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  • Originally posted by Black Flag View Post

    It looks like Kufic Arabic script, only with the letters disconnected and rotated in weird directions, including backwards. It doesn’t appear to say anything.

    The Ashirra book from years back did something similar with a handwritten Arabic font, so putting out pseudo-Arabic nonsense is pretty much the standard by this point. It is a shame, though, as it would not have been difficult to just spell out “Banu Haqim” in Kufic. Maybe that’s what they were trying to do, but to my eye (not fluent in Arabic but somewhat familiar), i don’t think they succeeded.
    Thank you. What did you think of the picture that went along with it? The bearded soldier with a helmet and shades?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
      I would read it not as retconning the Wan Kuei out of existence, so much as that they haven’t yet decided what to do with them, so they’re avoiding committing to anything at this point. They probably still exist, as they are clearly there in BJD, and V5 is not in the habit of retconning parts of the setting out of existence. But they are a part that merits a good hard look and a careful touch, as there were various problems with the execution the first time around.

      For example, if they’ve backed off the California invasion in the interest of not awkwardly stumbling into Yellow Peril territory over and over again, that’s fine with me.

      But I expect in any case they will stick with the name Wan Kuei, which is what BJD uses (“Kuei-Jin” being a linguistic impossibility if you know how Chinese and Japanese actually work).

      Can you tell me about the invasion of california? I probably wont pick up these books until they are in print, but I am prepping a san fran by night game,

      Comment


      • In any case, I withdrew my petition after a lengthy discussion with the author and that while I believe White Wolf should definitely alter the PDF to change the text back to what the author originally intended (which wouldn't make it great but wouldn't make it terrible), I'm of the mind it's the fault of the editor rather than the other matter. I also don't want to deal with the culture of negativity which has people attacking the authors who have to deal with fans who want to cost them their jobs, call them Nazis, or even doxx them.

        It's sickening.

        So, from now on, I'm 100% other material in the books.

        Anarchs

        + Damsel (from V:TM: Bloodlines) sometimes gets meals by luring Neo-Nazis on Tinder for hookups. That's hilarious.

        + I like the dark side of the Anarchs they show with things like the fact the totalitarian communist Brujah Council is still around and trying to take over Cuba. Communist Brujah are great potential antagonsts and I'm going to use a few next session.

        + I don't like the fact Malkavians are said to almost never join the Anarchs. That makes no sense to me whatsover.

        + I thought the "Cleaver" chapter was well done where we see the sickening behavior of Thin Blood parents as they pretend their behavior is still normal while feeding, ghouling, or abusing their kids. It's good Ghouls: Fatal Addiction-esque fiction.

        + Rudi's Gang pissed off both sides of the political divide so they must be doing something right. I think it says something about how alien some people find Islam, though, that they objected at length to the idea of a faithful Muslim character who was gay and that drank blood. You know, versus the issue he's a vampire who will have to kill people.

        Also, Khalid was a faithful Muslim back in 1992's Chicago by Night.

        + I like the fact they've brought back the Anarch Free States but it seems like they never reallly left and I wish they had referenced the Kuei-Jin.

        + I hope Theresa Voorman is actually Baron of Las Vegas rather than just living there. She's such an iconic character (and 6th generation) that she should be promoted to being a major player.

        + Kudos to the story where Jeanette enslaves people by seducing them, marrying them, and then proceeding them to force to work in her bar. That's one way of using your Harley Quinn-esque powers.

        + Starek casually talking about her love of diablerizing Camarilla vampires and how it is something the Anarchs approve of is the first sign these aren't your 90s "good guy" Anarchs. They're Sabbat lite and I think that actually works.

        + Theo Bell's status as an Anarch folk hero is really ironic and yet so true to life. I love how Salvador keeps trying to point out Theo Bell has been murdering Anarchs as an Archon his entire life and is not their friend.

        + I regret we don't get Washington D.C. covered given Marcus Vitel is "technically" an Anarch.

        + I love the discussion of Anarch Free States that are effectively identical to camarilla states. The pamphlet about a Anarch Council that decides all Embraces and requires permission is a great little place.

        + Victoria Ash seeing a carwreck as an exhibit where the Anarchs killed a Prince and missing its significance is awesome. She has really shined in 5E.

        Camarilla

        + I'm glad Paris, France has been established as completely and solidly Camarilla with no Anarch or Second Inquisition presence because I realized I had absolutely no place where I could base the organization in canon so my players knew where people were screwing their lives up from. This helps me have a "France is calling, you're fucked" in my last game.

