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V20 - Ghoul disciplines pre and post embrace

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  • V20 - Ghoul disciplines pre and post embrace

    Hello All,

    As I understand it all ghouls get Celerity, Fortitude, and Potence as disciplines (besides Clan specific ones) when they become ghouls and can evolve them up to a certain level dependant of the domitor's level. This brings me to several questions :

    - If a Ghoul made by a 13th generation vampire is fed blood from a 5th generation vampire, does it allow to go beyond the discipline limit?

    -If the same ghoul reaches level 1 in available disciplines and then reverts to human state, does he lose this progress? Let's say that said reverted ghoul were to be ghouled again a couple of months after revertion by a 5th Gen vampire. Would he start again from 0 in his disciplines? What generational limit would apply then?

    -If a Ghoul were to be embraced, would he keep his disciplines and advancement in those post embrace, especially if said disciplines were usually unavailable to the sire's clan? If so, would the generational limit used when the character was a Ghoul still apply?

    Thank you in advance for your contributions 🙏

  • #2
    1. If the Ghoul receives Vitae regularly enough from the 5th generation then that Blood defines his/her limits, it does not matter which vampire original made him into a Ghoul. Only the Blood matters.

    2. According to V20 Ghouls & Revenants they start loosing their disciplines one point per Discipline per six months without any Vitae in their systems. So a few month break in Vitae supply doesnt yet affect the Ghouls disciplines.

    3. Embraced Ghouls retain all their learned disciplines upon becoming a vampire and are only as restricted in further development as any vampire, no ghoulish restrictions remain. They also get additional disciplines upon Embrace like everyone else. This is found in the Ghoul section of V20 core.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Possessed View Post
      1. If the Ghoul receives Vitae regularly enough from the 5th generation then that Blood defines his/her limits, it does not matter which vampire original made him into a Ghoul. Only the Blood matters.

      2. According to V20 Ghouls & Revenants they start loosing their disciplines one point per Discipline per six months without any Vitae in their systems. So a few month break in Vitae supply doesnt yet affect the Ghouls disciplines.

      3. Embraced Ghouls retain all their learned disciplines upon becoming a vampire and are only as restricted in further development as any vampire, no ghoulish restrictions remain. They also get additional disciplines upon Embrace like everyone else. This is found in the Ghoul section of V20 core.
      Thank you for your answers 👌😁

      If this ghoul were a PC, what would be the impact on chargen? Would you have him or her lose the acquired points in outclan ghoulish disciplines but keep the availability of those for further development? I ask this in order to level the playing field with other PC starting as vampires.

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      • #4
        If my memory serves me right there is a Giovanni Merit which represents characters background as a Ghoul called Proxy Kissed. It has two levels a 5 point and a 7 point one, I’m throwing the numbers out of memory so they are propably wrong, the cheaper gives you one point of Potence in addition to your normal beginning disciplines and the more expensive version gives you a dot of Fortitude as well, if I remember correctly, but you also start at various levels of Bloodbond in addition to the one level you have for your sire. I’d check that Merit to keep chargen at level playing field.

        Of course if the character is not Giovanni it is much more likely that your character is bonded to a single vampire possibly even fully bound especially on the higher level of the Merit. And while I would at the lower level always give Potence, since it is the Discipline all Ghouls get, I would personally allow the second dot of the high level Merit to be any alloved to the Ghoul as per their previous Domitor.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Possessed View Post
          If my memory serves me right there is a Giovanni Merit which represents characters background as a Ghoul called Proxy Kissed. It has two levels a 5 point and a 7 point one, I’m throwing the numbers out of memory so they are propably wrong, the cheaper gives you one point of Potence in addition to your normal beginning disciplines and the more expensive version gives you a dot of Fortitude as well, if I remember correctly, but you also start at various levels of Bloodbond in addition to the one level you have for your sire. I’d check that Merit to keep chargen at level playing field.

