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VtDA - Possession Body Switch

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  • VtDA - Possession Body Switch

    Greetings my fellow Cainites,

    I am playing an power hungry Tzimisce in a V20 dark ages chronicle. Unfortunatly he is rather weak in combat, lacking Dots in Fortitude, Celerity and Potence.

    Posession (Dominate 5, p.219) does work on Cainites which are bound by blood to you. All physical Disciplines would be useable by the posessing Vampire. The Rules say:

    "If the Cainite’s original bodyis destroyed, she may stay in her host body indefinitely,
    though she remains trapped in the weak prison of flesh. At each sunrise, she must roll Courage at difficulty 8 or be forcefully ejected from the host."

    Am Mortal would be a "Weak Prison of Flesh". A Cainite wouldnt, in my opinion, be a weak Prison of Flesh. So Posession of a Cainite would allow for a body swap. Effectivly stealing all physical Disciplines of the Posessed.

    Aside from a game balancing standpoint, what would you say?

  • #2
    If you die the blood bond is severed. So therefore it shouldn’t work?

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    • #3
      I would say weak prison of flesh is merely a touch of flavor. And that that idea is that, regardless of mortal or blood oath Kindred possession, the result is the same.

      Comment


      • #4
        Does it actually say somewhere that Possession allows you to use the target's disciplines?

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't have Dark Age book but the V20 from Mascarade.
          Your plan to stealh a body will quickly end in your unlife and according to your number of success, you may be in the body without any Discipline (you need at least 2 success to be able to use Discipline).

          For you plan to have your body destroy to possess the stealh body without end ...
          It won't prevent the daily attempt every day to recover his body.

          You are expulse from the body if :
          - Your body fall asleep.
          - Your body receive damage ...

          In order to have your body destroy, you need to be in Torpor (not from damage but natural Torpor and not sleep before).

          To take possession from the Blood Bond Vampire, you'll have to drain temporary willpower ...
          But when he will regain his willpower ... he may use it to drive you out.

          And finally, it's my opinion, when you fall asleep, your soul is send to astral plan, lost forever.

          This power is clary think to be temporary possession, not permanent.
          In case where you're trape in another corps, it a question of day before being 'lost' or you may find another body like magical construct (wellcome Frankestein).

          Even a blood bond vampire is far more resilient and will fight back to retrieve his body after few days or at best weeks.

          Comment


          • #6
            Stealing a body needs another set of powers. You could slay a vampire , preserving his corpse with Necromancy and take possession with Demonic possession. Therefore you need Auspex 5, Necromancy 5 and luck with the dice (you need 5 successes with your roll to possess a vampire). Alternative way would be to prepare the target vampire is the ritual puppet. So he need not be slain.


            So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

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            • #7
              And another one for the chorus: Nope, doesn't work. It's even somewhat dubious if you can use the physical disciplines as the discipline doesn't say so.

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              • #8
                This just seems like learning disciplines with extra steps.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                  And another one for the chorus: Nope, doesn't work. It's even somewhat dubious if you can use the physical disciplines as the discipline doesn't say so.

                  As I was saying, I've got the French D20 Vampire Mascarade book and not the english version or Dark Age, so @Popeman50 may quote the fact that if a blood bond ghoul is target from possession, the user can use physical Discipline from the ghoul but no other Discipline from the target.

                  It will be possible only if the vampire have at least 2 success on a Manipulation + Intimidation roll (difficulty 7) after the target has loss all temporary willpover point.
                  It's for a ghoul, no precision are given for a blood bond vampire.

                  Other discipline that can be use cam from the vampire, not the target :
                  1 success : no Discipline at all.
                  2 success : Auspex and sensories power
                  3 success : Presence and emotional manipulation power
                  4 success : Alienate, Domination and mental manipulation power
                  5 success : Chimestry, Thaumaturgy, Necromancy and other mystical power

                  A lot of discipline can't be use with possession like Vicissitude.

                  It's on page 155 / 156 for the French book ...
                  Sorry even if have got no issu to read in english, I take core book in my native language for other players.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Popeman50 View Post
                    Greetings my fellow Cainites,
                    Posession (Dominate 5, p.219) does work on Cainites which are bound by blood to you. All physical Disciplines would be useable by the posessing Vampire. The Rules say:
                    "This ability may not be used on another supernatural creature, nor on another vampire unless the two share a Blood Oath; it is always easiest to hurt those you hold close."

