me.

              Comment


              • #8
                With the Disclaimer, that I love playing characters on Roads; I think you're Tremere is stuck.

                *Paths are mostly a creation of the Sabbat (and some independant clans who transitioned from Roads to Paths without fluff saying why) and they are designed as such.
                *You're also playing a Camarilla game, it's (usually) a big focus on the sliding of humanity, and what you do to stop it before you fall in that pit of wassail, in a Camarilla game, having a path changes that struggle to a non-issue.
                *Because of the Tremere being disliked by pretty much everyone in the dark ages until they bribed their way into the Camarilla - where a big part is, "Let's keep humanity" the entire clan didn't really have access to the support structures of Priests of the Roads or people willing to help them (Plus, an apprentice that turns into a wight is just a research subject for another Tremere with more control)
                *If the extended Camarilla know you're on a path, the only thing they can reasosnably assume is that you've gone Sabbat in some way.

                All of that being said, some rare Tremere seem to have been on Road of Kinds, and it works for keeping you loyal to the clan, I'd recommend talking to the ST about having a "Path" with the details in the road.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                  With the Disclaimer, that I love playing characters on Roads; I think you're Tremere is stuck.

                  *Paths are mostly a creation of the Sabbat (and some independant clans who transitioned from Roads to Paths without fluff saying why) and they are designed as such.
                  *You're also playing a Camarilla game, it's (usually) a big focus on the sliding of humanity, and what you do to stop it before you fall in that pit of wassail, in a Camarilla game, having a path changes that struggle to a non-issue.
                  *Because of the Tremere being disliked by pretty much everyone in the dark ages until they bribed their way into the Camarilla - where a big part is, "Let's keep humanity" the entire clan didn't really have access to the support structures of Priests of the Roads or people willing to help them (Plus, an apprentice that turns into a wight is just a research subject for another Tremere with more control)
                  *If the extended Camarilla know you're on a path, the only thing they can reasosnably assume is that you've gone Sabbat in some way.

                  All of that being said, some rare Tremere seem to have been on Road of Kinds, and it works for keeping you loyal to the clan, I'd recommend talking to the ST about having a "Path" with the details in the road.
                  Damn, this complicates things and raises a number of questions:

                  - I thought paths or roads were an internalized system to manage the Beast that replaces the Humanity ratting so how would anyone (besides the one that taught him said path) would know? Does it show somehow?

                  I understand that the path of honorable accord would be complicated to keep a secret as it requires public demonstrations of loyalty but after Beckett's recommendation, I've looked at the path of the Scorched Heart and that seems quite compatible with others just interpreting any behavior change as Tremere idiosyncrasies.

                  - my PC is quite rational and more than a bit annoyed at Clan and Sect for what he perceives to be immobilism in dealing with urgent matters such as the Sabbat gaining more and more power while building an army in the city's outskirts (flesh crafted war ghouls among other things) and the coterie is under immediate threat so his humanity will slide prompting a search for an alternative path on his part.

                  Could this build a case for a switch to the path of the scorched heart? I'll check with the ST but what do you think?

                  Finally, if my PC stays on Humanity, how would you go about restoring some?

                  Thanks again.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Beckett View Post

                    Alternatively, you might consider Scorched Heart, or possibly Self-Focus. They may also be a bit more accessable and allowed in the Tremere and Camarilla, even for a non-Elder.
                    Wouldn't these two Paths of Enlightenment still be practically just as ( to say it lightly ) discouraged in the Camarilla as other Paths of Enlightenment are ; because they, as Paths of Enlightenment, ( as far as I remember ) are considered by many Vampires in the Camarilla to be contradictory to following Humanity, and supporting or aiding Vampires who follow Humanity ?
                    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 10-18-2018, 02:52 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                      Alternatively, you might consider Scorched Heart, or possibly Self-Focus. They may also be a bit more accessable and allowed in the Tremere and Camarilla, even for a non-Elder.
                      Scorched Heart is almost exclusivly practised by the True Brujah (or at least the True Hand which they belong to) isn't it? How would that be "more accessable" for a Camarilla Tremere?
                      Path of Self Focus (at least accorning to the WW wiki) has "Being Blood Bound" as the lvl 1 Sin. It would be impossible for a Tremere to get on to that path, let alone maintain it.





                      English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cadmiumcadamium View Post

                        Scorched Heart is almost exclusivly practised by the True Brujah (or at least the True Hand which they belong to) isn't it? How would that be "more accessable" for a Camarilla Tremere?
                        Some Vampires in the Tal'Mahe'Ra - if not most ? I don't remember this part of what I read about the Tal'Mahe'Ra Sect - are, to various extents and/or on the surface, members of the Camarilla and the Sabbat. Thus it is entirely possible, and not at all unlikely, that a Tremere Vampire who is in the Camarilla to meet and befriend ( or for example collaborate with in regard to a matter ) a True Brujah Vampire who mingles with and cooperates with Camarilla Vampires ( or a True Brujah Vampire who is a member of the Camarilla ) ; who could initiate her or him into the Path of the Scorched Heart, and teach her or him about it.
                        Last edited by Muad'Dib; 10-18-2018, 03:37 AM.

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                        • #13
                          I understand that the concensus is mostly that my PC is stuck on humanity except for a fortuitous encounter with a (cooperative if not friendly) true brujah.
                          So my character will loose humanity but allow me to reiterate my question :
                          how would you allow a PC to regain humanity?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Demonstrating enough good faith actions trying to make up for or show understanding of what caused them to lose dots in the first place.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                              Demonstrating enough good faith actions trying to make up for or show understanding of what caused them to lose dots in the first place.
                              Does the PC have to show remorse/contrition about the specific situation that led to the loss of humanity or could it be done by trying to atone in other ways?

                              In this specific case, the Sabbat is building an army and preparing (so we believe) a pretty nasty curse/spell that will make things very bad for their enemies and for humans in general.

                              To add to this, they managed to bring a lethal curse on the coterie that will destroy all members unless we take out the one who sent it.

                              Of course, he is also protected by a spell that more or less requires us to go through his underlings in a terminal fashion to have the most remote hope of taking him out. Did I mention that they hide behind a shitload of human followers, have a couple Voghz for each underling, that they murdered a close human ally and that all members of the coterie are almost newbie 13gen vamps?

                              So I don't believe that any of the members of the coterie will feel very remorseful if we do manage to terminate the enemy and main underlings.

                              We don't want collateral damage, so the only way is to try and plan to take each underling out surgically and for that we'll be damned and loose a bunch of humanity. Because planned murder and justifications is the Beast talking...

                              Most likely my PC will try to shield the other members of the coterie inasmuch as possible because of his nature and take the hit humanity wise.

                              So as a player I'm trying to understand how to roleplay the situation because my PC will try to gain some humanity back but will most likely fail. Hence my interest in the paths.

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