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  • #16
    Originally posted by Günther View Post
    Just two additions.
    One: It is Über-this and that. Ü is an Umlaut and you cannot just use u, because there are differences in meaning. e.g. Mull is mull or lint (depends on the topic) in German, but Müll means rubbish.
    Two: If you consider Thau an Über-disci, then your Storyteller simply sucks. Neither Thaumaturgy nor the Tremere are overpowered, if in your chronicle that is the case, the ST made serious mistakes. I am truly pissed at the nerfing of Thaumaturgy and the Warlocks, because it simply was unneeded. at the same time, the Ventrue got a boost in that their Clan weakness was even made lighter than anything.
    1) I was on my phone and despite not using the Umlaut, you knew what I meant, so making a fuss over it is just petty.
    2) I am generally the ST, but that's regardless. I am not the only person who feels it is overpowered and that's all well and good if you don't think they are. I don't really give two sh*ts. I don't have any interest in getting into a debate as to whether or not Thaumaturgy is overpowered, that's just my opinion that it is. If you do feel it necessary to continue discussing how Thaumaturgy is not overpowered, please try to actually make an argument, not just tell me that I suck.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
      A shotgun deals 7 levels of automatic damage if you succed the roll to hit , that amount of damage is upgraded to agravated damage.
      V20 - p 281 - Shotgun Damage 8 dice No idea where you're finding Dragonsbreath turning it to levels and Agg, would you mind giving me a reference, maybe I've not read that book or forgotten it.

      Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
      Losing one turn is a great deal (Serpentis 1 is a huge deal for that)
      Can be, yeah. But using MotM is a full turn to TRY and ranged-grapple with your victim too.

      Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
      There are paths that allow to deal agg by insulting something on his facebook (path of curses or something similar from anarch unbound , you only need an image to yell at it , a photo or a record works too).
      Neither path of curses, or path of blood's curse can do that. Prehaps you could reference the details to go with these claims, or maybe the games you've been in have run things with house rules

      Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
      With path of conjuration you can not only one shot things pretty easy but also get very quickly resources and money.Just summon gold or silver and sells it.

      Not to mention the amount of favours you can attain with some paths (being able to summon whatever others need is huge) or the mooks you can attain etc...
      I disagree with "one shot things pretty easy" as per my last post, but please show how I'm wrong, if you believe so.
      Yes you can summon gold and the like, and sell it. But that has complications if you have a large volume of previously undocumented gold reserves; and even selling it has it's issues. Who's going to buy it.

      Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
      Thaumaturgy is broken and it needed balance becuase if you know what you are doing (and that´s not really difficult) you are gold.
      Yes it has a broad range of applications. Much broader than any other discipline, een necromancy which has the same set up of paths and rituals. But it's the implications of the actions that make it difficult to use for the Tremere Magos.

      Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
      It doubt it , protean need a turn to release the claws the burning sword not and doesnt even cost vitae , if it´s a katana my attacks are done at diff 5.At no cost also if the katana is my talisman I can do +4 strengh agg damage at diff 5 and I can also insta use rituals as long as I have the materials becuase my ritual casting time is reduced to 1 turn.
      The claws are automatic (Doesn't take up your turn) but take a turn to get out, so it's not ready in round one unless you're ambusing someone, sure.
      Katana? Again, where are those special rules. Sword Damage str + 2 according to p280. Claws are str + 1 and you don't alert the police by having hands compared to "Sword"
      You can only insta cast rituals with the Dark ages version, not the Modern day version

      It seems like you might be taking all the best bits from every edition of the game (And House rules) in order to make your argument.

      I agree that it can be problematic when there is not considered follow on from the actions (or obviously also not controlled when people are using multiple versions of it at once)

      Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
      Focus to principle vitae also makes me be a blood bank as long as I have pocket change or candy etc...
      About the warding circle is about making you lose time , this in a ultraagresive game is huge.
      Focused Baubles - Which others can use as a sorcery link, takes time to put in your mouth and can be taken from you. Yes usually preparedness is an advantage, whatever preparation exists
      Warding - I could prepare an area with Claymores in advance too. no XP cost to learn, works on all types of supernaturals (as well as mortals) and doesn't take up a whole night to prepare per creature you're targeting, it has the same downside that you need to lead them in there, but will do a whole lot more damage to your target. And technically can last more than a year and a day.

      Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
      The tremere are more protective becuase that is their main strengh and the reason they survived before devoloping thaumaturgy. The fuck-up has to be very big for the clan to choose not to help.In others clans it varies more if they are willing to help or not sometimes you will find yourself alone.
      As much as any player of any character that has earned respect/boons or willing to pay boons for the service. Why do Tremere characters get favours without the expectation in return of them when other characters don't? That's not anything I've read in any book.

      Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
      Yes , the sheer amount of cheap options it gives make it an Uber Discipline.

      Thaumaturgy not only needed a nerf , it needed a rework along all the system another thing is if what they have with it in V5 is the correct thing , the answer from my point of view is not.(The only good mechanic system of all vampire editions is Requiem 2ED , the others at least do their work , V5 is horrible).
      A lot of what Thaumaturgy lets you do with rituals can be done without, just a little bit harder. But with ST control of the options the Player has access to with In game reason of what the Chantry gives them or even has access to in the Chantry to give away; and with a mind for repercussions of the actions possible with Thaumaturgy, I don't personally think it makes it any better IN ITS FIELD than other disciplines in theirs.

      Comment


      • #18
        Illithid

        Dragon breath deals Agg damage becuase it is incendiary ammo ,and all with fire deals Agg to kindred , there is a reason for Theo Bell wielding a dragonbreath shotgun.The previus prince of DC and Vitel (Pre Becket Jyhad diary resurrection) was killed via dragon breaths thanks to that.But you are right it would be 8 levels of damage not dice.

        A tremere with clan support , ghouls and domiante will doubtly have problems selling the gold , also he can say he found a treasure in Spain by law that means you owe 50% of it if found in other people propierty 100% minus tax if you find it in your own propierty.Other countries tend to regulate the finding of a treasure in a similar manner.

        What is true is the insta casting part is from DAV20 the latest core of Vampire without taking into account V5 and that´s the reason I used it , for the updated rules but even with it a burning sword blessed katana does Strengh + 2 Agg damage at diff 5 in the same turn i activate the power instead of needing to wait one turn for them to pop and pierces thought serpentis 4 so way better than protean 2 and also less costly.

        About the principle of focus vitae , yes they can be used as a magical link to attack you but then you are dealing with blood sorcerers or even worse awakened mages and the point here is that thaumaturgy is broken compared to other disciplines.Neither does that negates the fact that with that cheap ritual you are a blood bank.

        About the dealing Agg by yelling to a photo is the path of the evil eye , is a path mainly used by the practitioners of Dur An Ki but can be used by thaumaturges too (but the tremere have less users)

        -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        That said let´s center in the point in question is thaumaturgy broken or not?

        For me something is broken when it allows no oposition , little oposition or the cost of adquiring it´s low compared to the other options of similar efficacy

        That happens with thaumaturgy ,it´s too much good compared to others thing i can buy with the same xp also kinda cheap as you recognized when talking about rituals.

        So a nerf is needed or I should say a Rework and for me that rework comes by making it a full ritual disciplines this has advantajes and replacing some things with others more balanced the advantajes of this are
        • It will feel more like blood magic becuase the enfasis in the ritual part instead of being superpowers
        • The paths do not disapear they just become fast rituals that can be summoned in a turn.
        • Blood Sorcerers loss raw power but win versatibility and unpredictability , instead of being forced to learn even the levels of a path they don´t want now they will be buying the rituals they want amplificating their arsenal and options.

        PD:I just want to remember that I am not defending what V5 did to the tremere clan mechanicly and metaplot wise as someone before said tremere players had been hit hard.