                    So, you can use it on a bloodbonded Vampire. Nowhere does it say you get to use the character's Disciplines.
                    You would only have limited powers depending on your successes on the roll (No Viscissitude, etc) as Faerl mentioned

                    ​If you want to be more physical; Zulo Form at Viscisitude 4 is practically 3 free potence, Celerity and Fortitude (p 268-269 English Dark Ages book) and brawling damage is increased by one. Then Level 6 lets you flight and deal Agg with natural weapons at Str+2

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                      ​If you want to be more physical; Zulo Form at Viscisitude 4 is practically 3 free potence, Celerity and Fortitude (p 268-269 English Dark Ages book)
                      Wow is this not even remotely close to truth. Zulo Form is basically a blood buff at a discount. It's nothing like getting free Potence, Celerity and Fortitude.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Popeman50 View Post

                        Posession (Dominate 5, p.219) does work on Cainites which are bound by blood to you. All physical Disciplines would be useable by the posessing Vampire. The Rules say:

                        Possession specifically says it CANNOT be used on another vampire.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Embustero View Post


                          Possession specifically says it CANNOT be used on another vampire.
                          If you read further you may find an exception. Don't have V20 with me but I think DA is good enough


                          DAV20 p.219:
                          This ability may not be used on another supernatural creature, nor on another vampire unless the two share a Blood Oath; it is always easiest to hurt those you hold close.
                          There is also a combination discipline with either Viscissitude or Obtenebration that gives the possibility to possess from the inside. Sadly the Conquering Blood doesn't work on kindred. The Obten variation does.


                          So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                            Wow is this not even remotely close to truth. Zulo Form is basically a blood buff at a discount. It's nothing like getting free Potence, Celerity and Fortitude.
                            Dark Ages V20 Physicals give you a +1 to the related Attribute, but also have a blood expenditure additional power (Make potence dice auto, make fortitude dice auto, reduce penalties for multiple actions with celerity)
                            Yes, without the blood activation extra it is the same as blood buffing BUT isn't limited to attribute maximums for blood buffing.

                            Embustero: Dark Ages, as per my earlier quote and the page ref from Nonsense allows a specific situation for Vampires to be Possessed.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Nonsense View Post
                              If you read further you may find an exception. Don't have V20 with me but I think DA is good enough


                              DAV20 p.219:
                              This ability may not be used on another supernatural creature, nor on another vampire unless the two share a Blood Oath; it is always easiest to hurt those you hold close.
                              There is also a combination discipline with either Viscissitude or Obtenebration that gives the possibility to possess from the inside. Sadly the Conquering Blood doesn't work on kindred. The Obten variation does.

                              Interesting. V20 says:

                              "Vampires cannot possess one another in this fashion, as even the weakest Kindred’s mind is strong enough to resist such straightforward mental dominance. Only through a blood bond can one vampire control another to this degree.

                              Which I read as: This power doesn't work on vampires, if you want to have control of another vampire use the blood bond.

                              But now I wonder. It can also be read as " If you have a blood bond you can use possession" although you have to push it a little to get to that interpretation.


                              So coming back to the original question, then. The original writing of Possession didn't need any roll to stay in the body for as long as you wanted, you only rolled when trying to stay awake during the day or your original body was dead. The DAV20 writing is not clear on if you start rolling only when your original body dies or if you roll every sunrise. It seems to imply that you only roll after your own body as died as it follows that specific sentence. So first your GM needs to determine if you need to roll if your body is still around somewhere. Because RAW, I'd say, you don't need to and you can stay for as long as you want.

                              When it comes to the possible loophole of "weak prison of flesh" I'd say no. That is clearly flavor text. Also, using logic, if a weak human can eject you from his body, it would be even harder to remain on a vampire's body.

                              I'd allow you to use physical disciplines as that is clearly the intent of both writings of Possession.

                              To sum it up, if I were your GM i would allow you to stay in a vampire's body for as long as you wanted with no roll and no need for your original body to be dead, but not because of the loophole you think it is there. Mainly because I'd like to tell that story and want to see where you take it, but also because I feel it is RAW. And when I say I'd be interested to see that story unfold, I mean how you'd deal with the consequences,. Like for example, having some mental fugue yourself, to represent when the host sometimes manages to take over; some kind of resistance as he host starts to fight back; hearing the host in your head; starting to have some psychic meld between the two. Things like that.
                              Last edited by Embustero; 11-05-2018, 07:26 PM.

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