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Discussion of Chicago by Night 5E Kickstarter Backer Previews (Spoilers)

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  • Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
    Wow, the edition warriors are still laboring under the delusion that if they shit up enough V5 threads with their negativity, then somehow the owners will decide to ditch a very popular edition in favor of what a handful of anonymous internet persons say they want. Divisive? I’m not seeing it. The Revised editions were divisive; this is a large party where a couple of people have suggested that the host throw out the cake and get a new one because they’ve decided they don’t like chocolate, and therefore nobody else likes it either.

    Also, Chicago by Night isn’t walking back or retconning V5; it’s just that some people didn’t actually read the V5 book and got the wrong idea about some things. Because, you know, a brief teaser in the form of a bulleted list doesn’t tend to convey nuance.
    I think there's plenty of room to be critical of V5 while also overall loving the edition. The perfect is the enemy of the good and anyone who expects perfection is making a big mistake. For example, I think while you may say the Chicago by Night books are "CLARIFYING" things--when the main book says, "The Elders are being summoned to the Middle East" that implies a few things.

    But yes, I agree that V5 is a success and should be celebrated as such.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • Originally posted by Illithid View Post
      My point of why it feels like elseworlds;
      Suddenly Hunger works differently, as does Generation (and slaking your thirst on targets) Touchstones and disciplines and all that.
      But there's no Watsonian reason for the sudden change in the game or discussion of the history having changed to accommodate. Even the fact that Assamites no longer darken with age (Something I agree with removing) when they start getting called Banu-Haquim There's some important plot revolving around that.
      Clan weaknesses change, Clan based "Compulsions" and weird Frenzies never seen before start occurring.
      Characters that were Humane by way of avoiding people and keeping their actions "humane" are suddenly struggling with their beasts in ways that they didn't have to, and they're forced to reassess their outlook, find conviction to fight the beast and a touchstone that represents it.

      It's all very much like the old world, but reality has shifted in small to significant ways without in-reality explanations. Has it always been like this or did something happen when the SI attacked?
      Almost everyone that has said they like V5 (not everyone) and the design brief seems to be about bringing it closer to V5, not evolving the type of play from previous editions.
      This would be a bit more of an argument if not for the fact that the changes between 1st Edition and 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition are much the same. For example, Humanity 0 in 1st Edition suddenly no longer means you are irredeemably evil. It now means that you are completely and utterly feral. The Sabbat no longer are Humanity 0 vampires but follow things called "Paths of Enlightement." Humanity changed from 2nd Edition to Revised with suddenly it quite permissable to kill humans all the time at Humanity 4 rather than Humanity 1.

      Also some of the things had long been hinted at it in lore but not rules-bound like the fact that lower generation vampires could not subsist on animal blood (that was mentioned as far back as Diablerie: Mexico). Hunger frenzies had ALWAYS been a thing. You don't NEED touchstones as Talley doesn't have any in Chicago by Night. However, Touchstones are very very useful if you want to keep your humanity.

      Do I think we need a Watsonian explanation? Yes, yes I do. I think the Withering needs to be canonized.

      However, I'm not the developer on this.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
        Also some of the things had long been hinted at it in lore but not rules-bound like the fact that lower generation vampires could not subsist on animal blood (that was mentioned as far back as Diablerie: Mexico). Hunger frenzies had ALWAYS been a thing. You don't NEED touchstones as Talley doesn't have any in Chicago by Night. However, Touchstones are very very useful if you want to keep your humanity.
        Character creation requires touchstones, but yes, it's pretty easy to lose one and never look at replacing it. After taking the hit of a Humanity or two...
        There are rules for being only able to subsist on humans/vampires with specific flaws, but now it's everyone.
        Even with a focus on animalism, I've got characters that wouldn't be playable as is for that aspect alone.

        Yes Hunger Frenzy was a thing. When there was a notable source of blood around. Now, if you feed but never kill, will frenzy about 1 in 10 times that your opponent was better than you.*

        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
        Do I think we need a Watsonian explanation? Yes, yes I do. I think the Withering needs to be canonized.
        150% Yes

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        • Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post
          I've been giving the max trait 5 some thought. I think for game balance it must be much better, but for things like Helena or Ur-Shulgi it wont work. How do you stop a group of players (who will no doubt advance in power quite a bit in a couple years of playing) from taking down a Methuselah?

