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[V5] Camarilla Sourcebook + Blood Sorcery

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  • [V5] Camarilla Sourcebook + Blood Sorcery

    For those already reading the Camarilla Sourcebook, are there any new information on the Tremere, Thaumaturgy/Blood Sorcery and its Secondary Paths that might be worth sharing? Are there new Amalgam powers (even non-sorcerous), or new Rituals in the book?

    I'm still on the fence about the book, and knowing how these were done might help me decide. Thanks

  • #2
    The Banu Haqim are in there.
    There are a couple of Assamite rituals.
    There are new loresheets.

    There are no new Thaumaturgy paths or anything else.

    The rest of the Cam book is the Cam's fluff, setting, changes in the new metaplot.

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    • #3
      Really, Tremere players have been hit hard by V5...

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      • #4
        Originally posted by valismedsen View Post
        Really, Tremere players have been hit hard by V5...
        Considering they had the equivalent of dozens of unique-ish Disciplines they weren't sharing with the other children, and now don't even have the Pyramid breathing down their necks? Something had to give.

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        • #5
          Yeah, I am very pleased with the toning down of the Uber-Discipline that Thaumaturgy used to be.

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          • #6
            Yes, the Tremere were nerfed. Yes, that's a good thing. And I say that as someone who is currently playing a Tremere in a V20 game, and I love her to pieces. At only the third level of Blood, and a little planning, I can make myself as powerful as a Antediluvian for an hour or as powerful as a Methuselah for a few hours. Now, throw on secondary paths at the ridiculously low cost of Current Level x4, and you can definitely become overpowered very very fast. Now, what I would like to see, and what I do think we will get over time, is some of the old individual path abilities as options, so that you can easily customize your Tremere to be different sorts of blood sorcerers by choosing from a wider variety of powers for your five selections. And we will probably continue to get more rituals as we go. But for the time being, it isn't hard to adapt some of the old paths and rituals as home brew options for your players.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by CrackedMan View Post
              Yeah, I am very pleased with the toning down of the Uber-Discipline that Thaumaturgy used to be.
              Just two additions.
              One: It is Über-this and that. Ü is an Umlaut and you cannot just use u, because there are differences in meaning. e.g. Mull is mull or lint (depends on the topic) in German, but Müll means rubbish.
              Two: If you consider Thau an Über-disci, then your Storyteller simply sucks. Neither Thaumaturgy nor the Tremere are overpowered, if in your chronicle that is the case, the ST made serious mistakes. I am truly pissed at the nerfing of Thaumaturgy and the Warlocks, because it simply was unneeded. at the same time, the Ventrue got a boost in that their Clan weakness was even made lighter than anything.

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              • #8
                To be fair thaumaturgy was Uber Broken even more than celerity extra actions and the tremere needed a nerf.
                • The proff is the path of conjuration is broken as F*ck and would allow at level 1 to technically kill methusaleahs.At level 5 you can just make nukes.
                • Path of the blood allowed you to try dominating almost everything plus extra.
                • Path of the mind allowed you to fly or keep your enemies trapped in the celling while you shoot them with your dragonbreath rounds etc...
                • That without mention the rituals
                All that without taking in acount the superstructure of the clan , the two other disciplines of the clan (Auxpex and Dominate wich are good too) the fact that it survived pissing of a tradition + 4 clans and the diablerie of an antediluvians becuase of plot etc...

                Another point is if the nerf needed to be that hardcore personally I would have made thaumaturgy a full ritual discipline in line to what happens in Requiem with cruac and theban sorcery.Some paths would have changes for example the path of conjuration would become an aportation ritual that allows you to teleport to your location inanimate things that you have marked with your blood in a ritual.Creo ignem would be a quick ritual that requieres you to cut yourself to expel fire from the cut etc...

                Versatile , but with limits , not being able to do everything and fully ritual that´s how thaumaturgy should be.That way the warlocks would get some love but also won´t be that broken.
                Last edited by Leandro16; 11-07-2018, 10:06 PM.


                Hunger pool

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                  To be fair thaumaturgy was Uber Broken even more than celerity extra actions and the tremere needed a nerf.
                  • The proff is the path of conjuration is broken as F*ck and would allow at level 1 to technically kill methusaleahs.At level 5 you can just make nukes.
                  • Path of the blood allowed you to try dominating almost everything plus extra.
                  • Path of the mind allowed you to fly or keep your enemies trapped in the celling while you shoot them with your dragonbreath rounds etc...
                  I'm not sure what you have in mind for summoning at level 1, but in all odds the Methuselah has prevented you from doing it, being able to do it, wanting to do it or even thinking about doing it.
                  Yes, it's possible to create a nuke with level 3. For someone who was literally a nuclear physicist who knew how to build them already. Conjuration lets you creat things that you understand enough to build anyway (Or a human replica at 5)

                  In the WOD, having a terrorist cell having home built one without Thaumaturgy isn't impossible. Hell, if a 14 year old boy can make a reactor in his back yard in real life
                  https://www.wearethemighty.com/histo...ousehold-items
                  then the obviously hardest bit of getting fissionable materials is possible without magic.

