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  • I just realized my above oppinion might seems contradictory to what I wrote in the other thread, about antes and things like Ur-Shulgi being unbeatable blood gods and how I don't like it.

    But it's actually not. I want elders and other big baddies around, for the above listed reasons, but I don't want them to be untouchable. In a general sense, of course. They could very well be untouchable for the players, at their current level and, depending on the chronicle, maybe at all.

    Thing is, in SR, even a Great Dragond could be killed. It takes tremendous ammounts of resources, but it could be done. They don't have stats, mostly, because on the level of the players, they can't amass that much firepower, so it's pointless. A Great Dragon could level a city and go toe-to-toe with armies. But it's still killable. Antes, as per Revised, are above that, they are effective gods and I don't think that's a good thing.


    If nothing worked, then let's think!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
      Eh, I think Ur-Shulgi is a fun killer.

      "Here's this thing that will change the course of the campaign world you are completely unable to affect."

      If you're going to introduce elements into the game, the PCs should be able to effect it.
      1) I'm talking about elders as a whole, not individuals, but I'm sure an argument could be made for Ur-Shugli being an issue.
      2) You can affect it, change it, but not outright beat it. Ironically, street level games (which are the focus / one-true-way for V5) need to have the unstoppable at the top to keep the down and dirty level feeling.
      3) As per 2. Also - Can werewolves beat "The Wyrm" nope, never will; it's the struggle that makes the game.
      I see this as a feature (not a bug) of role playing games over "Roll" playing games like D&D. The story isn't about winning, sometimes the best story is losing in a good way.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by PMárk View Post
        But it's actually not. I want elders and other big baddies around, for the above listed reasons, but I don't want them to be untouchable. In a general sense, of course. They could very well be untouchable for the players, at their current level and, depending on the chronicle, maybe at all.
        Then, even Ur-Shugli, fits as our Dragon. you may need to uncover proof of his evil plot, turn the rest of the clan and barter resources of the Entire Clan Tremere (or sell your soul to a Demon) but Ur-Shugli can be destroyed. Just not by only a group of PCs; they'll need the resources and backing to kill a dragon.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Illithid View Post
          2) You can affect it, change it, but not outright beat it. Ironically, street level games (which are the focus / one-true-way for V5) need to have the unstoppable at the top to keep the down and dirty level feeling.
          3) As per 2. Also - Can werewolves beat "The Wyrm" nope, never will; it's the struggle that makes the game.
          I see this as a feature (not a bug) of role playing games over "Roll" playing games like D&D. The story isn't about winning, sometimes the best story is losing in a good way.
          That's just a different flavor of the sort of "one true way"-ism people are attributing to V5.
          Last edited by Cielle; 11-27-2018, 10:35 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cielle View Post
            That's just a different flavor of the sort of "one true way"-ism people are attributing to V5.
            I respectfully disagree.

            The Previous editions could let you build up personal stats and fight someone at Ur-Shugli's level, it'll take a fair while, but an ST could allow it, or set up the coterie for it in that particular game, even though it doesn't feel (to me) that it would fit the theme of the game.
            Heck, some of the Gehenna options assume you get to take out actual antediluvians (When weakened, admittedly)

            There is no aspect of the system (that I have found) that prevents you playing that kind of game. Where as, there are numerous changes in V5 that limit the type of game that can be played. (I don't really want to rehash V5 issues in this thread though, if that's ok)

            I do stand by my statement though - "The story isn't about winning, sometimes the best story is losing in a good way."
            The story isn't about winning - Though the "Goal" of a story could be to win something (Become Prince, kill an Antideluvian), no media is entertaining if it's just "I want this" then "I get this" the story is what happens in between those points.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
              The unpopular opinion thread. Share what is true in your head or table that you think other players and Storytellers would not agree with.

              My first 20

              1. The Baali are best when they're just a bunch of evil scumbags selling souls for $$$.

              2. The Sabbat is best when they're a bunch of hypocritical fools who are totally ineffective at fighting Elders and following nonsensical paths.

