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V20 - switching from humanity to path of the honorable accord

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  • #31
    Originally posted by pang4 View Post
    Actually, there is precedent for character noticing you have abandoned your humanity. To Quote the V20 Core Rulebook, p314:



    Path of the Scorched Heart uses Conviction, which is why this passage is relevant.

    So once you abandon the ability to feel bad about moral tansgressions, you abandon the ability to even relate to humanity. You have become a Vampire in truth, completely inhuman. It wouldn't be hard for your fellow vampires, not to mention any mortals you interact with, to notice this shift in mentality and morality.
    Thanks for the reference. I didn't know this system existed.

    Since it's a metaphysical thing it doesn't have to be logical., fine.

    However, by the same standard, I don't see how any Sabbat vampire could ever pass as human.

    This path of the Scorched heart states that the vampire abandons emotion in order to give less freedom to the Beast and somehow it makes it more noticeable? Or is it the absence of humanity that is noticed?

    Anyway, if it's in the book, it's in the book. It doesn't deter me from thinking that it would be the way to go for my character if he were to drop really low in humanity and was unable to raise it back up.

    It would give a good example of the application of the "A monster I am, lest a monster I become" line. 😎

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    • #32
      1. Most Sabbat CANNOT pass for human. Anyone who interacts with them begin to see the monster real soon. It is hard to hide something you are proud of. By the same token, a person following the Path to the Scorched Heart takes pride in their lack of emotion, and views it as their greatest asset.

      2. It becomes real easy to notice a person without emotions. They don't smile. They don't scowl. They don't display any of the signs of living we are used to. Doing these things aren't just inconvenient for the Path follower, they are a moral failure. In many ways, cut yourself off from human interactions.

      3. A person who uses Conviction does not believe in atonement. At all. This means they, by and large, cannot have friends who don't think the same way. Being truly unapologetic, only ever moving forward, completing your own goals... You can do it to the detriment of others without issue, because there IS NO detriment to others. If they fail to move forward, it is their failure, not yours. You can see how this would alienate your coterie in a hurry.


      Lastly, I'd like to point out that you CAN maintain your humanity through the ordeal in front of you. In fact, I hope you do. The horror you feel can be a catalyst for change, a driving force to destroy the villain. Before, they were just a generic bad guy, but now it's personal. They made you kill innocent people. They forced scars upon you that you will never get over. And that is something you should not, cannot, forgive or forget. That's the path of humanity. Of regret, remorse, and righteous anger at a world gone insane.


      Furthermore, I believe Carthage should be destroyed.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by DuncanD View Post
        However, by the same standard, I don't see how any Sabbat vampire could ever pass as human.
        Most Sabbat aren't on Paths, they're just low Humanity.
        Paths are exclusive. Few Kindred are initiatied onto the secrets of the Paths. Most vampires - even those of the independent Clans and the Sabbat - follow the ways of Humanity; they simply tend to degenerate to very low levels over time.
        V20 p313

        This path of the Scorched heart states that the vampire abandons emotion in order to give less freedom to the Beast and somehow it makes it more noticeable? Or is it the absence of humanity that is noticed?
        Absence of Humanity, from how it reads.

        Originally posted by pang4 View Post
        Most Sabbat CANNOT pass for human.
        I'd repeat the same thing. Most Sabbat aren't on Paths. So that aspect becomes moot.

        By the same token, a person following the Path to the Scorched Heart takes pride in their lack of emotion, and views it as their greatest asset.
        Well, the first sin for Scorched is acknowledging your emotions. The second is making decisions based on emotion. And the first outlined aspect of the path is to quelch emotion. Probably not taking much pride.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by pang4 View Post
          1. Most Sabbat CANNOT pass for human. Anyone who interacts with them begin to see the monster real soon. It is hard to hide something you are proud of. By the same token, a person following the Path to the Scorched Heart takes pride in their lack of emotion, and views it as their greatest asset.

          2. It becomes real easy to notice a person without emotions. They don't smile. They don't scowl. They don't display any of the signs of living we are used to. Doing these things aren't just inconvenient for the Path follower, they are a moral failure. In many ways, cut yourself off from human interactions.

          3. A person who uses Conviction does not believe in atonement. At all. This means they, by and large, cannot have friends who don't think the same way. Being truly unapologetic, only ever moving forward, completing your own goals... You can do it to the detriment of others without issue, because there IS NO detriment to others. If they fail to move forward, it is their failure, not yours. You can see how this would alienate your coterie in a hurry.


          Lastly, I'd like to point out that you CAN maintain your humanity through the ordeal in front of you. In fact, I hope you do. The horror you feel can be a catalyst for change, a driving force to destroy the villain. Before, they were just a generic bad guy, but now it's personal. They made you kill innocent people. They forced scars upon you that you will never get over. And that is something you should not, cannot, forgive or forget. That's the path of humanity. Of regret, remorse, and righteous anger at a world gone insane.
          I didn't know of the path of the Scorched heart before it was pointed out to me. I don't think it's in the core book and I went to.: http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Path...Scorched_Heart to check it out and I don't see this path as you do.

          True, it is inhuman when compared to the statistical norm but that doesn't mean it has to be inhumane.

          Even human psychopathic behavior can be camouflaged but socially correct behavior, whatever the subject may or may not be feeling.

          To me, this path is a bit like the Vulcans in Star Trek. Can they behave like utter assholes? Yes! Does than mean that they are nihilistic assholes? I don't believe so.

