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  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    You are absolutely entitled to behave in such a manner and you should never support content that you do not believe in. White Wolf has a history of being massive supportive of the queer community and is the first RPG company to promote diverse content.
    That's exactly why this sentence on page 68 of the Camarilla book hurt deeply: "While homosexuals are indeed held in detention facilities for days, and humiliated, starved, tortured, and eventually fed upon and killed, this is not the point. The point is to distract from the truth of what Chechnya has become." (bold for emphasis mine).

    This sentence in this context dismisses real world suffering of real world people to a mere point in a game being made. WW used to be allies. This is a massive betrayal of things 1990ies WW put forth. Yes, I realize it's other people running the show. But I can't understand, after their previous media desasters this year, why nobody involved with the book at WW realized that this is a massively bad idea of going about things?

    I gave them the benefit of the doubt all the way through all the controversies about half-sentences. But this isn't half-sentences anymore. These are pages of material mounting in the most dismissive statement against a former target audience that I've read in a game book. It feels like cold-blooded betrayal for cheap theatrical thrills, reducing gays to victims on a massive scale.


    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    Before you do the above, though, I should point out that the Camarilla entry caused me to investigate the horrible treatment of homosexuals in Chechyna and raised my awareness of the action as well as encourage me to want to work against such horrific conditions. I don't know what as an American I can do about it but believe the inclusion in the gamebook was a way to bring attention to a horrific human rights abuse not covered in my media.
    In the end that probably was their intention. But the execution of this: terrible. Makes me hurt so deep inside.

    For the record: neither SJW nor alt-right, since this discourse is rather meaningless in my country. If you must now: I am a middle of the road type of guy. This is just the point where at least V5 is not my game of vampires anymore.

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    • Who is the el Hijazi clan mentioned in the Dubai city section? and is the Old Clan the Salubri?

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      • Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post

        That's exactly why this sentence on page 68 of the Camarilla book hurt deeply: "While homosexuals are indeed held in detention facilities for days, and humiliated, starved, tortured, and eventually fed upon and killed, this is not the point. The point is to distract from the truth of what Chechnya has become." (bold for emphasis mine).

        This sentence in this context dismisses real world suffering of real world people to a mere point in a game being made. WW used to be allies. This is a massive betrayal of things 1990ies WW put forth. Yes, I realize it's other people running the show. But I can't understand, after their previous media desasters this year, why nobody involved with the book at WW realized that this is a massively bad idea of going about things?

        I gave them the benefit of the doubt all the way through all the controversies about half-sentences. But this isn't half-sentences anymore. These are pages of material mounting in the most dismissive statement against a former target audience that I've read in a game book. It feels like cold-blooded betrayal for cheap theatrical thrills, reducing gays to victims on a massive scale.




        In the end that probably was their intention. But the execution of this: terrible. Makes me hurt so deep inside.

        For the record: neither SJW nor alt-right, since this discourse is rather meaningless in my country. If you must now: I am a middle of the road type of guy. This is just the point where at least V5 is not my game of vampires anymore.
        Completely agreed. Something has gone horribly wrong with the WoD. I know queer Chechens, including a gay guy who has spent most of his life helping gay and trans people emigrate. Considering the very real human suffering that occurs there, I can't see how a civilized human being could find this new content humorous or acceptable.

        It's sad to see that a line which was once a vanguard for acceptance of LGBT people (back when it was actually controversial in the main target nations, rather than doing it the moment it becomes safe as is the norm with media) is now pissing on that to focus on edginess and pander to a certain demographic. And if you want to see who, you can always check out the comments on WW's Facebook posts...

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        • Personally, I would recommend they remove the aforementioned part of the book when they correct the typos in the book.

          The intention is, IMHO, to highlight the actual horrors going on in a way that will reach an audience that wouldn't normally know about them but the way handling them is not well done. I don't think even in-universe the intention is the Camarilla figure is telling the truth, however.

          The entire part is full of double-think and evasions as he talks about the atrocities.

          Implying that we're meant to assume the Kindred aren't in control but are trying to pretend they are.

          Not that such matters as it should have been handled more respectfully. As in, if mentioned at all, that Kindred are being targeted by the despotic regime.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • You know, you guys are right.

            This is the intro to my review of the Camarilla book:

            2.5/5

            THE CAMARILLA (sourcebook) is an incredibly flawed book that would have otherwise been a 4.5/5 if not for one incredibly ill-conceived chapter that I think needs to be removed. It would be in the best interests of Modipheus Entertainment as well as the fandom of the whole to remove the chapter and publish the book without it. It's that offensive and I'm not normally someone who plays morality police on a horror game.

            But we'll get to that.