              3 The Ravnos are perfectly fine if they're the Indian clan. Not so as anything else.

              4. The Anarchs are the greatest thing in Vampire: The Masquerade but get no respect from the game.

              5. The True Hand is awesome if you dial it down 20%. It should also be the Inconnu.

              6. The Followers of Set were awesome as is.

              7. The Assamites are better as a pure blood obsessed murder cult.

              8. 1E is the best Edition.

              9. Chicago by Night is the greatest supplement ever made.

              10. Crossovers are inherently awesome.

              11. Malkavians are more fun as mysterious prophets and poets than they are actually mental ill.

              12. We should all pretend the Kuei-jin don't exist like some people do the True Hand.

              13. Gary is awesome and every NPC in it is pure gold.

              14. Menele is worse than Helena.

              15. Vampires should be able to fight werewolves.

              16. Mithras should never have been diablerized and should be the ruler of the Camarilla.

              17. The thing that upsets me most in 5E is Jan Pieterzoon being killed.

              18. The Giovanni just stole the Tremere's thing.

              19. The Sabbat just stole the Anarch's thing.

              20. Saulot was a good guy even if his clan is kind of lame.
              I don't agree with everything here, and may punch you over some of it should we ever meet, but you need to know that this made me love you without even knowing you. Like family I mean. I'm married.


              Call Me Ray.

              Southern Gothic - Welcome to New Calais

              Who Wants to Live Forever – Highlander in the World of Darkness

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Little_Miss_ Serneholt View Post
                The V5 Lasombras are unplayable
                Interesting - please expand on this and tell us why they are unplayable.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Illithid View Post

                  Then, even Ur-Shugli, fits as our Dragon. you may need to uncover proof of his evil plot, turn the rest of the clan and barter resources of the Entire Clan Tremere (or sell your soul to a Demon) but Ur-Shugli can be destroyed. Just not by only a group of PCs; they'll need the resources and backing to kill a dragon.
                  To a point, yes. However, and I think that's an important distinction, in WoD, the characters have the theoretical chance of eventually reaching the same level those infinitely stronger NPCs occupy, while, in SR, you can't become a great dragon, or an immortal elf. But in WoD, they could, again, theoretically, diablerize themselves up to 4th gen and beat Ur-Shulgi, even (the HERESY) antes. They could be archamsters, they could be legendary shapeshifters.

                  No, not every chronicle have to, or even should, go to "20th level and above". But the potential should be there, IMO and no NPC should be untouchable.

                  I wouldn't even go as far as needing the whole Tremere clan for beating Ur-Shulgi. He doesn't have infinite bloodpool. He might be the most powerfull among the 4th gen. Might be. Still, a well-planned and concentrated attack should take him off, if several 4-5th gens are contributing, or other supernaturals, or even just lots and lots of firepower.

                  For me this is the two sides of the same coin about one of the fundamental truths of the setting: there's always a bigger fish, however, you can't be a fish too big for not needing to fear your peers and even smaller fish. That's why the bigger powers hide and scheme and oppress, because they know, that however absurdly strong they are, they still could be killed.


                  If nothing worked, then let's think!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                    Interesting - please expand on this and tell us why they are unplayable.
                    They made a post elsewhere on this forum stating they felt the clan bane was too crippling. Personally, I feel the criticism was a bit excessive as was the interpretation but I do agree it needed a definite clarification so as to avoid misunderstandings


                    "The only consistent wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" ~ Socrates

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                      And it's not like the Camarilla could FAIL in this and trigger a massive purge of all undead.
                      So the packs responsible bug out or die off, the Sabbat as a sect waits for the heat to die down, and smarter and more powerful packs move to occupy the new power vacuum. Besides, if the city's Camarilla power players fail to contain the situation, they're more likely than not to wipe each other out in the race to name a scapegoat for the older (and yummier!) sect-level authorities, who will show up to clean house before hunters show up. Then you have an Archon in the city with their ass hanging low in the breeze, in the middle of a city torn right down the middle by infighting, and everyone's staring right down the barrel of impending hunter to the face. That's a situation to give even the youngest and dumbest shovelhead a fang-boner for the recordbooks.