        + The book, unlike the Anarchs, gave an explanation why Neonates and Ancilla serve the Camarilla. They are all about the Benjamens. Say what you will about the Camarilla but you get PAIIIID if you are loyal and even if you're not but are good at betrayal.

        + I like how the book has been following through with expanding the diversity of V5E. We get black, gay, women Princes (all three) and they're neonates to boot.

        + Joseph Peterson gets a bit more story about his time as Prince filled out.

        + Doyle Fincher is a character I did not expect to see in the Camarilla book, let alone as a Church of Caine founder but it makes sense. He was too nice a person for the Sabbat but too baroque and mystical for the Anarchs.

        Glad to see he's still alive.

        + The Cult of Mithras and ancestor cults of the Camarilla are awesome and you can tell they were made by Matthew Dawkins (not just because his Gentleman Gamer character was put inside
        them).

        + I liked the explanation that Life Boons aren't actually a small thing in the Camarilla but a literal oath you swear to honor until repaid.

        + Victoria Ash is FABULOUS and this is a better use of her in the book than 99% of everything else she's been in. I especially love how she compares all the clans as lovers and it's the Gangrel who she most disdains (over even Nosferatu).

        Both

        + Sadly, the typos and mistakes in formatting this book are appalling. Entire pages get cut off, lack of indentation, just outright mistakes. This shit would never pass muster at Crossroad Press.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

        Comment


        • I like the dark side of the Anarchs they show with things like the fact the totalitarian communist Brujah Council is still around and trying to take over Cuba. Communist Brujah are great potential antagonsts and I'm going to use a few next session.
          V5 Anarchs are historyless brainlets who think Carthage was a great vampire utopia that they should recreate. Carthage. The country ruled by the Baali.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
            V5 Anarchs are historyless brainlets who think Carthage was a great vampire utopia that they should recreate. Carthage. The country ruled by the Baali.
            In my games, I split the difference with the idea that Carthage started as a Humanity 10 experiment then Moloch corrupted Troile.

            And then everything was fucked.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
              V5 Anarchs are historyless brainlets who think Carthage was a great vampire utopia that they should recreate. Carthage. The country ruled by the Baali.
              That’s been a thing since V1. It’s just that later editions have tried to muddy the water by suggesting it wasn’t quite such a paradise, that the Bali were involved, etc. But this is the opposite of new; it’s basically the core Brujah thing since the very beginning.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
                it’s basically the core Brujah thing since the very beginning.
                This was always weird to be honest. Being young and rebellious vampire is a function of age, not clan. A Brujah Primogen, Brujah Archon, Brujah Prince - they are all The Man as much as any Tremere or Ventrue in those positions. You can't really claim to be a rebellious youth fighting the Power in the name of the People when the year is 1924 and your name is Joseph Stalin.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by RadioFreeDeath View Post


                  Can you tell me about the invasion of california? I probably wont pick up these books until they are in print, but I am prepping a san fran by night game,
                  There’s really nothing about it in the new books that I can see. V3 had the Wan Kuei establishing a colony in California and threatening the local free state to the point where by the time of V4 and Beckett’s Jyhad Diary it seemed they were doomed. Then in V5 it looks like they’ve survived and are going strong, no mention of the New Promise Mandarinate or anything.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Black Flag View Post

                    There’s really nothing about it in the new books that I can see. V3 had the Wan Kuei establishing a colony in California and threatening the local free state to the point where by the time of V4 and Beckett’s Jyhad Diary it seemed they were doomed. Then in V5 it looks like they’ve survived and are going strong, no mention of the New Promise Mandarinate or anything.

                    Good than I get free reign to make changes and can still keep it in canon

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                      Thank you. What did you think of the picture that went along with it? The bearded soldier with a helmet and shades?
                      As one of many pictures, fine. Probably not what I would have picked for the clan’s main image in the book if I were trying to challenge stereotypes. Then again, it’s hard to present a vizier as an upscale, suit-clad power broker and make it distinct from a Ventrue, without falling back on brown skin as the identifying feature of the Banu Haqim, which could also be a problem. Especially since their getting darker with age appears to have been quietly retconned away (thank goodness).

                      So I’m not sure I would have a better suggestion. Maybe someone in law or law enforcement?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                        This was always weird to be honest. Being young and rebellious vampire is a function of age, not clan. A Brujah Primogen, Brujah Archon, Brujah Prince - they are all The Man as much as any Tremere or Ventrue in those positions. You can't really claim to be a rebellious youth fighting the Power in the name of the People when the year is 1924 and your name is Joseph Stalin.
                        I love Vampire in general because of paradoxes like this.

