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  • V20 - combat damage

    Hello all,

    How would you determine if a sniper rifle shot to the head of an elder vampire would be enough to take it out or at least to take him down?

    In the same vein, if my tremere PC with movement of the mind 4 were to plant a magnesium or potassium (or any alkaline metal) sliver (or stake) in the body of an elder vampire, would it ignite? If so what wouldbe the damage?

    Also if the same Tremere PC would face à Vozhd abomination, since he could lift it with MoM 4, could he throw it? If not, how high would he have to lift it if he were to then drop it headfirst into the ground in order to kill it or at least take it out of action?

    Thank you! 😎

  • #2
    Sniper rifles generally deal 7 dice of damage per WoD Combat + any extra dice from the hit roll but do bashing damage unless it's a targeted shot. Head shots are +2 difficulty and +1 damage die bonus. If the head shot hits, it's lethal damage.

    You may wish to use something pyrophoric like white potassium instead. Alkali metals tend to burn very slowly on contact with the level of moisture on human skin and wouldn't likely ignite. I'm assuming vampires are less "damp" than human. Cesium will react more explosively but you'd need to get cesium at which point why aren't you just shooting?

    Lifting anything beyond 100 feet in WoD is largely pointless as that's the point of terminal velocity in the system allocates 10 dice of bashing damage and that's a max.
    Moving something that doesn't want to be moved will be a contested willpower roll.

    Comment


    • #3
      How would you determine if a sniper rifle shot to the head of an elder vampire would be enough to take it out or at least to take him down?
      - Determine the sniper rifles damage, the dice rolls, soak, if the vampire has any active disciplines to help out.

      In the same vein, if my tremere PC with movement of the mind 4 were to plant a magnesium or potassium (or any alkaline metal) sliver (or stake) in the body of an elder vampire, would it ignite? If so what would be the damage?
      No idea.

      Also if the same Tremere PC would face à Vozhd abomination, since he could lift it with MoM 4, could he throw it?
      - Well, Movement of the Mind four is 500 Lbs. and five is 1,000 Lbs. Wouldn't surprise me if some Vozhd were over those weights (sizing can be inconsistent in some versions, but V20 core gives them at 15+ ghouls melded). Assuming the specific ones aren't as large, sure you could throw it, that's what four allows explicitly.
      If not, how high would he have to lift it if he were to then drop it headfirst into the ground in order to kill it or at least take it out of action?
      The Storyteller rolls one die of bashing damage for every ten feet (3 meters), rounded down. This can be soaked normally. Certain falls (like on the head, assumedly) can be lethal instead of bashing at ST discretion. This damage maxes at ten dice for terminal velocity and auto-translates to lethal.

      Vozhd stats are given in V20 core (might be additional ones in Lore of the Clans or the Black Hand book, I forget). But Core has six Stamina and Fortitude four. You can do the math on the odds.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by PhillyCuriosity View Post
        Sniper rifles generally deal 7 dice of damage per WoD Combat + any extra dice from the hit roll but do bashing damage unless it's a targeted shot. Head shots are +2 difficulty and +1 damage die bonus. If the head shot hits, it's lethal damage.

        You may wish to use something pyrophoric like white potassium instead. Alkali metals tend to burn very slowly on contact with the level of moisture on human skin and wouldn't likely ignite. I'm assuming vampires are less "damp" than human. Cesium will react more explosively but you'd need to get cesium at which point why aren't you just shooting?

        Lifting anything beyond 100 feet in WoD is largely pointless as that's the point of terminal velocity in the system allocates 10 dice of bashing damage and that's a max.
        Moving something that doesn't want to be moved will be a contested willpower roll.
        Thanks !

        I'm looking for alternatives because there are only two guns for four coterie players and i'm trying to optimize battle potential and also to try and surprise the antagonists. I thought about Cesium but that would mean dominating someone at an hospital and stealing something that was being used to heal people. So a potential loss of humanity for that as well as for the planned murder.

        Besides, i was thinking about shaping the sodium or the magnesium as a pointy thing so that MoM 4 could make it penetrate the skin and potentially ignite with blood. Would it ?

        My PC has quite a high willpower and the target of the lift and crash would be Vozhd which i don't think to have that much willpower, don't they ?

        Anyway, i'm open to suggestions. Since the coterie is very under-powered when compared to the opposition and that we don't want to do collateral damage, we have to fight smart. Or try to at least.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
          - Determine the sniper rifles damage, the dice rolls, soak, if the vampire has any active disciplines to help out.