          This question is from someone who hasn't read the 5th edition yet. Does being old give benefits to balance the lack of elder power levels?
          Methusalehs with Blood Potency 10 can...
          - spend a Rouse to add 5 dice to any roll that isn't Willpower or Humanity
          - spend a Rouse to heal 5 points of superficial damage
          - add 5 dice to any rolls for disciplines
          - use all disciplines for half blood cost

          So if she really wanted to make an impression, Helena's Majesty would have around 20 dice - and remember that due to the way criticals work, more dice means more than a linear rise in power.

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          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
            Also, Chicago by Night is also the Lasombra Clan Book just like Anarch book is the Ministry and the Camarilla is the Banu Haqim.
            A Clanbook ( and similar books for other groups - Tradition, Convention, Tribe, Vampire sect books etc. ) is very distinct in how it is focused exclusively on a single Clan ; it is in the writing, and in the variety of topics that are talked about from the perspective of / in regard to a particular Clan. Do these V5 books get at all close to this ?

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            • Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
              A Clanbook ( and similar books for other groups - Tradition, Convention, Tribe, Vampire sect books etc. ) is very distinct in how it is focused exclusively on a single Clan ; it is in the writing, and in the variety of topics that are talked about from the perspective of / in regard to a particular Clan. Do these V5 books get at all close to this ?
              I thought the Lasombra section was very thorough.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                The problem with that is V5 is (at least in my opinion) the best edition since 1st Edition. Your opinion of it isn't even true for many long term fans. See Utility Muffin Labs, myself, and many others. If you reboot it, you run the risk of losing all those fans. Myself included. Because I can't imagine what would be done which wouldn't potentially ruin the best update of the game. Get rid of the Beckoning? The Second Inqusition? Screw that.

                How would your 6E change things without losing all the V5 fans?
                Well, I'd say some of the same things Leandro16 did. I never said cutting all the ideas of V5 and going back totally to V20. I defended a lot of the ideas during the development. I'd just want them to be tempered and other things, like combat to be re-examined.

                I'm advocating for a 30th revision, because I do believe there could be a happy medium, that'd make most of the fans at least accepting it, which would be a lot mroe helathy, than the current situation.

                Also, me and the other people don't liking V5 might be a loud minority, yes. but I don't think so. I think it's quite evenly split (and that most of the advocaters are not from the folks who kept playing the game in the last decade), but that, of course, is just a perception and the success of the edition would make itself clear, in 1-2 years of time.

                BUT. If it's selling like hot cakes and everyone, excluding some grumbling grognards is happy about it, I think WW would say it, just like the D&D team repeatedly said how well 5e is selling.

                That leads to losing the fans who love it. Honestly, after a point, they would have to choose which fans they want to lose? Which would be decided by which is the bigger and most influential group.

                But honestly, do you, V5 fans are really that uncompromising? It has to be V5 or bust? Can't we meet halfway?

                Also, it's absolutely not a representative sample, just my perception about what I see on social media, but you know what I see (again, it might be a false perception)? That yes, there are a lots of V5-liking posts on the big FB groups, or on Reddit, but mostly by the same batch of people, including you. I don't mean it as a criticism. you guys like this edition and you do everything to promote it and make people excited. I could relate to that.

                However, the last poll on the biggest FB group about "favorite editions" Revised (an edition out of print for 15 years) got twice the votes of V5 and V20 nearly the quadrouple. Again, it is not representative, but there it is.

                Another totaly anecdotal and non-representative thing I'd like to add: as far a I can ascertain, the Hungarian fanbase, at least those who are active on social media platforms, groups and such, mostly said no to V5. There are some people who liked elements of it, but even them have critiques. Most of the, again, active folks don't like it.

                At he end, V5 is not better, or worse, than any other edition. It is, however, a very different take on the game and for that, some people very much like it, as it pushes the right buttons for them and that is totally fine. It's just as it was with Requiem. However, it isn't, for a lot of other people, the next edition of Vampire they wanted. Time will tell which is the bigger crowd, because again, after all, numbers will decide it.
                Last edited by PMárk; 12-06-2018, 07:00 PM.


                If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                • BUT. If it's selling like hot cakes and everyone, excluding some grumbling grognards is happy about it, I think WW would say it, just like the D&D team repeatedly said how well 5e is selling.
                  I thought they HAVE been saying that. That shops have been selling more of V5 than they ever have been of V20.