                      The Sabbat isn't exactly known for long-term strategic planning below the "Bishop" pay grade, and you don't see many Bishops or above taking to the streets in a siege, do you? It's not like the Sabbat isn't just another elder-controlled pyramid scheme, albeit one with a religion-colored coat of paint, or anything...

                      Comment


                      • - Temporis perfectly matches the vampire concept, it is conceptually perfect.

                        - The social structures of the clans and especially the Sabbat in the second edition were simply empty, no longer gloomy or terrifying.

                        "The concept of unplayable organizations as a vampire antagonist does not work.

                        - The Sabbath became more terrifying after being explained, but it seemed that they were going to collapse on their own and did not really work as antagonists against who knew what they were doing.

                        - Politics does not contradict personal horror.

                        - More disciplines is good for the scenario, not bad, split Temporis and Valer gave it more depth. And this would happen to the clans if they each won a single signature discipline.

                        - Assamite wizards are redundant with the Viziers.

                        "There is no contradiction between vampires having the concept of their clans and being unique and unrecognizable from where they came from without their clan being announced.

                        "Over time I've come to like bloodlines.

                        - Ghouls Animals should have unique powers, not disciplines.

                        "The Gargoyles' review for something other than vampires should have continued. The only vampire traits they still ought to have would be immortality and the need for blood (which could be fed by flesh as well).

                        "Mago never should have abandoned the Pillars system.

                        - Vampires should be more mystical, with some kind of delirium and more with their more erratic mysticism (for example the hug can correct defects or put in the best appearance of the victim, but this happen at random, not be able to change anything either).

                        - Road's is the deepest concept ever invented in Vampire and has no personal horror without understanding this concept.

                        Damage should not be added over another type, so aggravated damage should only be noted above other aggravated damage, no matter how much lethal damage has been done before and it is possible for one source to generate aggravated and lethal damage at the same time. Beast for example should cause 2 of Aggravated Damage and Lethal Damage Data Force).

                        - Accuracy should be used to locate the damage, reduce it or serve for later defense and not only to increase it.

                        - When the concepts of the Clans are understood in depth, they have no racist meaning.

                        - Embrace should be impossible for those who would not be able to survive alone in the vampire society (children of 5 years for example).

                        - Blood use should be painful and the hug being a condition that the vampire develops over time.

                        - Not explaining Inconnu does not create more opportunities, it only creates a scenario with a hole, because it has an important structure of action, with relevant ill-defined and contradictory impact. Alias ​​this defect placed in Assamitas and Sabá instead of the nuanced, deep and complex version that is what many people miss.

                        - Caittiffs and Humanity 0 are poorly explained.

                        - The relationship of Thaumaturgy and Ancient Witchcraft was never agreed by White Wolf and was not complicated. It was only to treat the ancient sorceress as such, one or at most four disciplines, with mechanics quite different from thaumaturgy, slower to use and to create, with exemptions not to be taught and with universal rituals and trails and some as secrets of the clans, exactly as they did with the Krains. Perhaps as four disciplines that only a few members of the clans had access to could give flavor without saturating the setting (and thus allowing the 14 clans, 3-4 access to each one).

                        - Most people err in interpreting a Malkavian because they take the craziness as the concept of the clan and the character and not just as a defect as a ventrue can only drink from a type of prey. Their central concept is the pursuit of self-belonging, a form of enlightenment that can be represented in many ways, from prophecy dealers, distant conspirators, artists and activists of a cause, even imbued warriors.

                        - Every clan is nuanced, complex and with solid, open and deep concept with accurate cultural descriptions if read enough about, especially in the sources of Dark Ages.