          No idea.


          - Well, Movement of the Mind four is 500 Lbs. and five is 1,000 Lbs. Wouldn't surprise me if some Vozhd were over those weights (sizing can be inconsistent in some versions, but V20 core gives them at 15+ ghouls melded). Assuming the specific ones aren't as large, sure you could throw it, that's what four allows explicitly.

          The Storyteller rolls one die of bashing damage for every ten feet (3 meters), rounded down. This can be soaked normally. Certain falls (like on the head, assumedly) can be lethal instead of bashing at ST discretion. This damage maxes at ten dice for terminal velocity and auto-translates to lethal.

          Vozhd stats are given in V20 core (might be additional ones in Lore of the Clans or the Black Hand book, I forget). But Core has six Stamina and Fortitude four. You can do the math on the odds.
          Thank you.

          Did'nt see that in the book... Damn, so that's a wash. The Vozhd we're facing seem to be like maybe 2.5m tall and i've no idea if that would mean a weigh over 250kg but i think our ST might rule that it is... So the only option would be to blind it or cripple its mobility...

          Anyway, that's going to solve my issue about playing a low humanity vampire. There will be no issue since the character will be paste
          Last edited by DuncanD; 10-18-2018, 03:44 PM. Reason: typos

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DuncanD View Post

            Thanks !

            Besides, i was thinking about shaping the sodium or the magnesium as a pointy thing so that MoM 4 could make it penetrate the skin and potentially ignite with blood. Would it ?
            Sodium wouldn't ignite. What ignites first is the hydrogen liberated in the reaction and there just wouldn't be that much. Something like napalm or liquid oxygen would much better.

            Originally posted by DuncanD View Post

            Anyway, i'm open to suggestions. Since the coterie is very under-powered when compared to the opposition and that we don't want to do collateral damage, we have to fight smart. Or try to at least.
            It's hard to beat weapons with automatic fire and specialized ammunition or explosives. Fireball ammo adds 2 to damage dice and on an automatic shotgun that can do something like 24 dice of damage in a round. Theo Bell has his signature shotgun for a reason. WoD Combat has more gun and explosives rules than you can shake a stick at.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by PhillyCuriosity View Post
              Sodium wouldn't ignite. What ignites first is the hydrogen liberated in the reaction and there just wouldn't be that much. Something like napalm or liquid oxygen would much better.


              It's hard to beat weapons with automatic fire and specialized ammunition or explosives. Fireball ammo adds 2 to damage dice and on an automatic shotgun that can do something like 24 dice of damage in a round. Theo Bell has his signature shotgun for a reason. WoD Combat has more gun and explosives rules than you can shake a stick at.
              Yeah but since the chronicle is set in Europe, guns are few and far between and no specialty ammo. Basically the Sabbat owns the local black market scene.
              We're pretty much in a "challenging situation" .

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DuncanD View Post

                Yeah but since the chronicle is set in Europe, guns are few and far between and no specialty ammo. Basically the Sabbat owns the local black market scene.
                We're pretty much in a "challenging situation" .
                If you can't get specialty ammo how are you getting sodium? But a road flare would be a good source of magnesium which will burn around 475C which is quite toasty.

                Petrol would be your friend then. Movement of the mind to remotely ignite a fuel source.

                I don't know if grilling is popular, but a natural gas cylinder for a barbecue grill would also make a pretty good explosive.

                Construction equipment could make reasonable work of things depending on the size of things.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by PhillyCuriosity View Post

                  If you can't get specialty ammo how are you getting sodium? But a road flare would be a good source of magnesium which will burn around 475C which is quite toasty.

                  Petrol would be your friend then. Movement of the mind to remotely ignite a fuel source.

                  I don't know if grilling is popular, but a natural gas cylinder for a barbecue grill would also make a pretty good explosive.

                  Construction equipment could make reasonable work of things depending on the size of things.
                  Sodium is probably used in several chemical industries and it's also used in high school chemistry classes (in small pieces taken from a bigger one).

                  Thank for the idea about flares. It's a very good one and it would make an awesome distraction as well. Which could allow a stealth staking via MoM 4. 😁

                  I had though about construction equipment but the issue is that there will most likely be a shitload of human followers who may or may not be there of their own free will. So we were trying a way to manage the attack as surgically as possible if not totally by stealth.