        Hunger pool

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        • #19
          Originally posted by CrackedMan View Post
          1) I was on my phone and despite not using the Umlaut, you knew what I meant, so making a fuss over it is just petty.
          2) I am generally the ST, but that's regardless. I am not the only person who feels it is overpowered and that's all well and good if you don't think they are. I don't really give two sh*ts. I don't have any interest in getting into a debate as to whether or not Thaumaturgy is overpowered, that's just my opinion that it is. If you do feel it necessary to continue discussing how Thaumaturgy is not overpowered, please try to actually make an argument, not just tell me that I suck.
          For the first point: I was not petty, since U does not equal Ü, it was just a hint.
          Onto the second point: Chummer, no master just falls from the sky. When I started to ST, I was run over once or twice by more experienced players. But I learned and it did not continue. I am a ST (not only VtM but other RPGs too) for over 20 years and my main character in VtM is a Tremere. They are not overpowered and I am truly pissed that a bunch of whiny noobs (players and STs alike) brought WW to frak them over in V5.
          But I am not writing here to annoy you, but to give you some tips how to keep the powers levelled. What most overwhelmed STs overlook, are the restraints of Thaumaturgy. Yes, the Tremere have a ton of cheap rituals, but a) they mostly need stuff for it and b) most need time to prepare. Roleplay it! If your Tremere player goes overboard with ritual preparations, remind him of how many hours in game he will need to do so. He´s simply away, "incommunicado" since he is rocking his rituals he believes he needs online, not with the coterie. Let him prepare some essentials outgame, that is okay, but if he tries to prepare a bunch of high-levle rituals ingame, tell him the drawbacks if he does. It is one thing to roleplay a ritual preparation that is needed, another to prepare an arsenal without forethought. Your player should inform you which rituals he likes to have online and you tell how many are ok to be prepared outgame and how long t will take ingame to prepare the rest. Be fair, no fraking the player having good ideas, but remind him of the time he is out of play, because the rituals keep him away ingame.
          Next thing on the ritual front is the stuff you need for it. Most might be easily attainable, but some things or the amount of them is not! Remind your players if he has the background to simply use it (e.g. my main Char owns a large butcher, so he has a lot of bones,flesh and blood at hand. Most rituals work with any blood so a steady supply is great. Keeping a dozen Rutor´s Hands online is easy with a butcher at beck and call) or make a story out of getting an obscure ritual compound.

          Unlike many discipline powers, most Thau path powers always cost blood and there are restrictions. Take path of conjuring: Yes, you can conjure nearly anything, but you have to roughly know how it is made! So conjuring a kniife is something that is not difficult, but conjuring an A-Bomb needs the Thaumaturge to know roughly what it does and how it is made. I doubt there are that many Thaumaturges running around who can conjure one. (My main character for instance made it a point to learn the production of "Substanz N" or Chlorine Triflouride, so he can conjure it when needed.) These are just a few tips.

          Comment


          • #20
            Thaumaturgy as it was in V20 had incredible versatility and power in comparison to pretty much all other disciplines but this was, at least in my experience, often counteracted by the way the Tremere clan worked, with almost no ability for neonates to resist orders from above. This meant that if you had Thaumaturgy you were often stuck doing work for the local chantry with very little time over for your own ambitions, and pretty much anything you actually achieved would be handed over to the clan.

            Given the state of the Tremere in V5 it feels like nerfing Thaumaturgy had to happen or else they would have the most powerful discipline in the game without any of the drawbacks that were present in past editions.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Kristviljan View Post
              Thaumaturgy as it was in V20 had incredible versatility and power in comparison to pretty much all other disciplines but this was, at least in my experience, often counteracted by the way the Tremere clan worked, with almost no ability for neonates to resist orders from above. This meant that if you had Thaumaturgy you were often stuck doing work for the local chantry with very little time over for your own ambitions, and pretty much anything you actually achieved would be handed over to the clan.

              Given the state of the Tremere in V5 it feels like nerfing Thaumaturgy had to happen or else they would have the most powerful discipline in the game without any of the drawbacks that were present in past editions.
              Everyone and their mother could get Blood magic in v20. Anarchs had theirown magic. Assamites, Settites, Giovanni, Ravnos, Ventrue, Tzim, you can't even say Tremere had an easier time casting because each of those clans had a Blood magic in clan variant. More clans had blood magic that didn't and those that didn't innately could just get them from factions.