          Just because a character strives to be devoid of emotion does not mean they are not capable of socially accepted behavior.

          True they would not feels the pangs of conscience but that does not mean they are not capable of behaving in a beneficial manner to their environment.
          Even if it's because a society where they are seen as beneficial is one where they can exist more easily.

          Last but certainly not least, you make an excellent point about humanity in your last paragraph and I wholeheartedly agree with you on human level.

          However, it has been pointed out to me that the PC loose humanity no matter the motivation or worthiness of the cause that led to the action that humanity loss.

          Unless I badly misunderstood the mechanics, righteous fury will not shield my character from loss of humanity and since he felt righteous in his behavior, how would he feel repentant for it?

          I understand that he might be able to regain some humanity by doing proverbial "good works" but he has been behaving quite humanely for the entire chronicle and hasn't budged from his starting humanity rating. The game predominantly favors loss of humanity over gain. Which is fair as we are supposed to portray inhuman vampiric monsters.

          At this point, it's wait and see. We'll see how go the next sessions and what's the aftermath. I don't plan to request a change to a path unless it's narativelly organic for my character to do so and then it will depend on my ST.

          Who, I must add, is not a fan of any morality rating that isn't humanity.

          Many thanks for your very well argued response. 👍😁😎

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by DuncanD View Post

            However, it has been pointed out to me that the PC loose humanity no matter the motivation or worthiness of the cause that led to the action that humanity loss.

            Unless I badly misunderstood the mechanics, righteous fury will not shield my character from loss of humanity and since he felt righteous in his behavior, how would he feel repentant for it?
            Righteour fury won't shield you from loss of humanity, that's true. However, your Conscience stat will. Succeed those rolls, and your HUmanity is safe. You will feel awful about what you've done, and THAT can be the catalyst for power.

            How often does your ST ask for Morality rolls? Are they calling for them mid-combat, or only at the end of stories?
            I usually call for Morality rolls during downtime, or in times when characters have time to reflect on their actions. Only then should conscience play a roll.


            Furthermore, I believe Carthage should be destroyed.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
              Most Sabbat aren't on Paths, they're just low Humanity.
              V20 p313

              Absence of Humanity, from how it reads.

              I'd repeat the same thing. Most Sabbat aren't on Paths. So that aspect becomes moot.

              Well, the first sin for Scorched is acknowledging your emotions. The second is making decisions based on emotion. And the first outlined aspect of the path is to quelch emotion. Probably not taking much pride.
              I really didn't think that my PC would be going down the way of the Paths...

              Hence why I missed so much info in the book. Sorry 🙏

              As I responded to Pang4, my character is set to stay on the humanity track until it's not narativelly logical for him to do so.

              This post stemmed from the fact that I didn't see a way to continue playing this character without compromising the core of his personna if he stayed on humanity.

              Thanks to all the contributions, I realise that both my vision of the humanity mechanic and of the nature of mechanic governing the different paths were flawed.

              At this point, my PC will stay on humanity unless the chronicle goes somewhere that motivates a switch.

              Thanks for the help! 😁😎👍

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by pang4 View Post

                Righteour fury won't shield you from loss of humanity, that's true. However, your Conscience stat will. Succeed those rolls, and your HUmanity is safe. You will feel awful about what you've done, and THAT can be the catalyst for power.

                How often does your ST ask for Morality rolls? Are they calling for them mid-combat, or only at the end of stories?
                I usually call for Morality rolls during downtime, or in times when characters have time to reflect on their actions. Only then should conscience play a roll.
                Yes, I understand.

                However, my character and the coterie he's in are planning an assault to neutralise and if need be terminate several kindred in order to reach and kill a more powerful one.

                Without going into the specifics I can say that the members of the coterie are pretty unremorsefull in taking these guys out (they think they'll be doing themselves, Humanity and kindred à huge favor). We'll try to take them alive to deliver them to the Camarilla and have some info gathering but if it can't be done, we'll, that's unlife..

                Mechanically speaking, our ST asks for degeneration rolls mostly at the end of scenes or after a combat situation is resolved.

                So we'll see how it pans out 🤔😎

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by DuncanD View Post
                  However, it has been pointed out to me that the PC loose humanity no matter the motivation or worthiness of the cause that led to the action that humanity loss.*
                  That is not entirerly true. It is true in the sense that you do still risk it, but motivations, circumstances, Nature, and other things can and do modify the rolls. It is really up to you and the ST, but if you truely believe you are preventing worse things from happening, and also do not kill others easily, it is perfectly reasonable to have the Degeneration Roll's Diff be 5 or 6, rather than 8. You still need to roll, and could still fail, while success indicates you feel shitty about it, and would not normally do these things to other in different circumstances.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Beckett View Post

                    That is not entirerly true. It is true in the sense that you do still risk it, but motivations, circumstances, Nature, and other things can and do modify the rolls. It is really up to you and the ST, but if you truely believe you are preventing worse things from happening, and also do not kill others easily, it is perfectly reasonable to have the Degeneration Roll's Diff be 5 or 6, rather than 8. You still need to roll, and could still fail, while success indicates you feel shitty about it, and would not normally do these things to other in different circumstances.
                    That's another thing I didn't think about : the ST adjusting the difficulty of the rolls. Damn.. It just makes sense. Thank you for pointing it out to me.

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