                  But honestly, do you, V5 fans are really that uncompromising? It has to be V5 or bust? Can't we meet halfway?
                  It depends on what's halfway. There's a lot of people who have been hating on V5 at every element and say the work is the worst thing since Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition.

                  (Burrrrrrrn)

                  Over on RPG.net they're convinced the entirety of the system is secretly co-opted by an Alt-Right Nazi conspiracy (I wish I was making this up) and is irreedeemable. Other people just don't like Hunger Dice or the Beckoning.

                  So saying what is the issue is a big deal, IMHO.

                  At he end, V5 is not better, or worse, than any other edition. It is, however, a very different take on the game and for that, some people very much like it, as it pushes the right buttons for them and that is totally fine. It's just as it was with Requiem. However, it isn't, for a lot of other people, the next edition of Vampire they wanted. Time will tell which is the bigger crowd, because again, after all, numbers will decide it.
                  Tabletop gaming is a bit like vinyl appreciation now in that a lot of the original heydayers of V:TM have since moved on to become computer gamers or continue their original game use. Not everyone upgrades as a 2nd Edition supplement is as useful now as it was 15 years ago since imagination doesn't require graphics cards.

                  But yes, I'd be happy to discuss what you see as 5th Edition's failings.
                  Last edited by CTPhipps; 12-06-2018, 07:56 PM.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    Over on RPG.net they're convinced the entirety of the system is secretly co-opted by an Alt-Right Nazi conspiracy (I wish I was making this up) and is irreedeemable. Other people just don't like Hunger Dice or the Beckoning.
                    That friends,makes me so mad. Seriously,let's take a look at white wolf history shall we?

                    They had two preludes games. the Mage one was about helping refugees, the protagonist was polyamorous. The other had hardcore leftist vampires
                    They constantly reminded everyone at their speeches about the new vision of the game that they wanted diversity
                    Remember rusted veins? How it had a an all black cast?
                    Remember how the first playtest document thoroughly said the main characters were bad because they were part of a corrupt regime? and deserved what they got? And oh, one of the morally abhorrent characters is dogpiled and destroyed?
                    And how about v5? hmmm? How about Fascism is condemned every.single time. it. is. mentioned? Seriously,if you find one (1), just one (1) line in v5 that even remotely says fascims is good,i'll apologize and tell you i was wrong in a instant
                    But hey,it's not like people care about facts this days,am i right?

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                    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                      I thought the Lasombra section was very thorough.
                      Does it mention the Paths of Enlightenment ? For that matter, are the Paths mentioned or described anywhere in V5 ?

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                      • Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                        Does it mention the Paths of Enlightenment ? For that matter, are the Paths mentioned or described anywhere in V5 ?
                        I haven't found them while skimming through. Of course, having a Path of Enlightenment, and particularly one of those favored by the Sabbat, would not exactly make you a prime candidate for Camarilla acceptance.

                        As for V5 in general: There have been mentions of alternate morality rules, like non-human touchstones. That said, with the inherently modifiable Tenet and Conviction rules, I think Paths are less of a requirement than previously.

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                        • Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                          As for V5 in general: There have been mentions of alternate morality rules, like non-human touchstones. That said, with the inherently modifiable Tenet and Conviction rules, I think Paths are less of a requirement than previously.
                          I think Paths should have some rules specific to them ; ones that make it clear that Vampires on them have a highly distinct outlook and perspective.
                          Last edited by Muad'Dib; 12-08-2018, 09:15 AM.

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                          • Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                            I think Paths should have some rules specific to them ; ones that make it clear that Vampires on them have a highly distinct outlook and perspective.
                            A vampire with Convictions like "Transcend the flawed mortal form you were born with", "Compassion is weakness" and the like will have that all on their own.

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                            • I think with the new rules, we'll see Paths of Enlightenment as Loresheets rather than alternatives to Humanity.

                              They'll be bonuses and benefits rather than differences.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • Like my uncle Leo Giavanni used to say “Let’s put the romance back in Necromancy” but then again according to Miricle max “mostly dead means he’s slightly alive”

                                I was re-reading the backer preview and I wanted to know more about the lucky numbers fortune cookie clues. They seem to be GPS numbers and they primarily point to locations in Chicago when you add the negative to the second number except a couple that are in New Jersey. I think they are clues to the Bahari in Chicago. And I hope we see more in church of the Blood gods. Any thoughts on this plot line?

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