                  Hence we're trying not to use explosives but I don't know how long our good intentions will last. So thanks for the gaz canister idea, though I don't know how common they would be as I've personally ever only used charcoal barbecues.

                  I also thought about making homebrewed napalm from kerosene and loading it into a sprayer or super soaker but it might be to thick to be sprayed that way. Or maybe using said homebrewed napalm to stealthyly spray it on the enemy from above but the smell would be telling.

                  Also à strong acid might be useful as many industries use that king of compounds as cleaning agents. The same could be said for strong basic fluids but I'm not sure if it would be very effective against vozhd (to much mass) or vamps as these could soak the damage?

                  The biggest issue are the several layers of defenses that collapse into one united front once a threat is located. And the fact that we can't go full destruction mode otherwise our characters won't have enough humanity left to prevent going nuts.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thinking a bit more rationally about it, how would vamps and vozhd fare against tactical tear gas? They don't breathe so that's out but they still have eyes so would it partially blind them?

                    Since vamps don't have the biological processes that generate tears to protect the eyes from the agressive compounds in tear gas, wouldn't their eyes be more damaged than mortals that would be blinded but protected by their tears? What would happen to vozhd's eyes?

                    What about crowd control (or fire truck) water cannon with a reservoir filled with water blessed by a priest?

                    If you have other suggestions, I'll be grateful 😁

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You seem to have a Vozhd problem. Let's think of solutions.

                      1. Don't fight it at all. Circumvent it, go for its master. That is the person giving it direction, after all. Without a master, A Vozhd is just a dumb giant. Shiet, if you killed its master, you could bloodbind it yourself, and now YOU are the master.

                      2. Use Dominate. A Vozhd is still a ghoul after all, albeit a gigantic one. From here, there are infinite ways to mess the Vozhd up, from making it go fetch you its master to making it sit nicely while you sort out the grown-up stuff. Once you catch it in your gaze, it is putty in your hands. Best of all, Tzimisce don't have Dominate, meaning it can't wrest control of its beast back from you (Old Clan Tzimisce rules! Dominate over Viscissitude every day!)

                      3. If you must engage, kite it. I could see from your post that you have Movement of the Mind, so just levitate above the damn thing. At best it can throw stuff at you, and if you can find a way to blind it (pepper spray FTW) you can take pot shots from the air until kingdom come.

                      4. Mess with its habitat or food supply. A Vozhd is HUGE, and even a mad Tzimisce can't risk the Mazquerade unless they want a literal torch-weilding mob at their door. Buy up property, send eviction notices, and watch the BBEG struggle to move two tonnes of flesh-monstrosity unseen. In a similar vein, feeding such a beast is no easy task. That is a weakness you can target, through bureaucracy, increased police surveillance, or other means. At worst, you are taking time and resources from the master. At best, the master will think the Vozhd more trouble than it's worth, and take care of the problem for you.

                      _____________________________


                      You mention on several occasions that Vozhd do not breathe, have biological processes, and other such. Yes they do. They are GHOULS. Massive, twisted, fleshcrafted ghouls. They are never embraced in the creation process, and God help anyone who tries to embrace it. The blood cost to wake each night alone would be unheard of. No, Vozhd are mortal, and everyone should be grateful (especially its master) that they are.

                      _____________________________

                      And finally, remember that a Vozhd is not practical in the final nights. They were great in the Dark Ages, where they were siege engines on legs. But they are almost useless on the city streets where the wars are fought these nights. Where will you hide it? Where will you use it without IMMEDIETELY cluing mortals into the extistence of the supernatural?
                      Last edited by pang4; 10-19-2018, 04:20 AM.


                      Furthermore, I believe Carthage should be destroyed.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by pang4 View Post
                        You seem to have a Vozhd problem. Let's think of solutions.

                        1. Don't fight it at all. Circumvent it, go for its master. That is the person giving it direction, after all. Without a master, A Vozhd is just a dumb giant. Shiet, if you killed its master, you could bloodbind it yourself, and now YOU are the master.

                        2. Use Dominate. A Vozhd is still a ghoul after all, albeit a gigantic one. From here, there are infinite ways to mess the Vozhd up, from making it go fetch you its master to making it sit nicely while you sort out the grown-up stuff. Once you catch it in your gaze, it is putty in your hands. Best of all, Tzimisce don't have Dominate, meaning it can't wrest control of its beast back from you (Old Clan Tzimisce rules! Dominate over Viscissitude every day!)