                        You're completely right - A clan of Rebels should have the young rebelling against the ancient of even their own clan. But the elders control that rebellion and redirect it just like any other Tyrant; better even because they've been there and the clan controls emotions with Presence.
                        Hypocrisy Abounds, especially with Elders

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                          I love Vampire in general because of paradoxes like this.

                          You're completely right - A clan of Rebels should have the young rebelling against the ancient of even their own clan. But the elders control that rebellion and redirect it just like any other Tyrant; better even because they've been there and the clan controls emotions with Presence.
                          Hypocrisy Abounds, especially with Elders
                          I think it's actually a pyramid ironically.

                          Lucita, Vykos, and Tyler are all rebels who hate their Elders more than anyone else on the planet.

                          It's just they are elders to a bunch of Neonates.

                          And the Meths probably fear the Antediluvians the same way. Helena, certainly, loathes Menele primilary because she's afraid he's going to kill her.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            I think it's actually a pyramid ironically.
                            Lucita, Vykos, and Tyler are all rebels who hate their Elders more than anyone else on the planet.
                            It's just they are elders to a bunch of Neonates.
                            And the Meths probably fear the Antediluvians the same way. Helena, certainly, loathes Menele primilary because she's afraid he's going to kill her.
                            I'm sure that their behaviours are completely rational as being good "People" fighting the good fight, expecially when looking at them from the same level or from above. But from below, they would look like the elders they themselves are rebelling against.
                            And I think it goes all the way up to Caine personally.

                            But I do like the complexities of character, that you can be a Rebel against a Tyrant and a Tyrant as well at the same time. All completely rationally from each character's perspective.

                            D&D has such wonderful black and white rules for Good and Evil, with powers to detect where someone lies.
                            But that means you can commit genocide on a race (like Goblinoids) because the entire race is "Evil" and you are still "Good" No one will question it, and you'll probably even be rewarded by dieties.

                            But if you do that in Vampire, commit genocide on a group; even if they are all evil; then you too are evil. Maybe a little less, maybe a little more in someone's eyes.
                            Your actions have more depth.

                            Comment


                            • Ok, convinced myself to actually read the Cam book. I'm currently at the cults section, at the beginning, but I can already tell several things:

                              - The writing is not bad, in fact, it's enjoyable.

                              - I don't really like this Cam. All the already discussed points, I won't repeat them, I just don't like the whole gist of it. On itself, it wouldn't be bad, on the contrary, but it's not the Cam I liked.

                              - The separation from the Anarchs and the leaving of the Gangrel and the Brujah is too handwave-y at this point. The characters' justification that "it is as it always should have been" and such is shallow.

                              - While I like the idea of political negotiations and possible alliances with the Ashirra in the future, I don't like the PoV character's one-sided presentation, or straight-up adoration in some places.

                              - Speaking of which, I absolutely don't like this new "religious Camarilla" concept. Ok, one could say, that the justification and surrounding narrative is just one of the PoV's, not an objective one, but it's still bothering me deeply.

                              - Actually, reading the whole ancestor worship part, I think there might be some truth to the idea that the Tal'Mahe'ra took control of the Cam. It's absolutely their party line.

                              - Of course all the Justicars are women, except one and some kind of PoC on top of that (if I get the names right, which I might not) . Of course they are. No, I don't have problems with strong women characters, or PoC ones.

                              - There are some nice pictures. Still don't like the overall visual directon.


                              All in all, I think, the cults part exemplifies most of my problems with this edition's approach to the setting. That the Camarilla got religious groups is a nice addition, since I agree with the WW folks, it was too reserved to the Sabbat and Independents. But, as they presented it in the book, it's just too pervasive and a too big departing from the old material and portrayal of the sect. It just feels totally different and uncharacteristic and not in a good way, for me. Ditto the ancestor worship angle. Bloodlines and pedigree were always important in the upper echelons of the Cam, especially in some clans, but openly worshipping the Antes and making cults around methuselahs as an everyday occasion? Thanks, but no thanks.

                              Thinking about it, it reminds me to the portrayal of vampiric society in the Underworld movies a lot more, than the Camarilla from older editions.
                              Last edited by PMárk; 11-15-2018, 05:06 PM.


                              If nothing worked, then let's think!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                Anarchs

                                + Damsel (from V:TM: Bloodlines) sometimes gets meals by luring Neo-Nazis on Tinder for hookups. That's hilarious.
                                Goth gods, Damsel annoyed the living hell out of me in Bloodlines. If there is a negative-stereotype SJW character in Bloodlines and in the whole Vampire universe, Damsel is. Yes, I'm aware of the irony that the game was made a decade before "SJW" became a thing. She's still horrible, on the "love to hate" level.





                                If nothing worked, then let's think!

                                Comment

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