          Of course if the character is not Giovanni it is much more likely that your character is bonded to a single vampire possibly even fully bound especially on the higher level of the Merit. And while I would at the lower level always give Potence, since it is the Discipline all Ghouls get, I would personally allow the second dot of the high level Merit to be any alloved to the Ghoul as per their previous Domitor.
          Thank you for the reply!

          Well, I don't have specifics about Clan yet but let's say the character has the former ghoul merit and the player is OK with starting with just basic vamp clan disciplines, would you allow the acquisition of points in standard ghoulish disciplines with acquired xp? If yes, would you treat them as in clan or out clan disciplines?

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          • #6
            The only clan disciplines they would get are the ones granted by the clan they are embraced into, and potentially more from the "Extra Clan Discipline" merit if they take it.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by PazuzuAxelf View Post
              The only clan disciplines they would get are the ones granted by the clan they are embraced into, and potentially more from the "Extra Clan Discipline" merit if they take it.
              But if they do take the merit, but do not allocate any points towards that discipline at chargen, would you require a teacher and/or learning time when they decide to allocate experience points to said discipline?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by DuncanD View Post

                But if they do take the merit, but do not allocate any points towards that discipline at chargen, would you require a teacher and/or learning time when they decide to allocate experience points to said discipline?
                If they do not allocate Discipline points towards it then they either have not learned it during their Ghouldom or have been purged of such knowledge and power by being too long without vampiric Vitae before their eventual Embrace. In other words I wouldn’t give them any discounts and I would require a teacher. But that is just me so YMMV. The Extra Clan Discipline (5 point) Merit itself, if using that instead of the Proxy Kissed to represent previous Ghouldom, does not require you to buy the Discipline itself at chargen but like said I personally, especially if the justification for the Merit is time spend as a Ghoul, would require at least putting one point towards it at chargen, which is a good move exp wise as well.

                If not using Proxy Kissed but Extra Clan Discipline to represent time as a Ghoul I would also require that the character buy Bound (2 point) Flaw unless the backstory involves the Regnants Final Death.
                Last edited by Possessed; 10-21-2018, 06:07 AM. Reason: Typo

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Possessed View Post

                  If they do not allocate Discipline points towards it then they either have not learned it during their Ghouldom or have been purged of such knowledge and power by being too long without vampiric Vitae before their eventual Embrace. In other words I wouldn’t give them any discounts and I would require a teacher. But that is just me so YMMV. The Extra Clan Discipline (5 point) Merit itself, if using that instead of the Proxy Kissed to represent previous Ghouldom, does not require you to buy the Discipline itself at chargen but like said I personally, especially if the justification for the Merit is time spend as a Ghoul, would require at least putting one point towards it at chargen, which is a good move exp wise as well.

                  If not using Proxy Kissed but Extra Clan Discipline to represent time as a Ghoul I would also require that the character buy Bound (2 point) Flaw unless the backstory involves the Regnants Final Death.
                  Thank you for your input👌

                  I didn't think about proxy kiss but wouldn't it be relevant only for Giovanni characters? (lore wise)

                  As for the bound flaw, would a character know if their sire/regnant had met his demise?

                  Would it be possible for the sire to be distinct from the regnant? If so where would the blood loyalty of the created vampire lie?

                  This is getting more complicated than I expected. I saw that there is a book on ghouls and revenants. Does it expand on the mechanics or is it mostly lore and fluff?

                  Thanks again!
                  Last edited by DuncanD; 10-21-2018, 08:16 AM. Reason: Clarification

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                  • #10
                    Personally the old book Ghouls: Fatal Addiction is one of the better books of VtM and definately worth a read. V20 Ghouls and Revenants is again in my personal opinion, though there has been plenty of differing opinions on this unlike with the old book, a good book on Ghouls & Revenants though the mechanics in there are scattered around and not always obvious which is kinda sad. I’d recommend the first for general read through and insight into Ghouls and the second for those with V20 and wishing to ST an all Ghoul story.