                  There are a whole host of things in game that control access to or limit the use of Thaum. And plenty of ways to get past it.
                  MotM 5? I have Potence 5. Not only does that make me strong enough to break your grip and jump to get you countering the power; I can pummel you super hard.

                  The paths and rituals do mean that smart players can think around the solutions better. But I've always liked being rewarded for thinking through a solution

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ideon View Post
                    Considering they had the equivalent of dozens of unique-ish Disciplines they weren't sharing with the other children, and now don't even have the Pyramid breathing down their necks? Something had to give.

                    Honestly they had the perfect opportunity in adding multiple powers in each discipline.. and then "Well you can only take one"

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                      I'm not sure what you have in mind for summoning at level 1, but in all odds the Methuselah has prevented you from doing it, being able to do it, wanting to do it or even thinking about doing it.
                      Yes, it's possible to create a nuke with level 3. For someone who was literally a nuclear physicist who knew how to build them already. Conjuration lets you creat things that you understand enough to build anyway (Or a human replica at 5)
                      Nothing prevents the PC from buying some dots in science to make the nuke or watching youtube to summon things like this.
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckSoDW2-wrc

                      If you manage to summon that you win against almost anything even a metusaleah and yes , he may be able to kill you before but only if he knows what you are gonna do and until auxpex 9 with not every methusaleah posses you still got a small chance.Mitras for example doesnt even posses auxpex (something i change of course) and has the overconfident flaw.

                      Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                      There are a whole host of things in game that control access to or limit the use of Thaum. And plenty of ways to get past it.
                      MotM 5? I have Potence 5. Not only does that make me strong enough to break your grip and jump to get you countering the power; I can pummel you super hard.
                      In v20 at least the roll to break the grip of movement of the mind was made with willpower not with strengh so your Potence does nothing and in the moment you manage to escape the rounds of dragon breath will have destroyed you 7 automatic levels of agravated damage.Losing a turn or being far from the danger is a big thing in masquerade becuase his metagame is ultra-agresive.

                      That without mentioning that I can use rituals to cause you agg damage with burning sword , run away with mask of sadows or ambush you , or slow you with circles of protection etc...

                      Not to mention the other disciplines of the clan tremere Auxpex and Dominate or the fact that picking a fight against a tremere is picking a fight against the chantry.Thaumaturgy was broken and needed a nerf.Another thing is that it didnt needed to be that harsh.


                      Hunger pool

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Günther View Post
                        Just two additions.
                        One: It is Über-this and that. Ü is an Umlaut and you cannot just use u, because there are differences in meaning. e.g. Mull is mull or lint (depends on the topic) in German, but Müll means rubbish.
                        Two: If you consider Thau an Über-disci, then your Storyteller simply sucks. Neither Thaumaturgy nor the Tremere are overpowered, if in your chronicle that is the case, the ST made serious mistakes. I am truly pissed at the nerfing of Thaumaturgy and the Warlocks, because it simply was unneeded. at the same time, the Ventrue got a boost in that their Clan weakness was even made lighter than anything.
                        For Non Germanics, actually adding an Umlaut on our keyboards is a pain, even if you know how to do it; and for our comprehension, both are correct with the meaning of "Über"
                        English is a bastard language,

                        Originally posted by James D. Nicoll
                        The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                          Nothing prevents the PC from buying some dots in science to make the nuke or watching youtube to summon things like this.
                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckSoDW2-wrc
                          If you rule that "A few dots in science" (•• College: You’re familiar with the major theories.) to be enough to make these compounds, or "A Nuke" then I personally see that as a problem
                          I would only allow a nuke at 4 with a specialty in Nuclear physics (And you should see that coming as an issue when they ask)
                          Many of the compounds would need more than level 3 (Being able to Teach High-School Science) to understand how to create or synthesise the chemicals (With appropriate specialities in Chemistry or Biochemistry, depending) These are things that would take ages to learn from scratch, require regular schooling, not just night school, or mentoring by someone that understands your limitations (Knows that you're a vampire) so the Tremere Elders are going to know what you have planned. If a PC comes in at character creation with science 4+ and appropriate specialties, the Tremere know what you're up to when you ask to learn Conjuring.

                          Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                          In v20 at least the roll to break the grip of movement of the mind was made with willpower not with strengh so your Potence does nothing and in the moment you manage to escape the rounds of dragon breath will have destroyed you 7 automatic levels of agravated damage.Losing a turn or being far from the danger is a big thing in masquerade becuase his metagame is ultra-agresive.
                          My bad on how to break it. It can also be broken with a good beating, like throwing something at, or shooting the Thaumaturge.
                          And where are you getting 7 Automatic levels of Agg from?