              V5 at least makes it a monopoly again almost.. I mean Anarchs lost their 4 types of blood magic. the Ministry lost Ahku


              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                Illithid
                Dragon breath deals Agg damage becuase it is incendiary ammo ,and all with fire deals Agg to kindred , there is a reason for Theo Bell wielding a dragonbreath shotgun.The previus prince of DC and Vitel (Pre Becket Jyhad diary resurrection) was killed via dragon breaths thanks to that. But you are right it would be 8 levels of damage not dice.
                I understand your assertion for why it should be Agg (at full pool for the weapon) but I'm asking for any book related source for the decision, otherwise it's a house rule that you're using to justify why something is broken. I say that the house rule is broken.
                If you look at the Fire and Burns Section p297 V20 - Health Levels a turn - 3 is for Raging Inferno; entire body is in flames.

                Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                A tremere with clan support , ghouls and domiante will doubtly have problems selling the gold , also he can say he found a treasure in Spain by law that means you owe 50% of it if found in other people propierty 100% minus tax if you find it in your own propierty.Other countries tend to regulate the finding of a treasure in a similar manner.
                Yes, it can be done, with the right backing or knowledge. I am trying to say that unless you have the points on the sheet showing those contacts, then you are assuming that being a particular Clan suddenly gets a whole lot of effective background points for free. Why is that, it's not in the rules. Sure another clan mate could do you a favour as equally as a Ventrue or Toreador, but they'll ask for something in return.

                Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                What is true is the insta casting part is from DAV20 the latest core of Vampire without taking into account V5 and that´s the reason I used it , for the updated rules but even with it a burning sword blessed katana does Strengh + 2 Agg damage at diff 5 in the same turn i activate the power instead of needing to wait one turn for them to pop and pierces thought serpentis 4 so way better than protean 2 and also less costly.
                DAV20 and V20 are different systems, just a much as V5 is a different system (well, not as much as the change to V5) but if you're using every version of Thaumaturgy at the same time for your comparison, then yes it's going to broken.
                Just like taking every version of Celerity, you could say that it adds dots equal to celerity to your dex AND gives you an extra action per dot for 1 blood, AND lets you break initiative, and give extra levels in your defence pool. But that is 3 different versions of it.
                And still; where is your magic-Super Katana coming from? The bonus on your burning blade lasts a few rounds before it's gone,

                Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                About the principle of focus vitae , yes they can be used as a magical link to attack you but then you are dealing with blood sorcerers or even worse awakened mages and the point here is that thaumaturgy is broken compared to other disciplines.Neither does that negates the fact that with that cheap ritual you are a blood bank.

                About the dealing Agg by yelling to a photo is the path of the evil eye , is a path mainly used by the practitioners of Dur An Ki but can be used by thaumaturges too (but the tremere have less users)
                OK, lets ignore some the downsides of the power if the "other side" doesn't have thaumaturgy.
                Do you know what counter magic does to all those pellets; bamf gone. A decent pick pocket, gone with one or two of the critical components for rituals.
                Even without that - The power doesn't let you ingest more than the normal feeding allowances - 3/round and your opponents will see you eating them in combat.
                So when grappled- you're stuffed. if you're using hands for combat, you're stuffed. If they target the bag or necklace etc that have these tokens, you're stuffed.
                Split actions for an extra reasonable gunshot or punch and the Tremere will probably take 3 damage or more that they can heal from the extra blood that turn. (Lets assume they've also got the gen or Blood Potency buff to spend an extra 3/turn.)

                You've also got the issue of feeding twice as much as other kindred in the city in order to bank 1 per night. It takes a lot of time, or a very low humanity to be able to bank too many.

                As to Evil Eye, I can only see it for Dur-An-Kai, not Tremere Sorcerers and there is no wording that says you don't need to meet the normal criteria of Line of sight. In fact I'd infer that the victim needs to hear the curse as well. And there is rules in the system for rituals to weaken or void a curse from taking effect.

                Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                That said let´s center in the point in question is thaumaturgy broken or not?

                For me something is broken when it allows no oposition , little oposition or the cost of adquiring it´s low compared to the other options of similar efficacy
                Ok Sure. Lets use that as the definition
                I've tried to point out the downsides, or opposition to a lot of the powers you've brought up, firstly pretty much none of the ones you've listed actually work in one Ruleset as you've mentioned.
                But lets see how the definition works against other powers -
                First Up. Celerity. Just one version I'll go with Revised - Spend a blood point to gain your celerity as extra actions.
                Level 5, that is 6 actions to an opponents 1. At full dice pool. Now only one of those can be a mental action but lets look at a sword wielding speed freak.
                No defensive actions, or a split pool down to a couple of dice per defence means that you're getting hit, each hit then adds successes to hit to your strength and weapon damage.
                Without having the same power set, the only real defence is Fortitude, rolling a few extra dice to reduce what you take. 5 Celerity versus No celerity, 95% odds on No celerity vampire being dead or in torpor in the first round.
                Otherwise, in V20
                Animalism 5 - Send someone in to frenzy, no resistance, not trigger then to roll to resist. There goes your character being able to use most powers.
                Auspex 4 - sure, it costs a willpower, but if I ask, "what's you're greatest weakness" you get the honest answer. It may be a little muddled from the description, but you'll be able to destroy anyone you want to, so long as you have willpower. Build the right nature, and you could get willpower back for revealing the secret.
                Celerity V20 - Bonus dice to your dexterity dice pool means that things like a head shot or Neck shot are more likely to succeed as well, even though you spend 1 blood per action instead of just 1 for all actions.
                Chimerstry - has always been an issue.but at 5 you can put someone in torpor. Defence is having Auspex at the same or higher level
                Dementaion none of the powers have a resistance as such, but making someone frenzy can be resisted in the usual manner in this case. Level 5 requires a willpower per success to end prematurely. And the cost is only a blood point and a turn talking to the Victim. they won't have that Willpower for long.
                Dominate - even covering your eyes doesn't prevent this as of V20, and if the Dominate user has as many points of generation as character creation allows, the only defence is Blood Path; Blood of potency being in effect defensively before the dominate is used. No other defence.

                I'm going to stop going through V20 now, I think I've proved my point. There are plenty of powers that have no or little defence, and most here are more effective than any power or ritual of equivalent level

                From all of this, I don't categorise Thaumaturgy as "Broken" because there are so many other things that can be equally broken, and if most disciplines are Broken; then none are.
                It is one that needs to be watched by the ST, controlled and may be problematic; but same goes if you let any player spend XP wherever they like without looking at what they're spending it on.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Günther View Post
                  But I am not writing here to annoy you, but to give you some tips how to keep the powers levelled. What most overwhelmed STs overlook, are the restraints of Thaumaturgy.
                  Do you think we can call anything in an RPG overpowered? You can add artificial restraints (as opposed to mechanical ones) to anything.

                  Take path of conjuring: Yes, you can conjure nearly anything, but you have to roughly know how it is made! So conjuring a kniife is something that is not difficult, but conjuring an A-Bomb needs the Thaumaturge to know roughly what it does and how it is made. I doubt there are that many Thaumaturges running around who can conjure one. (My main character for instance made it a point to learn the production of "Substanz N" or Chlorine Triflouride, so he can conjure it when needed.) These are just a few tips.
                  Probably the worst example path you could have picked because it is still so poorly written. 'Roughly know how it is made' is not a good metric. In-fact, the book indicates just using a picture and knowledge skills is entirely possible, just at a higher difficulty.

                  The conjurer must also have some degree of familiarity with the object he wishes to call forth. Simply working from a picture or imagination calls for a higher difficulty, while objects with which the character is intimately familiar (such as the knife described above) may actually lower the difficulty, at the Storyteller’s discretion.
                  When a player rolls to conjure something, the successes gained on the roll indicate the quality of the summoned object. One success yields a shoddy, imperfect creation, while five successes garner the caster a nearly perfect replica.
                  Particularly complex items often require a Knowledge roll (Crafts, Science, Technology, etc.) in addition to the basic roll.
                  Nothing even about a specialty needed. So heck, read a Wikipedia article and have at it if you have the related skill. Unless we're getting into houseruling, it is a dumb one.