                    Proxy Kiss as it is is a Giovanni thing but file off the serial numbers and mod it to your specifications and it works fine to represent a former Ghoul, especially if that Ghouls regnant is different from his sire.

                    Blood loyalty is divided unless there is a full bond towards one or the other in which case the full bond wins.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Possessed View Post
                      Personally the old book Ghouls: Fatal Addiction is one of the better books of VtM and definately worth a read. V20 Ghouls and Revenants is again in my personal opinion, though there has been plenty of differing opinions on this unlike with the old book, a good book on Ghouls & Revenants though the mechanics in there are scattered around and not always obvious which is kinda sad. I’d recommend the first for general read through and insight into Ghouls and the second for those with V20 and wishing to ST an all Ghoul story.

                      Proxy Kiss as it is is a Giovanni thing but file off the serial numbers and mod it to your specifications and it works fine to represent a former Ghoul, especially if that Ghouls regnant is different from his sire.

                      Blood loyalty is divided unless there is a full bond towards one or the other in which case the full bond wins.
                      Thanks a lot ! I'll try and find the fatal addiction book then. Maybe I don't understand it fully but don't most regnants give blood 3 times (therefore full bonding) to their ghouls to ensure loyalty?

                      So if a Tzimice were to embrace a Toreador Ghoul, we would end up with a Tzimice blood loyal to their regnant? If the same happened with a Tremere Ghoul, wouldn't the resulting Ghoul be blood bound to their regnant but also to the clan, up to a point?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DuncanD View Post

                        But if they do take the merit, but do not allocate any points towards that discipline at chargen, would you require a teacher and/or learning time when they decide to allocate experience points to said discipline?
                        Clan disciplines do not require a teacher in V20. They are inherent to the blood. The merit makes it a clan discipline, so no I would not require a teacher.

                        Originally posted by DuncanD View Post

                        Thanks a lot ! I'll try and find the fatal addiction book then. Maybe I don't understand it fully but don't most regnants give blood 3 times (therefore full bonding) to their ghouls to ensure loyalty?

                        So if a Tzimice were to embrace a Toreador Ghoul, we would end up with a Tzimice blood loyal to their regnant? If the same happened with a Tremere Ghoul, wouldn't the resulting Ghoul be blood bound to their regnant but also to the clan, up to a point?
                        Don't think of them as "Toreador Ghoul" or "Tzimisce Ghoul". They are a Ghoul, and thus mortal first and foremost. The embrace determines their clan disciplines and weakness - regardless of previous blood bonds.
                        Last edited by PazuzuAxelf; 10-21-2018, 07:28 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Points of note
                          - The Embrace destroys previous blood bonds
                          - A Ghoul can get higher disciplines thanks to thicker blood, but they only have access while the better blood is in their system; EG they could get a discipline to 3 or 4 but as soon as they're only fed on 13th gen blood, they lose access too it (And I think Ghould pay x20 for disciplines anyway...)
                          - Some versions you lose the ghoul disciplines, some just the free Potence.
                          As an ST, I'd judge it on the following - did the PC get used as a PC for a time or did they really just "Play through a prologue" If it was a Ghoul - Character that's embraced after months of play; give them what they had and increase their powers because they're embraced; if it was just a prologue - then character creation with normal rules.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                            Points of note
                            - The Embrace destroys previous blood bonds
                            You sure about this one? Blood Bond rules fail to mention it nor did I find any reference to it in the Embrace section on a quick flip through of V20. Where as even Proxy Kissed Merit from CB: Giovanni takes former Blood Bonds into account and leaves you to handle them post-Embrace since there it is explicitly stated you may be Bound to both your former Regnant, or Regnants, in addition to your new sire.

                            The only way to shatter the Bond is generally through abstinance, death of Regnant or Vaulderie, and some rare Blood magic Rites.

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                            • #15
                              I am Sure of this, but I don't know where from

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