                        3. If you must engage, kite it. I could see from your post that you have Movement of the Mind, so just levitate above the damn thing. At best it can throw stuff at you, and if you can find a way to blind it (pepper spray FTW) you can take pot shots from the air until kingdom come.

                        4. Mess with its habitat or food supply. A Vozhd is HUGE, and even a mad Tzimisce can't risk the Mazquerade unless they want a literal torch-weilding mob at their door. Buy up property, send eviction notices, and watch the BBEG struggle to move two tonnes of flesh-monstrosity unseen. In a similar vein, feeding such a beast is no easy task. That is a weakness you can target, through bureaucracy, increased police surveillance, or other means. At worst, you are taking time and resources from the master. At best, the master will think the Vozhd more trouble than it's worth, and take care of the problem for you.

                        _____________________________


                        You mention on several occasions that Vozhd do not breathe, have biological processes, and other such. Yes they do. They are GHOULS. Massive, twisted, fleshcrafted ghouls. They are never embraced in the creation process, and God help anyone who tries to embrace it. The blood cost to wake each night alone would be unheard of. No, Vozhd are mortal, and everyone should be grateful (especially its master) that they are.

                        _____________________________

                        And finally, remember that a Vozhd is not practical in the final nights. They were great in the Dark Ages, where they were siege engines on legs. But they are almost useless on the city streets where the wars are fought these nights. Where will you hide it? Where will you use it without IMMEDIETELY cluing mortals into the extistence of the supernatural?
                        Thank you for these ideas! I had almost forgotten that vozhd were ghouls and had to breathe... That and the dominate option do open up some possibilities! Thanks!

                        The main issue is that these are vozhd that were never named as such and may be homebrewed versions. They are present on several different sites in the absence of their creator and do not behave in stereotypical vozhd fashion. I named them as vozhd here because that's what they looked like but they don't behave as they should when compared to what I read in lore and what people here described.

                        The issue is that the secondary vampire "bosses" are not only shielded by vozhd but also by fanatical humans that may or not be there of there own free will. And all these go around openly in full view of the public in a large ghettoized part of the city/suburbs.

                        Besides all that the four members of the coterie are rather young vamps with only around 50 to 60 xp added since charge...

                        So we have to be creative and that's why I came here to ask for help and advice 😇😁👍

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Now that I think of it, considering the mass of a vozhd techniques used against war helephants should also work when adapted.. So going for the eyes, the knees, the Achilles heel and feet on general should help bring it down and reduce it's mobility. The issue will be dodging the weapon from all the goons while we are doing this... Unless we manage to create some chaos with some tear gas...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            2. Use Dominate. A Vozhd is still a ghoul after all, albeit a gigantic one. From here, there are infinite ways to mess the Vozhd up, from making it go fetch you its master to making it sit nicely while you sort out the grown-up stuff. Once you catch it in your gaze, it is putty in your hands. Best of all, Tzimisce don't have Dominate, meaning it can't wrest control of its beast back from you (Old Clan Tzimisce rules! Dominate over Viscissitude every day!)
                            Vozhd are immune to Dominate.

                            Originally posted by DuncanD View Post
                            Thinking a bit more rationally about it, how would vamps and vozhd fare against tactical tear gas? They don't breathe so that's out but they still have eyes so would it partially blind them?
                            Probably depends on the ST. I don't know that the book says anything in regards to it. In theory it would still work (though Vozhd would still have their high Stamina and Fortitude to possibly mitigate it).

                            Since vamps don't have the biological processes that generate tears to protect the eyes from the agressive compounds in tear gas, wouldn't their eyes be more damaged than mortals that would be blinded but protected by their tears? What would happen to vozhd's eyes?
                            It comes down to a point as to how magical their processes are. Where that line starts and ends is vague.

                            What about crowd control (or fire truck) water cannon with a reservoir filled with water blessed by a priest?

                            If you have other suggestions, I'll be grateful 😁
                            I don't think holy water does anything to vampires in VtM?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              My advice? Leave. Get out. It's not your problem. This is an issue for the Camarilla war effort against the Sabbat. Neonates with barely 60 XP are fodder and are not expected to win in this situation. If your Prince demands it if you then just tell him to fuck off and leave. Go find a new city to live in with proper expectations of the membership.


                              Alternatively - defect. The Sabbat are more interesting anyway. Offer to serve as a double agent and leak info to the Sabbat. Request them to give you a token victory or two to sell the deception.

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