                  Anyway, I wouldn't even necessarily say Thaumaturgy overall in V20 was broken or overpowered (outside of some specific paths). But I'd say it probably had an unnecessary degree of bloat for what it was. I enjoy the V5 approach in regards to spreading out the utility of various disciplines more in varied sub-abilities. Does Thaumaturgy need three or four times as many sub-paths and rituals (someone else can total them up, but there are no doubt numerous) than what most disciplines have to be enticing? Is the game somehow better for it? You claim it wasn't needed to nerf Thaumaturgy. I'd say there's no need for it to have every path and ritual under the moon. Getting some iconic stuff would be nice, but I find this a step in a good direction.

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                  • #24
                    For me, regardless of the overpower of thaumaturgy by itself, what I find problematic is the fact that it destroyed the versatility innate to what thaumaturgy was. Yes, there was perhaps a bloat, but many path were thematic, and build in the cannon for at least the 3rd ed. So now Ur-Shulgi and Al-Ashrad are reduced to some ridiculous level, Etrius was just an old fart with lots of theories.....
                    Well, Ur-shulgi at least, since it seems that Al Ashrad, one of the main architect of the union of the BH and Cam, doesn't exist anymore.... And that "blood cultists" under Ur-Shulgi are the new baddies... So now, if I read correctly, it is not mainly the warriors and the Web of knives who go on purging the clan for the Avatar of Haquim, it's the sorcerers. Which is a total reverse of what was admitted in precedent canon....
                    I think it piss me more for that than the über-nerfing (nuclearized, I would say) of thaumaturgy. For Thaumaturgy to be more encompassing, holistic in its interpretation and capabilities, why not, but in this instance, there is nearly nothing left.
                    I know my argument isn't too articulated, but I didn't sleep so, I'm barely writing that coherently in my time off ^^'

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Thaumaturgy is like batman belt too many options some of them way better than what you can buy with the same XP and it is also very impredictable becuase it comes with rituals along the paths.

                      Also it isnt only good for combat , it is good for everything: prestation , running , prep time , buffing your comrades with rituals , getting clan prestige etc...Some paths are just plain broken (Path of Conjuration says hello)

                      Of course a thaumaturge can be beaten it can happen in a lot of ways but he has a great advantaje over his rivals becuase when their enemy has a trump card he has 5.Making it full ritual like in requiem is a good thematic nerf that doesnt eliminate the versatility.

                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      @Illithid

                      Countermagic:Yes it counters it , that is their purpourse and name but a clever thaumaturge can just use thaumaturgy to get favours to counter the counter.Also Clan tremere hates those outside the house that know countermagic so our dear thaumaturge has full clan support against this enemy.

                      Celerity is very good for combat or for running from it , (V20 celerity would be even better than Revised celerity against a thaumaturge becuase the extra dex dice would help to win the initiative) , but the thaumaturge still can teleport away choosing not to fight directly , making him loose a turn with a protection , summoning elementals to help , blocking it against a wall with movement of the mind , using creo ingme to make a wall of fire between him and the enemy that also triggers rotscheck , he can even buff himself with spirit thaumaturgy etc...

                      The thaumaturge can be defeated but he has way more options than the celerity user

                      Dominate:A very good weapon but also on the tremere moveset and can be countered by high willpower with is something that a thaumaturge would have high becuase it is what he usually rolls

                      Auxpex: is a really investigative and defensive power but again nothing that the tremere don´t have and also it doesnt allow you to ask the weakness of a characters it is just telepaty to read current thoughts and it is something that can be countered by WP with again the thaumaturge has very high

                      Animalism 5:A really good option to make the thaumaturge unable of casting paths but it can fail becuase manipulation + self control at diff 8 needing 3 success if the thaumaturge isnt alone is a litte bit more difficult to pull than a simple WP roll.It can fail if the thaumaturge has minions , wins the iniative or his beast chooses to run.Also it requires you to be near a frenzy or in frenzy to be able to summon it.