                        - Baali are Cthulhu Cultist and not infernalists.

                        "The Tremere are the Prophesied Black Hand."

                        "Cain is not that powerful."

                        - The Antediviluvians only became gods of the blood to about 500 years, before they were only more powerful elders. And this applies to the non-Antediluvian Tremere.

                        "The Tremere Ritual was not a hug and they became more powerful.

                        "The Black Throne was to be taken for Cain's offspring in Gehenna.

                        - Reembrace should stellarize the involved members, then being unable to embrace conventionally, but still capable of reembrace.

                        "We should have non-Cainite vampires with conventional rules like the old Gaki. And spontaneous vampires too.

                        - The Sabbat should be one-third Aztec culturally.

                        "The Capadocius should have been a clan of the Sabbath since the beginning, when the conspiracy of the ashes failed.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
                          - Temporis perfectly matches the vampire concept, it is conceptually perfect.
                          Whut? Can you explain this please?

                          Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
                          - Baali are Cthulhu Cultist and not infernalists.
                          Here, at least, you are a man after my own. That is what they are in games I run, which feature them.

                          Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
                          - The Sabbat should be one-third Aztec culturally.
                          This is an interesting notion, and a solid one. I suspect the reason it doesn't happen is because the Sabbat of the 15th Century were racists, in addition to being an Inverted Catholic Group. They had no room for paganism, even if the paganism involved ritual bloodshed.

                          Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
                          "The Capadocius should have been a clan of the Sabbath since the beginning, when the conspiracy of the ashes failed.
                          This is also a solid insight. And it points to how the setting is rather ad-hoc, and throw together as books were produced, rather than organically. Yes, surviving Cappadocians - and Salubri - should always have been a part of the Sabbat. We can do that in our home games, even if it is not part of the cannon.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                            This is an interesting notion, and a solid one. I suspect the reason it doesn't happen is because the Sabbat of the 15th Century were racists, in addition to being an Inverted Catholic Group. They had no room for paganism, even if the paganism involved ritual bloodshed.
                            The way I prefer to play it when it comes to "purist" Sabbat, is they simply did the exact same thing the Catholic church did -- assimilate local and regional practices into their own dogma and strip away its original context.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                              1. The Baali are best when they're just a bunch of evil scumbags selling souls for $$$.
                              You are just misunderstanding them, they are just a bunch of librarians and scholars who nobody wants to actually understand and just listen to Saulot's lies about them. Lucky for the kindred, that Tremere ended his lies and killed the vile diablerist and his devilish soul-sucking childers and linneage. We all now that Golconda just means "dinner for saulot"



                              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                              18. The Giovanni just stole the Tremere's thing.
                              Well, if it does not work with the prototype, you improve and redo...at least there is no white worm in Vienna. Just a very kind awesome and benevolent father figure who cares about his family.


                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                                Interesting - please expand on this and tell us why they are unplayable.
                                1). No save for recognizing a lasombra for what they are. Once you now you can just have a bike camera connected to your phone and just walk everywhere and spot out any lasombras. All trafic cameras in modern cities, cameras at ATMs, security cameras at entrences to shops, clubs, L-trains, subwaystations or mass transit will make travel around the city be impossible. Cities like London will be unable for any Lasombras to walk in. With the Big Brither society of Chhina will make it impossible for a lasomra to trael to, and border crossings are a big no no.

                                2) The roll to use technology that is audio/visual will make it very hard unless all lasombras either decide to be a survival nut who shuns technology and departs to the dark forests of the appalachians or become tech savvy and buy 5 dots in technology with relevant attributes.

                                3) If you fail at something with low dicepool, you will be screwed as your compulsion will kick in, then you wll be at -2 forever until you succeed at the same roll again for success with -2.

                                4) No other clans have a triple bane and a debilitating compulsion as well as having 20% chance of humanity stains from your disciplines. They get nothing back that will at least balance something out for all the negative things.

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