                          Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                          That without mentioning that I can use rituals to cause you agg damage with burning sword , run away with mask of sadows or ambush you , or slow you with circles of protection etc...
                          Agg damage - Protean and Quietus, Mask of Shadows - Obfuscate, but it's better by far. S
                          "Once the warding circle is established, any ghoul/kindred who attempts to cross its boundary feels a tingle on his skin and a slight breeze on his face — a successful Intelligence + Occult roll (difficulty 8) identifies this as a warding circle. If the ghoul attempts to press on, he must roll more successes on a Willpower roll (difficulty of the caster’s Thaumaturgy rating + 3) than the caster rolled when establishing the ward. Failure indicates that the ward blocks his passage and inflicts three dice of bashing damage, and his next roll to attempt to enter the circle is at +1 difficulty. If the ghoul/kindred leaves the circle and attempts to enter it again, he must repeat the roll. Attempts to leave the circle are not blocked."

                          It's a small circle, from 10 to about 50 ft max. The WP dif is 8 max for first attempt and 3 dice of bashing is going to be soaked.
                          Even if it stops the vampire; go around, shoot through, send mortals in with a gun.

                          Yes, they have the advantage of preparedness and versatility of mystic powers. But that just means that you've got to be smart to deal with a Smart Adversary, where in dealing with say, a Brujah thug, you could be smarter or a better thug.

                          Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                          Not to mention the other disciplines of the clan tremere Auxpex and Dominate or the fact that picking a fight against a Tremere is picking a fight against the chantry.Thaumaturgy was broken and needed a nerf.Another thing is that it didnt needed to be that harsh.
                          Just as with any clan, but if the Tremere Chantry think the Tremere done-fucked-up, they'll deal with it for you instead.


                          They are a challenge to face, bringing a wider range of difficulties and tactics to bear against a PC. But the only reason they become overpowered in a game, is because the ST has allowed them to buy being too giving.
                          *Editions where rituals cost nothing did skew things a bit though*

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                          • #14
                            Thaumaturgy needed a nerf but not one that huge as I said my nerf would have been in line of making the discipline more ritual like cruac and theban sorcery but keeping the versatility.That would also make the blood magic more mystic and different from a discipline and more in line with his theme . It´s a win win.

                            Some things should be replaced conjuration for example needed to be changed into an aportation ritual.

                            Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                            My bad on how to break it. It can also be broken with a good beating, like throwing something at, or shooting the Thaumaturge.
                            And where are you getting 7 Automatic levels of Agg from?
                            A shotgun deals 7 levels of automatic damage if you succed the roll to hit , that amount of damage is upgraded to agravated damage.
                            As I said masquerade meta-game is ultra-agresive and unbalanced.

                            Losing one turn is a great deal (Serpentis 1 is a huge deal for that)

                            There are paths that allow to deal agg by insulting something on his facebook (path of curses or something similar from anarch unbound , you only need an image to yell at it , a photo or a record works too).

                            With path of conjuration you can not only one shot things pretty easy but also get very quickly resources and money.Just summon gold or silver and sells it.

                            Not to mention the amount of favours you can attain with some paths (being able to summon whatever others need is huge) or the mooks you can attain etc...

                            Thaumaturgy is broken and it needed balance becuase if you know what you are doing (and that´s not really difficult) you are gold.

                            Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                            Agg damage - Protean and Quietus, Mask of Shadows - Obfuscate, but it's better by far. S
                            It doubt it , protean need a turn to release the claws the burning sword not and doesnt even cost vitae , if it´s a katana my attacks are done at diff 5.At no cost also if the katana is my talisman I can do +4 strengh agg damage at diff 5 and I can also insta use rituals as long as I have the materials becuase my ritual casting time is reduced to 1 turn.

                            Focus to principle vitae also makes me be a blood bank as long as I have pocket change or candy etc...

                            About the warding circle is about making you lose time , this in a ultraagresive game is huge.

                            Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                            Just as with any clan, but if the Tremere Chantry think the Tremere done-fucked-up, they'll deal with it for you instead.
                            The tremere are more protective becuase that is their main strengh and the reason they survived before devoloping thaumaturgy.The fuck-up has to be very big for the clan to choose not to help.In others clans it varies more if they are willing to help or not sometimes you will find yourself alone.

                            Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                            *Editions where rituals cost nothing did skew things a bit though*
                            Yes , the sheer amount of cheap options it gives make it an Uber Discipline.

                            Thaumaturgy not only needed a nerf , it needed a rework along all the system another thing is if what they have with it in V5 is the correct thing , the answer from my point of view is not.(The only good mechanic system of all vampire editions is Requiem 2ED , the others at least do their work , V5 is horrible).


                            Hunger pool

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                              For Non Germanics, actually adding an Umlaut on our keyboards is a pain, even if you know how to do it; and for our comprehension, both are correct with the meaning of "Über"
                              English is a bastard language,
                              For the poor sods out there without Umlauts on their keyboards, there is a solution. Write ue, oe or ae, which in German is "the patch" for those without Umlauts. e.g. Ue parses in German as an Ersatz for Ü, except in some old placenames like Soest. Back in Old Standard German (6th-10th century) writing oe (or ue, ae) was an Ersatz for the Umlaut like today, but there was another option as a vovel lengthener, which today is used only extreme rarely. So in the case of Soest, it is not "Söst", but Sost with a long o.
                              But that is not something most foreigners will run across often, so writing ue, ae and oe works like a charm.

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