                      Chirmerstry:Can fail due to disbelief and the tremre got auxpex too

                      Dementation:It is done at the difficulty of the WP of the victim and depending of the number of succes the duration might be short making not worthy to expend the WP.Also doesnt erases the rituals prepared before hand.

                      Even the LaSombra Hentai death machine can be beaten by thaumaturgy (Burning blade , creo ignem , teleporting away , summoning fosforous etc...)

                      PD:About the shotgun doing agg it is becuase the 8 auto damage is done by not only fire but by the impact of ammo being covered in fire hitting the body of a crispy chicken vampire .The three levels of fire damage x turn is residual damage kinda like the burn status in pokemon.
                      Last edited by Leandro16; 11-13-2018, 01:50 PM.


                      Hunger pool

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                      • #26
                        I feel like comparing 1 discipline to a tremere who has every thaumaturgic path and also auspex and also dominate is extremely unfair and makes thaumaturgy look way more powerful than it actually is.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                          Thaumaturgy is like batman belt too many options some of them way better than what you can buy with the same XP and it is also very impredictable becuase it comes with rituals along the paths.

                          PD:About the shotgun doing agg it is becuase the 8 auto damage is done by not only fire but by the impact of ammo being covered in fire hitting the body of a crispy chicken vampire .The three levels of fire damage x turn is residual damage kinda like the burn status in pokemon.
                          As Kammerer mentioned - It looks like the Thaumaturgy you're describing is having everything at your fingertips at once.
                          It is more like an ACME Catalogue than a utility belt, you may be able to order anything that you want, but you don't get to carry everything at once. And each thing you order has a way around it.
                          In fact, if you do spend all your XP buying as many versatile paths as possible, you'll probably start being an XP sink, because a lot of those tricks can be only used in narrow situations or overlap with other ones that you spend XP on.

                          But I don't think I'm going to change your mind on Thaumaturgy. I'm happy to stop trying.

                          Dragonsbreath However - Yes/No - do you have a page reference for them in a book of any edition? If No, is just your opinion/houserules that you play by that it Should do full dice of Agg?
                          There's a big difference when we're trying to argue this point.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                            Dragonsbreath However - Yes/No - do you have a page reference for them in a book of any edition? If No, is just your opinion/houserules that you play by that it Should do full dice of Agg?
                            There's a big difference when we're trying to argue this point.
                            Supposedly there is information in the original The Hunter Hunted, but I couldn't find a copy.
                            Dragon’s Breath rounds:
                            These powdered-pelletized zirconium-magnesium shells turn any pump shotgun into a flamethrower. Available in many American states, but illegal in most of Europe, Dragon’s Breath ammunition
                            appears on black markets wherever vampires have been indiscreet.
                            Dragon’s Breath shells has no damage bonus (+0), but turn the damage into aggravated versus vampires, and incidentally set what they hit on fire (doing a point of Aggravated damage per round to
                            the target until put out). With factory shells, a total failure on the attack roll jams the shotgun. They have an effective range of no more than 15 or so meters.
                            V5 p380

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                            • #29
                              Hunters Hunted and number 2 talk about setting vampires alight, no no stats for Dragons Breath.

                              V5 (a significant change in system) does have that section, meaning that Dragon's Breath has a +0 damage value (where +2 is for a 22 pistol and +3 is shotgun at it's effective range) so they are saying it does a little damage, but it's agg

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                              • #30
                                Well this is what you'd really want are Raufoss (which get outlined next).

                                Raufoss 
                                Incendiary explosive rounds, such as the Raufoss, are fortunately rare outside military hands, but do show up occasionally in hunter arsenals. They have excellent range and armorpiercing capability, and usually come in calibers (12.7mm) that make any target (up to and including armored civilian cars) have a really bad day.
                                Raufoss ignores any body armor, causing +5 damage, all of it Aggravated.

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