            Actually, no, it's probably best to get it out of the way before anything else. The Camarilla (sourcebook) contains a chapter devoted to describing Mordor meets Latveria. There's a murerously evil little country ruled by a vampire dictator which is rounding up all the gays and other innocents to be vampire snacks. Here's the problem, it's a real country. You know, you can describe Montreal as a Satan-worshiping hellhole, that's actually funny. It's considerably less funny when it's a country actually doing the things you're telling people are secretly the work of vampires. It's why Hilter was a mortal, 9/11 wasn't caused by the Sabbat, and Columbine wasn't the work of two Thin Bloods (yes, I had that ST and he lasted until that session).

            At our table, we have what's called the century rule. It's a simple enough thing that nothing can be said to be the fault of something supernatural until at least a century has passed and all of the people victimized by it are dead. You can state that the Confederacy was actually a massive Ventrue and Toreador scheme where all plantation owners were ghoul families or vampires.

            You could even run a kickass game as a Brujah slave liberator. You can say Archduke Ferdidnand was killed by Anarchs ghouls. Don't claim Martin Luther King was killed by the Technocracy. Don't say genocides in Eastern Europe were the work of Belial's cult. Especially if, in this day and age, you can actually talk to the poor bastards who survived it.

            So, I'm knocking off two points from my score because of Chechnya's chapter. It's one of those things which will go down with World of Darkness: Gypsies (The Holocaust was Hitler's fear of Romani magic!) and Himmler the Tremere for really bad ideas. If you're going to make up a nation of evil, make up an actual fictional nation. Call it Groznystan or get an actual Russian to make up a name but don't demean real life atrocities.


            Thank you for persuading me.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • Screw it, I made a petition to have the chapter removed.

              https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/...-the-camarilla


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Robert D View Post
                Who is the el Hijazi clan mentioned in the Dubai city section? and is the Old Clan the Salubri?

                El Hijazi are Arab Ventrue: Old Clan ... I suppose and hope it's Tzimisce!

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                • Interestingly, the Camarilla book outsold the Anarch book the last two days on DTRPG. Albeit that could be, because people just like to play Camarilla more.

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                  • Controversies aside I would have preferred if more of the book was not written in first person. I like how they did it in BJD where you get all the in character bits but then at the end of each chapter you got valuable plot points and ideas. Also why did the books not contain more merits and flaws? The V5 rulebook's list of merits and flaws are woefully slim and we need more options there.

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                    • Originally posted by Frontline989 View Post
                      Controversies aside I would have preferred if more of the book was not written in first person. I like how they did it in BJD where you get all the in character bits but then at the end of each chapter you got valuable plot points and ideas. Also why did the books not contain more merits and flaws? The V5 rulebook's list of merits and flaws are woefully slim and we need more options there.
                      Because you can't afford more merits and you can't take extra flaws. You get 7 merit dots in V5. That's your budget to buy resources, haven, friends and loresheets. Having more merits means leaving your vampire a connectionless hobo.

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                      • Originally posted by Kammerer View Post

                        Because you can't afford more merits and you can't take extra flaws. You get 7 merit dots in V5. That's your budget to buy resources, haven, friends and loresheets. Having more merits means leaving your vampire a connectionless hobo.
                        That's never been an issue before. I think VTM has always had merits and flaws and a set number of background points. Freebies are a thing too.

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                        • I would also point out, that many STs give you additional points for obvious reasons. After all, it is fairly easy to get certain background points in play and add only superficial RP (or unwanted one).

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                          • There is a system in 20th Anniversary Edition of WoD (although V20 might not have it) where you can pay 2x the cost of a merit in EXP to acquire it, if it's suitable. For example paying 2 EXP to acquire Eat Food by practicing holding down a glass of water and some bread makes sense.

                            Furthermore, you get 5 dots to go in Backgrounds already! If you're a homeless Vampire it's because you went Generation 5 and then put 0 of your freebies into backgrounds. I mean your ST might let it slide but you can hardly blame the system for your guy being a vampire hobo.

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                            • On the Cleaver chapter in the Anarchs book. I can definitely say that the pedophilia implications are clear, as it almost seemed like a direct nod towards dark web forums about grooming children. It was incredibly disturbing, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, given the content warnings. I certainly don't think we're supposed to see the Cleavers in any sort of positive light despite their own thoughts on the matter.

                              It's easy to read Anarchs as the sexy rebels fighting for good by taking down the big bad Camarilla. But the truth of the matter is that they're still vampires, and there's dangers in freedom just like there is in control. In this case, a lack of self-policing means that you have messed up Cleavers feeding on and ghouling their children, and even harming them in more directly physical ways (remember that one of them mentioned how easy it is for a kid to end up in the hospital from blood loss from all of this.)

                              Ironically for a chapter in the Anarchs book, it presents one of the most clear justifications for the necessity of the Camarilla's influence in curbing toxic behavior that often runs rampant within Vampire populations. Of course that's exactly how oppressive tyrannies get started in the first place, so it's never clear cut.

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                              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                                I wouldn't be surprised if it's the Viziers who practice magic now and at a much smaller number.

                                Both castes practice Magic. Quietus and blood Sorcery are the same thing in v5. Warriors just focus on combat magic. Vizers on other stuff. Its back to 2e.

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